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Post by spawnsyxx9 on May 13, 2009 13:19:06 GMT -5
And I'm not fully disagreeing with you. My point, however, is that because Hogan passed the torch to the Warrior, face on face, he did NOT owe Bret anything. Nobody passed the torch to Hogan and he attempted to pass the torch to the Warrior. The fact that the Warrior didn't pan out in the long run is NOT Hogan's problem. He did not have the responsibility of putting over Bret. Would that have been a nice thing to do? Yes. But by no means was Hogan obligated to do so. That's my point. You don't think that Andre passed the torch to Hogan...really? |
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Johnny Lawrence - Cobra Kai
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Post by Johnny Lawrence - Cobra Kai on May 13, 2009 13:29:04 GMT -5
And I'm not fully disagreeing with you. My point, however, is that because Hogan passed the torch to the Warrior, face on face, he did NOT owe Bret anything. Nobody passed the torch to Hogan and he attempted to pass the torch to the Warrior. The fact that the Warrior didn't pan out in the long run is NOT Hogan's problem. He did not have the responsibility of putting over Bret. Would that have been a nice thing to do? Yes. But by no means was Hogan obligated to do so. That's my point. You don't think that Andre passed the torch to Hogan...really? Yeah... Andre didn't job very often, so any time he did so -- via pinfall, in front of that many fans -- has to be considered a nice rub for Hogan. You could make the argument that Hogan's popularity had already exploded before Andre jobbed to him, which is true. But Backlund was sort of "forced" to pass the torch to Hogan because McMahon was ready for a new guy on top, and the guy who actually dropped the world title to Hogan -- Iron Sheik -- never truly had "the torch." He was textbook example of a transitional champion. They wanted Hogan as champion, not Backlund, and putting Iron Sheik in the middle was done to make sure the title didn't have to change hands in a babyface vs. babyface match, which was avoided in those days. And if you go back to the AWA (where Hogan first got popular after Rocky III), while Verne Gagne foolishly didn't put the world title on Hogan, he definitely allowed him to get over. He gave him lots more interview time, put him in a feud with Bockwinkel (who put Hogan over about as well as you possibly can without actually losing the belt to him), and so on. My point is, it's not as if nobody helped Hogan get where he was... plenty of people gave him a boost. |
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Post by Patrick Bateman on May 13, 2009 14:11:08 GMT -5
Yeah, I was going to bring up Backlund too.
He put over Hogan in an interview huge, right after his return to the WWF: "He's changed his ways! He's not gonna be workin' with Blassie anymore!"
Instant solidified babyface with the approval of the company's then-top dog.
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Post by man on May 13, 2009 15:44:58 GMT -5
Yes, REALLY. Hogan was already a star after Rocky III. He was the world champ and the face of the company for 3 years before Andre jobbed to him. The point is that while WM3 was definitely a big feather in Hogan's cap, it was NOT a passing of the torch. Hogan already had the torch by 1987 and been running with it making the WWF an international entity. Andre didn't have a torch to pass, Hogan already had it.
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Post by spawnsyxx9 on May 13, 2009 15:52:29 GMT -5
Yes, REALLY. Hogan was already a star after Rocky III. He was the world champ and the face of the company for 3 years before Andre jobbed to him. The point is that while WM3 was definitely a big feather in Hogan's cap, it was NOT a passing of the torch. Hogan already had the torch by 1987 and been running with it making the WWF an international entity. Andre didn't have a torch to pass, Hogan already had it. Andre didn't have a torch to pass...right.... maybe you better re-read your wrestling history before you declare that Andre had no torch to pass. I understand that Hogan was a star before, but in terms of wrestling history, Andre jobbing to Hogan was one of the ultimate achievements and for you to be taking that away and saying that Hogan would have been as huge as he was post WM 3 if Andre hadn't done the job is ridiculous. If Hogan had say wrestled anyone else on the card from Harley Race to Randy Savage, he would not have come off looking as a bonafide wrestling star as he did after. |
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Post by man on May 13, 2009 16:27:24 GMT -5
First of all, you need to stop taking things out of context. It's getting annoying. You contstantly blur the line between putting someone over and passing the torch. They are separate things. Nobody bassed the torch to Hogan. Andre is no different. There is no doubt that Andre made Hogan immortal in the eyes of the fans at WM3. No question! But that wasn't the same as passing the torch. Andre's time was long gone as the lead of the company. At the time of WM 3 Hogan already had "the torch", so there was no passing of the torch.
I think that instead of telling me to look up wrestling history, you should figure out exactly what "passing of the torch" means. Just to help you, some good examples are:
WM 6: Hogan cleanly jobbing to the Warrior with original plan of the Warrior "leading the WWF into the 90's ".
WM 12: Bret jobbing to HBK.
WM 14: HBK jobbing to Austin to start the Attitude Era.
Nitro '98: Hogan jobbing to Goldberg, making him "the guy" in WCW. Didn't pan out long term, similar situation as The Warrior.
WM 18: Hogan jobbing to The Rock in the 80's vs the New Millenium past vs future (so much for The Rock being "the future" of the WWE).
While examples of just putting someone over include things like:
Hogan vs Andre
Flair vs Sting (or really anybody)
Hogan vs Kurt Angle
Hogan vs Brock Lesnar
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Post by Johnny Wrestling on May 13, 2009 16:58:52 GMT -5
Well, we can argue about the Bret thing in 1993 'till the end of time, we won't reach an agreement. You feel your way, feel mine. However, I did notice that you guys avoided my earlier question. Who passed the torch to Hogan? Seriously, what big time star put him over and passed the torch? Some fool said that the Iron Shiek was the one. LMAO! Shiek was a transitional champion! So do tell. What the difference between the Backlund > Shiek > Hogan configuration and the the Hogan > Yokozuna > Bret configuration? Seems EXACTLY the same to me! Nobody gave Hogan the torch. Did Sammartino? No. Did Backlund? No. Some can say Andre, but that would be false. By WM 3 Hogan was already the biggest star of the company and Andre never really had a torch to pass. What pisses me off is that all you crybabies complain that Hogan didn't pass the torch to Bret. And yet, are perfectly content with Backlund never passing the torch to Hogan. Somehow that doesn't matter. And this isn't even the first time this has happened. Here is some more of the narrow-minded garbage I've seen from you people: * Hogan vs Undertaker in 1991 compared to Austin vs Kane in 1998. NO DIFFERENCE!!!! And yet Austin could do no wrong! * Hogan no selling vs Undertaker no selling. BOTH have "indistructable" characters, and yet it's only OK for Taker to do that. * Hogan not putting over people vs Austin no putting over people. Hogan jobs rarely, but when he does it means a lot to the business (Warrior, Sting, Goldberg, Rock). What major job did Austin do to put someone over? And I'm talking about during his popularity run. Hell, didn't Austin come in and beat up the ECW and WCW roster by himself during the Invasion angle?! Gimme a freaking break! * Backlund > Sheik > Hogan arrangement vs Hogan > Yokozuna > Bret arrangement. NO DIFFERENCE. And yet it's a travastie that Hogan didn't pass the torch even though nobody passed it to him! The main reason all you nay-sayers hate Hogan so much is because, like it or not, none of your favorites will EVER reach his level! And that drives your nuts! Austin and Hogan are really different. We complain about Hogan not putting people over because it was himself who refused to loss. Austin, on the other side was just doing what writers told him to do. Andre did pass a torch. That is why that is still talked about to this day. |
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Johnny Lawrence - Cobra Kai
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Post by Johnny Lawrence - Cobra Kai on May 13, 2009 17:29:13 GMT -5
Well, we can argue about the Bret thing in 1993 'till the end of time, we won't reach an agreement. You feel your way, feel mine. However, I did notice that you guys avoided my earlier question. Who passed the torch to Hogan? Seriously, what big time star put him over and passed the torch? Some fool said that the Iron Shiek was the one. LMAO! Shiek was a transitional champion! So do tell. What the difference between the Backlund > Shiek > Hogan configuration and the the Hogan > Yokozuna > Bret configuration? Seems EXACTLY the same to me! Nobody gave Hogan the torch. Did Sammartino? No. Did Backlund? No. Some can say Andre, but that would be false. By WM 3 Hogan was already the biggest star of the company and Andre never really had a torch to pass. What pisses me off is that all you crybabies complain that Hogan didn't pass the torch to Bret. And yet, are perfectly content with Backlund never passing the torch to Hogan. Somehow that doesn't matter. And this isn't even the first time this has happened. Here is some more of the narrow-minded garbage I've seen from you people: * Hogan vs Undertaker in 1991 compared to Austin vs Kane in 1998. NO DIFFERENCE!!!! And yet Austin could do no wrong! * Hogan no selling vs Undertaker no selling. BOTH have "indistructable" characters, and yet it's only OK for Taker to do that. * Hogan not putting over people vs Austin no putting over people. Hogan jobs rarely, but when he does it means a lot to the business (Warrior, Sting, Goldberg, Rock). What major job did Austin do to put someone over? And I'm talking about during his popularity run. Hell, didn't Austin come in and beat up the ECW and WCW roster by himself during the Invasion angle?! Gimme a freaking break! * Backlund > Sheik > Hogan arrangement vs Hogan > Yokozuna > Bret arrangement. NO DIFFERENCE. And yet it's a travastie that Hogan didn't pass the torch even though nobody passed it to him! The main reason all you nay-sayers hate Hogan so much is because, like it or not, none of your favorites will EVER reach his level! And that drives your nuts! Austin and Hogan are really different. We complain about Hogan not putting people over because it was himself who refused to loss. Austin, on the other side was just doing what writers told him to do. Andre did pass a torch. That is why that is still talked about to this day. I agree that Andre passed a torch to Hogan. I think there is some validity to both side of the argument though... Hogan absolutely was the biggest star in the WWF a long time before Andre jobbed to him at Mania III. However, I still classify that as a passing of the torch, because Andre was more than a "superstar." He was an almost mythical creature that had a record of almost 20 years of dominance in virtually every corner of the globe, and also had such an aura of invincibility due to his size, particularly with younger fans (which, in 1987, included a huge number of Hulkamaniacs). So while it's true that Andre passing the torch to Hogan wasn't an exact comparison to something like Hogan vs. Warrior -- which was designed to make Warrior the top-level star instead of IC-level -- it was still a passing of the torch. Andre was already a notch above your average superstar main eventer, in terms of his reputation. Hogan was the WWF's top star and was certainly wildly popular before Mania III, but what Andre did was pass the torch of "immortality" (pardon the term... I know it sounds corny). Hogan was popular before beating Andre, but after beating Andre, he became almost a mythical figure ... just like Andre. Regarding Austin, the only big example of refusing to "pass the torch" I can think of is when he left a TV taping when he found out he was booked to job to Brock Lesnar that night. But Austin claims he disagreed with that script because it was an unannounced match with no build whatsoever, and not because he refused to pass the torch to Lesnar. So if he's being truthful about his reason, it's more of a creative disagreement than a refusal to pass the torch. Austin just thought they should have built it into a money program rather than shotgunning it on free weekly TV. |
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Post by man on May 13, 2009 17:31:56 GMT -5
LMAO! Dumbest thing I've ever heard! Hogan and Austin were the faces of the WWF in their respective eras! They weren't going to be losing to others. Writers... lol What a freaking joke! Vince wasn't going to have Hogan jobing to others in the 80's or Austin in the late 90's. Wake up and smell the BS you're shoveling!
How so? Hogan was already the number 1 guy in the company, WITH the heavyweight belt for 3 years. What torch did Andre have that you speak of? Do tell.
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Post by spawnsyxx9 on May 13, 2009 19:01:04 GMT -5
First of all, you need to stop taking things out of context. It's getting annoying. You contstantly blur the line between putting someone over and passing the torch. They are separate things. Nobody bassed the torch to Hogan. Andre is no different. There is no doubt that Andre made Hogan immortal in the eyes of the fans at WM3. No question! But that wasn't the same as passing the torch. Andre's time was long gone as the lead of the company. At the time of WM 3 Hogan already had "the torch", so there was no passing of the torch. How does one blur the lines between passing the torch and doing the job when you cannot pass the torch, or rarely can you, without doing a job? I'm not saying that doing a job is equivalent to passing the torch, but it's definitely incorrect that Andre just jobbed to Hogan. |
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Post by Johnny Wrestling on May 13, 2009 20:25:16 GMT -5
LMAO! Dumbest thing I've ever heard! Hogan and Austin were the faces of the WWF in their respective eras! They weren't going to be losing to others. Writers... lol What a freaking joke! Vince wasn't going to have Hogan jobing to others in the 80's or Austin in the late 90's. Wake up and smell the BS you're shoveling! How so? Hogan was already the number 1 guy in the company, WITH the heavyweight belt for 3 years. What torch did Andre have that you speak of? Do tell. Hogan was not the top guy in 2002, yet you claim he passed the torch to The Rock. |
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hbkrules
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Post by hbkrules on May 16, 2009 23:08:06 GMT -5
I agree with what most of u said that Hogan losing to warrior was him passing the torch. Ya it woulda been nice if he had lost clean to bret but he didn't owe anyone anything.
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