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Post by The Sexy Psychotic on Jul 29, 2019 15:41:52 GMT -5
We see alot of criticism these days; creative is haphazardly booked on a weekly basis, characters aren't complex enough, movesets are far too paper thin and similar, commentary, 50-50 booking, constant injuries, overuse of gimmick matches...I could go on. And sure all of these things get to me, they all contribute to my disconnection to the current product but the main aspect and one that I never see brought up is the matches.
Simply put; matches these days just have no psychology, and if you add that along with the above complaints and you get matches that are just a slog. I dont know if it's a bookers problem or the wrestlers themselves but every match just uses the same tropes, you can rely on an announce table breaking in a PPV main event, you can count on a guard rail being broken, ect. Every match seems like a repeat from the week before, or the month before. We live in an age where the roster is bursting with talent, moreso than ever before tbh. Yet none of them, really, can put on consistently good, different and diverse matches.
Maybe I'm ranting and I apologise if I am, and maybe I'm being an old timer comparing the matches now to a time past, but I just....I just cant even get through a match now thanks to it all being the same crap, running through motions. No passion, no reason for anything and no psychology.
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Post by punksnotdead on Jul 29, 2019 17:05:39 GMT -5
I think we’ve been so desensitized to great wrestling with no story because WWE has given us so much of it over the last 5 plus years.
For me, it’s not a lack of psychology in the ring, either. For me, it’s a lack of story around matches that make me care about the two guys in the ring. Who are these guys, why should I get behind them, and in a world of gray characters, or no characters, who is the antagonist and the protagonist? WWE lacks fundamental, quality, stories.
The athletes in the ring are incredible in 2019. They can do things guys 20 years ago could have never imagined, and do it on an almost nightly basis. But WWE isn’t New Japan. I think Raw moving to more 3-5 minute matches is the right direction. Save the longer matches for PPVs. Use Raw to make me care about the characters on the roster, and then I can care about said characters winning or losing against each other on PPV.
I don’t care about the matches. They’re mostly all 4 star borefests. WWE is missing the drama, the investment. I don’t blame it on the in-ring work. The style is the style now. We’re missing the showmanship, the uniqueness, and the pageantry.
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Post by LA Times on Jul 29, 2019 17:11:59 GMT -5
No youre not. We see the same matches every week, 50/50 booking makes them meaningless, the safe style sucks and everything is 2/3 Falls now.
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Post by TheLastDude on Jul 29, 2019 17:14:25 GMT -5
It's not that the matches are bad...it's that they don't matter.
I think Punk stated it pretty solidly above me.
I can only say: 1) Make us care about the characters. 2) Knock off the 50-50 booking. 3) Give the wrestlers a gimmick or something...anything to chew on rather than just "I'm here to win, LOL!" 4) Clearly define the heels and faces and get rid of weekly turns. (Especially when it comes to the women) 5) Build...build...build. 6) Bring back jobbers AND squash matches.
Edit- 7) I swear to God...stop doing slight variations of the same matches from the PPV on the show right AFTER the PPV. Edit- 8) Rotate your people out week to week. There are a hug ton of people on the roster right now, but we see the same people every week. Give some people a week or so off to let their feud simmer. It's bad enough we only have a few weeks to build to a PPV, but when we see two guys wrestle in different matches every week, week after week, those big PPV matches just don't matter. Here's an idea. How about we don't cram every feud into four weeks? If you rotate your people out then that feud can last eight weeks and when they finally fight at the NEXT PPV, it seems like a bigger deal.
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Post by theicwguy on Jul 29, 2019 17:44:32 GMT -5
Meltzer says hi👋
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Post by cordless2016 on Jul 29, 2019 18:55:56 GMT -5
Great post OP. This has been something I’ve been saying for years. We have a bunch of spot monkeys with no characters. There’s nothing to care about.
This is why I’ve always said that Ambrose is the best in-ring performer of The Shield. He’s not as flashy as the other two, but watch his RoadBlock match with HHH and you’ll see why he’s one of the best performers today.
I’ve seen Rollins take major beatings, only to no sell seconds later. He’s not the only one, but it’s rampant with today’s roster.
I feel that Owens, Zayn, Wyatt, Orton, AJ, Rusev, and Kofi are the only guys today who consistently show ring psychology in their matches (Ambrose was in there too before he left). More guys need to cut back on the “OMG” moves that are performed in 95% of matches today and focus on drawing in fans with their “stories” that past stars were so good at doing.
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Thunder Chunky
Main Eventer
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Post by Thunder Chunky on Jul 30, 2019 0:21:35 GMT -5
I have always cared more about the stories. The matches have always been less interesting to me.
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marklud
Main Eventer
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Post by marklud on Jul 30, 2019 0:39:45 GMT -5
We see alot of criticism these days; creative is haphazardly booked on a weekly basis, characters aren't complex enough, movesets are far too paper thin and similar, commentary, 50-50 booking, constant injuries, overuse of gimmick matches...I could go on. And sure all of these things get to me, they all contribute to my disconnection to the current product but the main aspect and one that I never see brought up is the matches. Simply put; matches these days just have no psychology, and if you add that along with the above complaints and you get matches that are just a slog. I dont know if it's a bookers problem or the wrestlers themselves but every match just uses the same tropes, you can rely on an announce table breaking in a PPV main event, you can count on a guard rail being broken, ect. Every match seems like a repeat from the week before, or the month before. We live in an age where the roster is bursting with talent, moreso than ever before tbh. Yet none of them, really, can put on consistently good, different and diverse matches. Maybe I'm ranting and I apologise if I am, and maybe I'm being an old timer comparing the matches now to a time past, but I just....I just cant even get through a match now thanks to it all being the same crap, running through motions. No passion, no reason for anything and no psychology. You've got to give something other than WWE a shot. Modern NJPW tells stories in the ring better than any other promotion I've ever seen. They're exciting, athletic and pretty much the opposite of the cookie-cutter WWE match style these days. It's not just high spots; Okada does nothing crazy but it's all about how perfectly he executes the moves (a simple dropkick gets one of his biggest pops of the match every time!) and WHEN he places it in the match to get the biggest reaction possible. That's all psychology. He reminds me of Flair in that regard. If I see a WWE match I can absolutely tell you when the heat, fire, high spots and comebacks are going to come. They follow the same pattern. I don't see that changing until Vince and/or the agent structure goes away. And it's not just NJPW that's worth checking out if you want better matches that don't follow the same formula every time. Rev Pro, Stardom, AJPW main events (check out Kento Miyahara!) ... it's easier than ever to watch this stuff. EDIT: I left out the BEST example somehow. Dean Ambrose was boring as hell in WWE and had those same cookie cutter matches. Now he's in New Japan and has had the three best matches of his career in a matter of like two weeks. Check out his match vs. Ishii. Ambrose is an entirely different person without the restrictions WWE places on its athletes; the difference in his match quality is the biggest and most obvious critique of WWE match style and restrictions that I've ever seen.
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Newsted
Superstar
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Post by Newsted on Jul 30, 2019 3:31:27 GMT -5
The matches all feel very much the same.
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Post by LA Times on Jul 30, 2019 10:11:09 GMT -5
Great post OP. This has been something I’ve been saying for years. We have a bunch of spot monkeys with no characters. There’s nothing to care about. This is why I’ve always said that Ambrose is the best in-ring performer of The Shield. He’s not as flashy as the other two, but watch his RoadBlock match with HHH and you’ll see why he’s one of the best performers today. I’ve seen Rollins take major beatings, only to no sell seconds later. He’s not the only one, but it’s rampant with today’s roster. I feel that Owens, Zayn, Wyatt, Orton, AJ, Rusev, and Kofi are the only guys today who consistently show ring psychology in their matches (Ambrose was in there too before he left). More guys need to cut back on the “OMG” moves that are performed in 95% of matches today and focus on drawing in fans with their “stories” that past stars were so good at doing. When I had to describe the Cruiserweight Division to somebody who just saw it, that was the exact description I gave them.
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Post by Next Man’s Knowing Rock on Jul 30, 2019 10:56:50 GMT -5
For too many years, they’ve relied on Workrate Guy #79 vs Moveset Guy #33 to fill hours and hours of the TV time. I don’t know if that’s because Vince rips up the script just before the show when there’s no time left to write stuff... or it’s to make it more appealing to non-English speaking audiences... or something else. But piling so many filler matches into every show has absolutely made the matches unappealing. I’m already sick of Ricochet vs AJ instead of excited for it.
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havoc7179
Main Eventer
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Post by havoc7179 on Jul 30, 2019 11:16:24 GMT -5
I prefer this safe style. I don't need to be reading about how in 5 years Daniel kills Brie and Birdie because of head injuries. Plus, it makes for the insane spots like where one Uso superplexed Dash (or was it Scott?) onto the Good Brothers and other members of the Revival and Usos look more spectacular.
What I don't like about this safe style is the constant no selling of finishers when you only have one finisher. Cena just has the AA. Watching an opponent kick out of 1, then 2, then 3 and then 4 doesn't do much for me--unless Cena changes it up with an avalanche AA or a AA into another AA. Then it makes sense. At least people kick out of the Phenomenal Forearm or the Styles Clash, there's another finish in his arsenal. I'm glad Cena developed the lightning fist because it adds another finish.
However, just because they wrestle a safe style doesn't mean they tell a story. Fans today seem to be down on it. If you watched the last few AJ Styles and Daniel Bryan encounters, a story was being told in ring and fans weren't into it. They want the sizzle. They want the spot fests.
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havoc7179
Main Eventer
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Post by havoc7179 on Jul 30, 2019 11:51:31 GMT -5
It's not that the matches are bad...it's that they don't matter. 6) Bring back jobbers AND squash matches. Curious as to your thoughts on Braun and Viking Warrior Raiders Machine beating random teams and jobbers the past few months.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2019 13:54:00 GMT -5
^ In this day and age you can't have an entire show full of squash matches, especially one that is 3 hours long. Viewership would be worse than it is now. Speaking of viewership, I love how it went down like crazy after last week.
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Post by TheLastDude on Jul 30, 2019 14:54:25 GMT -5
It's not that the matches are bad...it's that they don't matter. 6) Bring back jobbers AND squash matches. Curious as to your thoughts on Braun and Viking Warrior Raiders Machine beating random teams and jobbers the past few months. I think it's a perfect buildup for the Vikings. My concern is for the future when they chump them out to a hotter team and then turn them into a comedy act where they come out blowing vuvuzelas. For Braun...I think it's too little, too late. Much like Rusev and Cesaro, I think he's beyond huggered. I'm not saying every match on every card has to be a star versus a jobber, but the company needs to not only make PPV matches feel special, they need matches ON Raw and SDL to seem special too. If a main event and some grudge matches are intermingled with stars showing off their goods against local enhancement guys or guys from the performance center, it'll lend a bit more credibility to some stars...just like it did in the past.
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jul 30, 2019 15:38:08 GMT -5
My main issue is the 2/3 falls matches. They bore me to tears and shouldn't be a weekly thing.
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Post by bababooey on Jul 30, 2019 16:33:18 GMT -5
What I think hurts matches a lot is this concept of huge movesets. People get mad fun of for only doing 5 or 6 moves but you can tell a great story with only that. One of my favorite matches is Jake the Snake vs Undertaker at Wrestlemania 8. They did absolutely nothing crazy and just kept it simple. But for me it told a good story and I bought into it.
The past maybe 15-20 years guys are so focused on getting all they’re signature moves in that they always end up with the same setup and pretty much the same match. It takes me out of it when I can tell exactly what’s going to happen just based on where in the ring they are.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 7:08:53 GMT -5
What I think hurts matches a lot is this concept of huge movesets. People get mad fun of for only doing 5 or 6 moves but you can tell a great story with only that. One of my favorite matches is Jake the Snake vs Undertaker at Wrestlemania 8. They did absolutely nothing crazy and just kept it simple. But for me it told a good story and I bought into it. The past maybe 15-20 years guys are so focused on getting all they’re signature moves in that they always end up with the same setup and pretty much the same match. It takes me out of it when I can tell exactly what’s going to happen just based on where in the ring they are. I think a lot of guys today want Meltzer to give their match 5 stars. Back in the day nobody cared about that.
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Post by marino13 on Jul 31, 2019 8:56:01 GMT -5
What I think hurts matches a lot is this concept of huge movesets. People get mad fun of for only doing 5 or 6 moves but you can tell a great story with only that. One of my favorite matches is Jake the Snake vs Undertaker at Wrestlemania 8. They did absolutely nothing crazy and just kept it simple. But for me it told a good story and I bought into it. The past maybe 15-20 years guys are so focused on getting all they’re signature moves in that they always end up with the same setup and pretty much the same match. It takes me out of it when I can tell exactly what’s going to happen just based on where in the ring they are. I think a lot of guys today want Meltzer to give their match 5 stars. Back in the day nobody cared about that. I'll never understand it, but you're right. Far too many can't make up their own mind, they have to wait for Dave to tell them what to think. Then the talent sees what is getting 7 stars elsewhere and they try to match it to get fans talking. If they slow things down to tell a story, people online complain about the "WWE style".
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Post by k5 on Jul 31, 2019 9:09:03 GMT -5
What I think hurts matches a lot is this concept of huge movesets. People get mad fun of for only doing 5 or 6 moves but you can tell a great story with only that. One of my favorite matches is Jake the Snake vs Undertaker at Wrestlemania 8. They did absolutely nothing crazy and just kept it simple. But for me it told a good story and I bought into it. The past maybe 15-20 years guys are so focused on getting all they’re signature moves in that they always end up with the same setup and pretty much the same match. It takes me out of it when I can tell exactly what’s going to happen just based on where in the ring they are. I think a lot of guys today want Meltzer to give their match 5 stars. Back in the day nobody cared about that. while I think this was hugely the case in TNA and of course the indies and some of Japan, the WWE controls their product WAY too much to try and assert that this is down to the wrestlers trying to appease meltzer. this is 100% wwe’s doing.
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