Deleted
Joined on: May 9, 2024 23:46:08 GMT -5
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2018 21:33:13 GMT -5
I watched it. It wasn’t a good show — and I didn’t expect it to be. That’s it.
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Post by Jim Cornette’s Wendy’s Order🍔 on Nov 5, 2018 1:11:09 GMT -5
I'll gladly take guys like balor, Rollins, Bryan ect. being heavyweights that are featured over watching "bigger guys" be the heavyweights similar to Hogan, Big Show, Triple H. Wrestling has evolved and it's more about athleticism, rather than huge guys with little to none athletic ability. I wouldn't say wrestling evolved. I'd say pro wrestling remains the same, but with far less talented wrestlers. Wwe on the other hand has transformed which is why they call it entertainment now and not pro wrestling. Wrestlers of yesteryear were factually far more talented. They had the athletic ability to perform but also the knowledge to be aware of what needed to be done. You dont need to kick out of each other's finishing move. You're just making your body take more damage to achieve nothing. Back in the day you had squash matches. So your star got a chance to shine at a jobbers expense. These days no one shines because guy A will beat guy B this week on television. But then the following week guy B makes guy A look pathetic. No one is a star. I've heard Bruce Prichard say wwf use to compare itself to the circus to gauge ticket prices. I think that comparison is great. The circus used to have elephants and tigers. Youd see those majestic animals and be in awe of how big and amazing they looked. Now the circus no longer exists but before they went under they gotten rid of those awesome animals. You'd go to the circus and see poodles jumping through hoops. The same has happened at wwe. You went from seeing larger than life wrestlers who could see you just by being there, to small cruiserweights. Tiny guys, who like poodles, have to flip around to maybe get your attention. They kick out of the finisher to hopefully gain the win? It's not for nothing. I'd say those are also only really used in a grudge match of sorts, or where what's on the line is something of importance. Bragging rights, title or title opportunity, qualifying match of sorts. I think we can agree that the industry as a whole has evolved. Some for the better, some not so much. But it just seems like either evolve with the time, as they have done, or get left behind. Wrestling has really always been entertainment. They were never actually fighting, despite a handful of shoots in some matches, and the audience was eventually opened up to the fact that the athletes were not actually hurting one another. I think today's athletes as far more talented and just as knowledgeable as wrestlers from decades ago. That's not saying they all are, but ones in prominent positions within their companies certainly know what needs to be done and how to do that and tell the story.
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Post by FLUX '97 on Nov 5, 2018 7:00:26 GMT -5
I'll gladly take guys like balor, Rollins, Bryan ect. being heavyweights that are featured over watching "bigger guys" be the heavyweights similar to Hogan, Big Show, Triple H. Wrestling has evolved and it's more about athleticism, rather than huge guys with little to none athletic ability. I wouldn't say wrestling evolved. I'd say pro wrestling remains the same, but with far less talented wrestlers. Wwe on the other hand has transformed which is why they call it entertainment now and not pro wrestling. Wrestlers of yesteryear were factually far more talented. They had the athletic ability to perform but also the knowledge to be aware of what needed to be done. You dont need to kick out of each other's finishing move. You're just making your body take more damage to achieve nothing. Back in the day you had squash matches. So your star got a chance to shine at a jobbers expense. These days no one shines because guy A will beat guy B this week on television. But then the following week guy B makes guy A look pathetic. No one is a star. I've heard Bruce Prichard say wwf use to compare itself to the circus to gauge ticket prices. I think that comparison is great. The circus used to have elephants and tigers. Youd see those majestic animals and be in awe of how big and amazing they looked. Now the circus no longer exists but before they went under they gotten rid of those awesome animals. You'd go to the circus and see poodles jumping through hoops. The same has happened at wwe. You went from seeing larger than life wrestlers who could see you just by being there, to small cruiserweights. Tiny guys, who like poodles, have to flip around to maybe get your attention.
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Post by FLUX '97 on Nov 5, 2018 10:03:41 GMT -5
He can't be out of touch when they put the Universal Championship on Brock again. And needed to call in Hulk Hogan HHH, Shawn Michaels, Kane and The Undertaker to help sell shows. The Crown Prince paid dumptrucks of money for DX, Kane and Taker to work the show. And Hogan isn’t going to be wrestling ever again so...
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Post by greenjack1992 on Nov 5, 2018 11:01:45 GMT -5
I didn't watch and I won't be watching. How was HBK? Was he still the showstopper or was it just sad?
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PVA
Main Eventer
Too hot to handle and too cold to hold
Joined on: Apr 12, 2004 15:33:20 GMT -5
Posts: 3,120
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Post by PVA on Nov 5, 2018 11:50:10 GMT -5
It's more about acrobatics and cheering for yourself these days. Guys hit devastating moves only for the opponents to kick out. Not every match is the main event. If you're in the opening match or mid card as soon as a big move is hit that should be the end of it. Instead everyone wants to kick out. It gets boring and cheapens special moves. Plus I'm not a fan of the cruiserweights being featured as Heavyweights. We need bigger wrestlers. I watched because it was an event held in a very questionable location. So it was historic for that reason. I wanted to see how much pandering wwe would do to Saudi Arabia. And well, I pay for the network so why not watch it? It seems like I pay for 2 to 4 months with out watching anything new. And even then there are weeks at a time that I dont even watch the old stuff. I'll gladly take guys like balor, Rollins, Bryan ect. being heavyweights that are featured over watching "bigger guys" be the heavyweights similar to Hogan, Big Show, Triple H. Wrestling has evolved and it's more about athleticism, rather than huge guys with little to none athletic ability. We don’t necessarily need more big guys like years back but even the big guys, while most less athletic then today, told a story in the ring better. Most of today’s guys do a bunch of moves & spots and half the time they mean nothing. I’m generalizing because there are exceptions and great matches still today. But in ring storytelling isn’t better now then back then.
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Post by The American Daydream on Nov 5, 2018 14:17:07 GMT -5
I'll gladly take guys like balor, Rollins, Bryan ect. being heavyweights that are featured over watching "bigger guys" be the heavyweights similar to Hogan, Big Show, Triple H. Wrestling has evolved and it's more about athleticism, rather than huge guys with little to none athletic ability. We don’t necessarily need more big guys like years back but even the big guys, while most less athletic then today, told a story in the ring better. Most of today’s guys do a bunch of moves & spots and half the time they mean nothing. I’m generalizing because there are exceptions and great matches still today. But in ring storytelling isn’t better now then back then. This. Even people that werent extremely technically sound like The Rock, Hogan, Savage and Stone Cold were massive stars bc they had character and could tell a story in the ring. They didnt need to do somersaults and flips all the time. We just wanted to see them act and beat the crap out of each other with fists.
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Post by Crossfit Jesus on Nov 5, 2018 16:58:35 GMT -5
I think we got the wrestling part of WWE down. We just need to get the Entertainment part better like better characters. Most wrestlers character is just they’re a great wrestler.
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Post by Halloween King on Nov 5, 2018 19:15:18 GMT -5
He can't be out of touch when they put the Universal Championship on Brock again. And needed to call in Hulk Hogan HHH, Shawn Michaels, Kane and The Undertaker to help sell shows. The Crown Prince paid dumptrucks of money for DX, Kane and Taker to work the show. And Hogan isn’t going to be wrestling ever again so... First off, yes. The children are the ones out of touch 🤣 Secondly it speaks volumes for how good Hogan is that a billionaire Saudi would be willing to shell out big bucks just to watch Hogan's entrance and hear him speak. You could offer me tickets to the next wrestlemania or you could offer me a meet and greet with Hogan and it would be an easy decision. I'd pick the meet and greet with Hulk in a heartbeat.
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Post by Halloween King on Nov 5, 2018 19:30:55 GMT -5
I wouldn't say wrestling evolved. I'd say pro wrestling remains the same, but with far less talented wrestlers. Wwe on the other hand has transformed which is why they call it entertainment now and not pro wrestling. Wrestlers of yesteryear were factually far more talented. They had the athletic ability to perform but also the knowledge to be aware of what needed to be done. You dont need to kick out of each other's finishing move. You're just making your body take more damage to achieve nothing. Back in the day you had squash matches. So your star got a chance to shine at a jobbers expense. These days no one shines because guy A will beat guy B this week on television. But then the following week guy B makes guy A look pathetic. No one is a star. I've heard Bruce Prichard say wwf use to compare itself to the circus to gauge ticket prices. I think that comparison is great. The circus used to have elephants and tigers. Youd see those majestic animals and be in awe of how big and amazing they looked. Now the circus no longer exists but before they went under they gotten rid of those awesome animals. You'd go to the circus and see poodles jumping through hoops. The same has happened at wwe. You went from seeing larger than life wrestlers who could see you just by being there, to small cruiserweights. Tiny guys, who like poodles, have to flip around to maybe get your attention. They kick out of the finisher to hopefully gain the win? It's not for nothing. I'd say those are also only really used in a grudge match of sorts, or where what's on the line is something of importance. Bragging rights, title or title opportunity, qualifying match of sorts. I think we can agree that the industry as a whole has evolved. Some for the better, some not so much. But it just seems like either evolve with the time, as they have done, or get left behind. Wrestling has really always been entertainment. They were never actually fighting, despite a handful of shoots in some matches, and the audience was eventually opened up to the fact that the athletes were not actually hurting one another. I think today's athletes as far more talented and just as knowledgeable as wrestlers from decades ago. That's not saying they all are, but ones in prominent positions within their companies certainly know what needs to be done and how to do that and tell the story. I could see how you would think today's pro wrestler is more talented. They do flips and jumps! It's awesome acrobatics. But in reality wrestlers of yesteryear are far superior. They had to come up with their own moves, their own names, and their own promos. If a guy sucked back in the day he was done. The greats were able to travel from one territory to the next. These days guys come out of a cookie cutter. If they belly flop wwe sends them back to the cookie cutter. Everything is given to them. Wwe dictates what they can and cant do. Wwe tells them what to say. And wwe tells them who they will be. Once wwe has processed a guy through the machine that guy is done. Very few wrestlers continue to wrestle after wwe, because they have no idea how to proceed once the support system is gone. Back in the wwf days once guys finished up they went off to work in other promotions, because they knew what they were doing and they were better wrestlers back then. I'll do one final comparison. The wwe champion. Today its AJ Styles who is 5'9 and 200 pounds. Back in the day it was Hogan who was about a foot taller than AJ and about 100lbs bigger than AJ. Aj, was a guy that before wwe, was stagnant in the mid card of TNA (a dieing promotion). Hogan, before wwf, was the top guy in the AWA (a booming promotion). So where does anyone get off saying today's wrestler is better? Better at doing flips maybe, but not better at pro wrestling.
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Post by TheSystem 1.5 on Nov 5, 2018 20:10:18 GMT -5
I could see how you would think today's pro wrestler is more talented. They do flips and jumps! It's awesome acrobatics. But in reality wrestlers of yesteryear are far superior. They had to come up with their own moves, their own names, and their own promos. If a guy sucked back in the day he was done. The greats were able to travel from one territory to the next. These days guys come out of a cookie cutter. If they belly flop wwe sends them back to the cookie cutter. Everything is given to them. Wwe dictates what they can and cant do. Wwe tells them what to say. And wwe tells them who they will be. Once wwe has processed a guy through the machine that guy is done. Very few wrestlers continue to wrestle after wwe, because they have no idea how to proceed once the support system is gone. Back in the wwf days once guys finished up they went off to work in other promotions, because they knew what they were doing and they were better wrestlers back then. I'll do one final comparison. The wwe champion. Today its AJ Styles who is 5'9 and 200 pounds. Back in the day it was Hogan who was about a foot taller than AJ and about 100lbs bigger than AJ. Aj, was a guy that before wwe, was stagnant in the mid card of TNA (a dieing promotion). Hogan, before wwf, was the top guy in the AWA (a booming promotion). So where does anyone get off saying today's wrestler is better? Better at doing flips maybe, but not better at pro wrestling.
Exactly if WWE was really good as it's made out to be they wouldn't need HHH, Hulk Hogan, THE Rock, Kurt Angle, Big Show Kane HBK and the Undertaker. The Fact is the truth hurts, and what Kevin Nash said in recent interview is true. Nobody care about the younger guys. Except for half this site who'd rather watch guys like Rollins then guys like Hogan
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Post by King Richius on Nov 5, 2018 20:36:03 GMT -5
They kick out of the finisher to hopefully gain the win? It's not for nothing. I'd say those are also only really used in a grudge match of sorts, or where what's on the line is something of importance. Bragging rights, title or title opportunity, qualifying match of sorts. I think we can agree that the industry as a whole has evolved. Some for the better, some not so much. But it just seems like either evolve with the time, as they have done, or get left behind. Wrestling has really always been entertainment. They were never actually fighting, despite a handful of shoots in some matches, and the audience was eventually opened up to the fact that the athletes were not actually hurting one another. I think today's athletes as far more talented and just as knowledgeable as wrestlers from decades ago. That's not saying they all are, but ones in prominent positions within their companies certainly know what needs to be done and how to do that and tell the story. I could see how you would think today's pro wrestler is more talented. They do flips and jumps! It's awesome acrobatics. But in reality wrestlers of yesteryear are far superior. They had to come up with their own moves, their own names, and their own promos. If a guy sucked back in the day he was done. The greats were able to travel from one territory to the next. These days guys come out of a cookie cutter. If they belly flop wwe sends them back to the cookie cutter. Everything is given to them. Wwe dictates what they can and cant do. Wwe tells them what to say. And wwe tells them who they will be. Once wwe has processed a guy through the machine that guy is done. Very few wrestlers continue to wrestle after wwe, because they have no idea how to proceed once the support system is gone. Back in the wwf days once guys finished up they went off to work in other promotions, because they knew what they were doing and they were better wrestlers back then. I'll do one final comparison. The wwe champion. Today its AJ Styles who is 5'9 and 200 pounds. Back in the day it was Hogan who was about a foot taller than AJ and about 100lbs bigger than AJ. Aj, was a guy that before wwe, was stagnant in the mid card of TNA (a dieing promotion). Hogan, before wwf, was the top guy in the AWA (a booming promotion). So where does anyone get off saying today's wrestler is better? Better at doing flips maybe, but not better at pro wrestling. Actually, AJ was coming off a run as world champion of the second biggest promotion in the world, NJPW, and centerpiece of the hottest faction in wrestling, the Bullet Club, before coming to WWE. Don't you just hate it when facts don't back up your opinion?
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Post by Halloween King on Nov 5, 2018 20:58:28 GMT -5
I could see how you would think today's pro wrestler is more talented. They do flips and jumps! It's awesome acrobatics. But in reality wrestlers of yesteryear are far superior. They had to come up with their own moves, their own names, and their own promos. If a guy sucked back in the day he was done. The greats were able to travel from one territory to the next. These days guys come out of a cookie cutter. If they belly flop wwe sends them back to the cookie cutter. Everything is given to them. Wwe dictates what they can and cant do. Wwe tells them what to say. And wwe tells them who they will be. Once wwe has processed a guy through the machine that guy is done. Very few wrestlers continue to wrestle after wwe, because they have no idea how to proceed once the support system is gone. Back in the wwf days once guys finished up they went off to work in other promotions, because they knew what they were doing and they were better wrestlers back then. I'll do one final comparison. The wwe champion. Today its AJ Styles who is 5'9 and 200 pounds. Back in the day it was Hogan who was about a foot taller than AJ and about 100lbs bigger than AJ. Aj, was a guy that before wwe, was stagnant in the mid card of TNA (a dieing promotion). Hogan, before wwf, was the top guy in the AWA (a booming promotion). So where does anyone get off saying today's wrestler is better? Better at doing flips maybe, but not better at pro wrestling. Actually, AJ was coming off a run as world champion of the second biggest promotion in the world, NJPW, and centerpiece of the hottest faction in wrestling, the Bullet Club, before coming to WWE. Don't you just hate it when facts don't back up your opinion? Hogan was also the top guy in Japan so including Japan in an argument here is a moot point. Aj was stagnant in TNA, Hogan won the AWA title. This is what the two accomplished before going to wwf/wwe in the United states. Its facts not opinions here bud.
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Post by King Richius on Nov 5, 2018 21:03:18 GMT -5
Actually, AJ was coming off a run as world champion of the second biggest promotion in the world, NJPW, and centerpiece of the hottest faction in wrestling, the Bullet Club, before coming to WWE. Don't you just hate it when facts don't back up your opinion? Hogan was also the top guy in Japan so including Japan in an argument here is a moot point. And you completely missed the point. I'm done here because I could have a more stimulating conversation with a brick wall.
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Post by Halloween King on Nov 5, 2018 21:05:26 GMT -5
Hogan was also the top guy in Japan so including Japan in an argument here is a moot point. And you completely missed the point. I'm done here because I could have a more stimulating conversation with a brick wall. I get it. You love AJ. This hit a sore spot with you.
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Quazimoto
Superstar
Joined on: Feb 4, 2014 12:37:37 GMT -5
Posts: 993
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Post by Quazimoto on Nov 5, 2018 21:13:25 GMT -5
Just wanted to chime in a little in the whole wwe stars of yesteryear vs wwe stars of today debate...
We really don't know how talented or not talented today's wwe superstars are. They are micromanage and stop/start booked to death. They simply aren't allowed to truly shine because wwe management has a hand in every aspect of the on screen personas. Creativity and individuality have been sacrificed in favor of a largely plug and play style of good guy vs bad guy. Sure, there are a few genuine stand outs who break through the molds, but by and large, everyone plays one of a handful of basic character types with small variations.
Yesterday's stars seem more memorable because they were allowed the opportunity to be unique. There was only one Big Boss Man. One Jake The Snake. One Million Dollar Man. One Ultimate Warrior. One Mr Perfect. They were larger than life personalities and remembered fondly because they were created to be memorable. Today's stars aren't as memorable because they simply aren't allowed to be as unique.
I firmly believe that if wwe would simply allow their superstars greater creative freedom today, you would see a much more memorable, much more "must see" product.
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Post by IRS on Nov 5, 2018 21:42:51 GMT -5
Just wanted to chime in a little in the whole wwe stars of yesteryear vs wwe stars of today debate... We really don't know how talented or not talented today's wwe superstars are. They are micromanage and stop/start booked to death. They simply aren't allowed to truly shine because wwe management has a hand in every aspect of the on screen personas. Creativity and individuality have been sacrificed in favor of a largely plug and play style of good guy vs bad guy. Sure, there are a few genuine stand outs who break through the molds, but by and large, everyone plays one of a handful of basic character types with small variations. Yesterday's stars seem more memorable because they were allowed the opportunity to be unique. There was only one Big Boss Man. One Jake The Snake. One Million Dollar Man. One Ultimate Warrior. One Mr Perfect. They were larger than life personalities and remembered fondly because they were created to be memorable. Today's stars aren't as memorable because they simply aren't allowed to be as unique. I firmly believe that if wwe would simply allow their superstars greater creative freedom today, you would see a much more memorable, much more "must see" product. blaming booking is a cop out Chris Jericho was given a list and had the fans eating out of the palm of his hands. Point is if you are good enough you should make anything work. Yep. That's why Steve Austin was the biggest star in the world as The Ringmaster. Booking doesn't matter at all.
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Post by IRS on Nov 5, 2018 22:06:43 GMT -5
Yep. That's why Steve Austin was the biggest star in the world as The Ringmaster. Booking doesn't matter at all. Becky Lynch was booked like crap for the last two years and has been able to say over. So no Booking doesn't matter having a connection with the fans does. Roman Reigns has been booked as the top star of the company for the last 3 years, despite being booed by 70% of the audience. All the while his teammates in the Shield have stayed far consistently more over than him with fans, and flatout outperformed him in Rollins' case. But guess what, when WWE drills into your head long enough that one is a bigger deal than the other, eventually the audience is going to believe it.
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Post by The American Daydream on Nov 6, 2018 3:07:38 GMT -5
Becky Lynch was booked like crap for the last two years and has been able to say over. So no Booking doesn't matter having a connection with the fans does. Roman Reigns has been booked as the top star of the company for the last 3 years, despite being booed by 70% of the audience. All the while his teammates in the Shield have stayed far consistently more over than him with fans, and flatout outperformed him in Rollins' case. But guess what, when WWE drills into your head long enough that one is a bigger deal than the other, eventually the audience is going to believe it. Idk I feel like you contradicted yourself because Roman has had some really good booking but still isnt more over than his Shield Mates. Meaning booking isnt the end all be all for getting over.
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Post by IRS on Nov 6, 2018 5:01:09 GMT -5
Roman Reigns has been booked as the top star of the company for the last 3 years, despite being booed by 70% of the audience. All the while his teammates in the Shield have stayed far consistently more over than him with fans, and flatout outperformed him in Rollins' case. But guess what, when WWE drills into your head long enough that one is a bigger deal than the other, eventually the audience is going to believe it. Idk I feel like you contradicted yourself because Roman has had some really good booking but still isnt more over than his Shield Mates. Meaning booking isnt the end all be all for getting over. Personally, I think the vast majority of Roman's booking has been some of the most forced and contrived crap WWE has ever done. But at the end of the day, he's one of the top merch sellers, and to the general audience, he is 'The Guy'. Because WWE tells you he is. Zack Ryder was the most over person on the roster in the Fall of 2011 - literally out popping The Rock. But they treated him as a joke, buried him, destroyed all his credibility. And what has he done since? Next to nothing. At the end of the day, you need both good booking and the ability to connect with an audience to do anything significant. You can be the most charismatic person in the world, but if you're booked like a joke long enough, you'll be seen as a joke. If you're booked as the next Messiah, but you're as entertaining as a box of rocks, you won't be booked that way for long.
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