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Post by man on May 8, 2009 13:41:19 GMT -5
OK, so I got a question for you guys...
Why do you feel Hogan should've passed the torch to Bret in 1993?
There was no reason to. Here's why:
1. Hogan "got the torch" from Andre at WM 3. "Officially" that's what cemented him as the number 1 guy. He passed the torch back to the Ultimate Warrior at WM 6. Clean loss in a classic match, one of the biggest ever. Why should Hogan have to pass the torch AGAIN, just because the Warrior dropped the ball? He got the big put over by Andre in 1987 and then did the same for the Warrior in 1990. After WM 6 Hogan didn't owe anybody any torch passing. He paid his debt.
2. Bret was a midcard "small guy" in the 80's. The Warrior was a believable guy that could beat Hogan clean. Bret was not. So why would Hogan wan to tarnish his power image even further by clenly loosing to a much smaller wrestler?
3. Bret got his "torch passing", even though everyone (including himself) seems to overlook it. He beat Ric Flair, clean, with his finishing hold for the championship. Seriously! Flair! In the 80's and early 90's, it was Hogan and Flair, those were the biggest names in wrestling. So why the hell is Bret crying that nobody passed him the torch when Flair did just that!!!
Seriously, Bret is a crybaby b*tch sometimes! "Everybody screwed him"! Hogan did not owe him a put over, he already "passed the torch" once. Flair did put him over, in a championship match with a clean win using his finisher, and in Canada! It don't get any better, Bret beat THE submission guy of the 80's. So what the hell is his problem? Got screwed by Shawn? Hell, Shawn had 10 times the charisma that Bret did on his best day. People were entertained by Shawn, that's why he was the bigger star. Bret just needs to stop talking!
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Post by DZ: WF Legacy on May 8, 2009 15:04:30 GMT -5
Wasn't Bret talking about torch passing in general, not necessarily to himself in that interview?
And Bret would stop talking about the screwjob so much if every interview he has would stop bringing it up for him to answer.
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Raine
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Post by Raine on May 8, 2009 15:07:51 GMT -5
I think Hogan "regained" the torch after Vince put the belt back on him at WM7, due to the Warrior's failure to draw, I think putting Bret over at KOTR or Summerslam 1993 would have cemented Bret as the new number 1 guy in wrestling. I agree Flair putting Bret over was huge retrospectively, but back in 1993, people such as myself was living in the WWF bubble and wasn't really aware of Flair's success in the NWA/WCW due to Vince refusing to acknowledge there was another wrestling organization out there. Where as Hogan was still "the man" in the WWF at that time due to his success there. I don't understand why Hogan couldn't have put Bret over as Hogan at that time was focused only on becoming a full time actor.
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Post by man on May 8, 2009 15:40:07 GMT -5
Could've depended on his backstage relationship with Bret. Or with Vince. Hogan was very sparatic in WWF in 1993. So, we really don't know. Bret could've talked trash about the belt being given to Hogan at WM9. Anything is possible.
But from Hogan's point of view, he already did a clean job to a rising star. And Warrior was believable as someone who could cleanly beat Hogan. Bret wasn't. At that time, WWF hasn't moved into that whole "smaller and more technical wrestler" era.
Bret does say that their match was planned for SS '93 and even promotional shots were taken of Hogan and Bret both grabbing for the belt. That was going to be the next passing of the torch. So why did it not happen? Could be ego. Could be money. Could be a dispute over the match. I'm sure they would've wanted Bret to beat Hogan with a sharpshooter. I'm sure Hogan did not want his last match to be a clean tap out.
Would've been a classic match? Yes. But I can also see why Hogan would not want to do it. When you're in the company only once in a while and you know you're leaving... it's easy not to care.
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Post by k5 on May 8, 2009 15:57:26 GMT -5
There was no reason to. Here's why: 1. Hogan "got the torch" from Andre at WM 3. "Officially" that's what cemented him as the number 1 guy. He passed the torch back to the Ultimate Warrior at WM 6. Clean loss in a classic match, one of the biggest ever. Why should Hogan have to pass the torch AGAIN, just because the Warrior dropped the ball? He got the big put over by Andre in 1987 and then did the same for the Warrior in 1990. After WM 6 Hogan didn't owe anybody any torch passing. He paid his debt. fact is, is that the wwf was in a rough spot with the combination of warrior failing and the steroid scandal. they needed a new face and bret hart was getting crazy over, and was a good poster boy for the new era. warrior had no rep and was gone anyways, so they needed to put hart over in some way. a win over hogan would've done that...it shouldn't have been hogan's choice anyways. his midcard status in the 80s doesn't matter at all...many main eventers began at midcard status. nevermind that he wasn't really a 'midcarder', he was part of a tag team.. any once again - it shouldn't have been hogan's choice. he worked for the company, they were trying to edge away from the musclehead image, and they needed bret to look great. i'd say hogan was tarnishing his own image by suddenly appearing to be so much smaller than he once was. and don't talk about believability in wrestling, for chrissake. bret easily could've played the underdog against hogan and it would've been HUGE. althought i partially agree with you, flair was nothing to the wwf audience. they were two different audiences for the nwa and wwf at that time. nwa was the for real, true wrestling business and the wwf was disneyland for wrestling.
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Post by Next Man’s Knowing Rock on May 8, 2009 16:34:34 GMT -5
Traditionally, a departing top wrestler puts over someone of the company's choosing so that that guy will be seen as the new top star. Hogan was smart to not do it, but at the same time it was a pretty crapty and disrespectful move on his part.
Bret's a bit hypocritical to bring it up though. The only reason the screwjob happened is because his ego was too big to pass the torch to HBK.
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Post by man on May 8, 2009 16:53:29 GMT -5
Hogan passed the torch to the Warrior. He did not owe anyone else anything. It doesn't matter if Warrior failed to carry the banner. That's not Hogan's problem.
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Dwight
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Post by Dwight on May 8, 2009 17:01:19 GMT -5
And Bret would stop talking about the screwjob so much if every interview he has would stop bringing it up for him to answer. Amen to that. I love how everything Bret says has to be about him "Crying" when he clearly is simply answering a question that will simply never leave him. Why? Because everyone wants his opinion of it for their own usage...even though we all know his opinion on it. - By 1993 I'm pretty sure it was obvious who the next big face was going to be. And that was Bret. It wouldn't have killed Hogan's career to lose to Bret. But I can see why he wouldn't want to do it. - Bret doesn't over look his first title reign from Flair and no one forgets it. As stated, I'm pretty sure Bret was referring to other people not just himself. It just would have been nice for Hogan to lose to Bret before he left as far as I'm concerned. I can see that Hogan wouldn't want to tap out or anything. But I still think there should have been a way to make it work for everyone. I don't blame him for that not happening as I can't say I know for sure. It just should have happened.
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Post by Gene on May 8, 2009 19:08:09 GMT -5
Bret was a great wrestler but he could never be a Hogan, a Stone Cold, or a John Cena.
a great wrestler doesn't always mean a great superstar.
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Post by Jimmy on May 8, 2009 23:16:34 GMT -5
So you're saying Hogan had done one clean job in his entire WWF singles career and didn't owe it to Vince to do it for someone else?
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Post by moogie101 on May 9, 2009 3:29:51 GMT -5
The reason Hogan SHOULD haver passed the torch is simply that Vince wanted him to. He's kinda the boss after all!!
Vince clearly wanted to go with Bret as Champion moving in a different direction & with all the people over the years who laid down to make Hogan such a megastar he should have done the job to Bret to help get him established as a genuine main eventer.
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Post by carly1988 on May 9, 2009 5:59:51 GMT -5
The main point you're failing to miss is the fact that just because you lose in a high profile match, doesnt mean you're passing the Torch. I dont believe in "passing of the torch" as much as a transitional champion into a new era.....Sammartino and Backlund were the men of the 70s. Graham was the transitional champion to get it from 1 face (bruno) to another (backlund). Sheik was another transitional champion to get it from a face (backlund) to another face (Hogan).
Warrior was a very popular wrestler in 1990 but I dont think Vince ever saw him as the future of the company. It was a situation that we would see later on, that a guy was just so over you had to put the title on him. Of course to get the title off of Warrior back to Hogan you had to use a transitional champion to make Hogan look good....Enter Slaughter.....
So with Backlund and Sammartino dominating the 70s, Hogan in the 80s and they were ready to move onto a new era and generation by 1992, You're top stars were Hogan (who was planning on taking time off), Warrior (who is too unreliable), Flair (who was a short term plan) and Bret Hart. Flair actually did the right thing in 92 when he dropped the title to Hart. He put him over and gave him the main event credibility. That set up perfectly for a transitional champion to come in (Yokozuna) to take the title, drop it to the champion of the last era (Hogan) so he could "pass the torch" to Hart.
Guys like, Warrior, Slaughter, Andre, Savage, Flair were all either transitional champions or just really over and had big names, never were they suppose to be the face of an era
70s-Sammartino/Backlund "Golden Era"- Hogan "New Generation" Hart "Attitude Era"- Austin
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Post by nirvanacobain on May 9, 2009 8:48:17 GMT -5
So you're saying Hogan had done one clean job in his entire WWF singles career and didn't owe it to Vince to do it for someone else? this is what i got from that too, seriously how many guys put hogan over from 84-93? i dont care what hogan wanted or didnt want, vince was pushing bret as the wwf's top babyface and hogan should have jobbed. hogan was a big enough star where he could have ''passed the torch'' several times and it wouldnt have hurt it. he also could have prevented that god awful yokozuna title run
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Post by S on May 9, 2009 11:38:19 GMT -5
Couldn't you argue that Warrior inadvertently 'passed the torch back' to Hulk when he bombed?
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Post by Johnny Wrestling on May 9, 2009 11:54:57 GMT -5
Ugh. I won't really state my opinion since this is not really a thread related of someone passing the torch, but about you wanting to bash Bret Hart.
XZEROX already said it all for you.
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Post by user9327 on May 9, 2009 12:02:48 GMT -5
The only guy that ever put Bret over for a title on a big stage was Mr. Perfect. Everybody else wasn't as established. When Piper did it at WM8 we sorta knew it was coming.
I don't think the outcome of Bret's career would have been affected by being put over by Hogan though unless it was at a Wrestlemania.
Bret was a great wrestler, and one of my favorites, but he was not going to gain any mainstream attention from Hogan.
Flair should have done the job on TV.
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craignwo4life
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Post by craignwo4life on May 9, 2009 14:15:54 GMT -5
3. Bret got his "torch passing", even though everyone (including himself) seems to overlook it. He beat Ric Flair, clean, with his finishing hold for the championship. Seriously! Flair! In the 80's and early 90's, it was Hogan and Flair, those were the biggest names in wrestling. So why the hell is Bret crying that nobody passed him the torch when Flair did just that!!! I'm not sure you could class it as passing the torch when you consider that he beat Flair for the belt at a house show and I seem remember at the time they didn't even televise the whole match, just a very brief clip!!
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Post by Next Man’s Knowing Rock on May 9, 2009 14:25:20 GMT -5
Hogan passed the torch to the Warrior. He did not owe anyone else anything. It doesn't matter if Warrior failed to carry the banner. That's not Hogan's problem. Umm... Hogan was the champion in 1993, and Warrior wasn't even in the WWF then. So your non-point doesn't work.
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Raine
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Joined on: Aug 8, 2006 12:11:52 GMT -5
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Post by Raine on May 9, 2009 14:31:37 GMT -5
Bret's a bit hypocritical to bring it up though. The only reason the screwjob happened is because his ego was too big to pass the torch to HBK. I think Bret's motivation when refusing to put Michaels over at Survivor Series was that he already did it at WM12 and then Michaels refused to return the favour at WM13 feigning a knee injury. I bet that if Bret was facing say The Undertaker at Survivor Series 1997, Bret would have lost cleanly to him regardless of it being in Canada or not.
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Post by Johnny Wrestling on May 9, 2009 16:19:11 GMT -5
Bret's a bit hypocritical to bring it up though. The only reason the screwjob happened is because his ego was too big to pass the torch to HBK. I think Bret's motivation when refusing to put Michaels over at Survivor Series was that he already did it at WM12 and then Michaels refused to return the favour at WM13 feigning a knee injury. I bet that if Bret was facing say The Undertaker at Survivor Series 1997, Bret would have lost cleanly to him regardless of it being in Canada or not. It wasn't really the fact that he had already done it. I think he would have done it twice, but it was Michaels' attitude which led Bret Hart to say no. Bret too much creative control, so he could say no.
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