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Post by Tim Tebow™ on Jul 7, 2009 12:48:35 GMT -5
Yeah you have to go back a few pages before the thread trailed off to why Elway isn't the best, like TRW said.
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wakeman
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Post by wakeman on Jul 7, 2009 19:25:30 GMT -5
Why no serious argument for Montana? Drop dead accurate. Born on and off field leader. Ultimate clutch player. More mobile (in his early years) than people give him credit for. Never turned the ball over. What more could you ask for in a QB? I feel he has a much more serious case than Tom Brady. But as I've said throughout this topic, there is NOTHING to say one guy is for sure. You could make a strong case for at least 5 guys. |
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Post by katphishjake on Jul 8, 2009 2:30:54 GMT -5
i think this whole debate has become quite lame and personal between all of you, but nevertheless... Try taking a debate class and you'll quickly see that "opinions" only get you so far in a conversation. Especially when you're providing incorrect information to go along with those opinions, as you have done throughout this entire thread. opinions will get me anywhere in a conversation. now in a debate (or as this has turned into, a childish debate with name calling and derogatory bashing), facts may be needed. a debate class will tell you the difference between a conversation and a debate, too. |
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 8, 2009 10:17:16 GMT -5
Nothing's personal. I just don't understand how someone can come in and accuse me of "making up stats" when that's quite obviously not the case.
If I'm debating a subject like this, obviously there's a certain amount of opinion that comes into play... But at the same time, just because you have the opinion that a certain player is the best ever, doesn't mean that other people don't have the right to refute that argument... Especially when said person is throwing out wild claims that have no truth to them in the first place.
If someone came in the thread and said, "I think John Elway is the best QB of all-time," I don't think I or anyone else would've jumped on them... It's the way that it was done that's bothersome. He comes in and basically calls everyone an idiot for NOT picking John Elway.
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wakeman
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Post by wakeman on Jul 8, 2009 15:12:31 GMT -5
In my original post in this thread, I came in here and said my OPINION is John Elway was the best ever. Never do I call anyone an "idiot". I even give my own top 5 with a few honorable mentions. Then you come in with your post, which can be seen as much more of an attack than mine.
I've also never claimed that you are making up stats. Maybe someone else did that. The stats you've provided are good, and I actually appreciate that cause I'm a numbers guy and a big stats guy myself.
But my point is this. You can put every stat in the NFL books in this thread, it's still not going to conclusively prove who is the greatest QB of all time. It's arguably the biggest debate in professional sports. I've had the "argument" hundreds of times.
My opinion is John Elway was the greatest QB of all time. As lifelong, diehard Denver Broncos fan, I know I never wanted ANY other guy under center.
Your argument is for Tom Brady, which I can respect. The guy has been amazing. However, I think before anyone annoints him the best of all time, that can't be done while he's STILL PLAYING. To me, it's a slap in the face of guys like Elway, Marino, Montana, etc. to say "You guys did some great things, but this guy is already better".
When his career is over, might he be the best QB ever? Absolutely. No questions asked. But, I think that should be asked once he's called it quits.
Daunte Culpepper used to be one hell of a QB until he tore his knee up. It's very unlikely, but Brady could suffer the same fate. Please don't argue that, because it's not a real possibility, I'm just throwing out a hypothetical situation to try and show the point I am making.
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 8, 2009 15:28:45 GMT -5
Daunte Culpepper never did ANYTHING near what Tom Brady has already done.
Brady could retire today and he'd be a first-ballot hall of famer.
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wakeman
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Post by wakeman on Jul 8, 2009 19:20:34 GMT -5
I'll agree on both counts, no doubt. But when Culpepper went down, the only QBs with bigger numbers year in and year out were Manning and Brady. Now, he shouldn't even be in the league anymore he's so bad, but he is because he's in Detroit warming up the seat for Matthew Stafford.
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Hitman Bono
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Post by Hitman Bono on Jul 8, 2009 20:15:11 GMT -5
I wouldn't call them idiots, unless they couldn't realize that winning games is the most important stat for a QB... and John Elway won more than anyone but Brett
plus I said Francis was the best
Culpepper did net over 5,000 yards in a season... actually, I don't believe anyone but Dante has ever thrown for 4,000 and rush for 400 ( Brunell came like 5 yards short ) in a season - that's SOMETHING isn't it? I mean... did Tommie Brady ever net 5,000 in a season?
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wakeman
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Post by wakeman on Jul 8, 2009 21:25:07 GMT -5
Right, when any QB plays as long as Favre has, he should have all those wins. When Elway retired, he had more than anyone who ever played. You can't say he didn't have a VERY large role in that. I brought it up earlier, but it got shot down because he didn't perform in Super Bowls. The Broncos lost those Super Bowls because they were against much better teams, simple as that. John Elway wasn't the reason Montana and Rice carved them up or the reason Doug Williams threw 4 TD passes in one quarter.
When he had the weapons, the Broncos were the best team in the NFL, without doubt. Yes, there rushing attack had a lot to do with that, but they wouldn't have won back to back Super Bowls with Brian Griese. That was proven.
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Post by katphishjake on Jul 8, 2009 22:07:40 GMT -5
i agree with a person not having any basis for their opinion, but it is indeed just that... an opinion. agree to disagree. 3 pages of the same back and forth bickering gets old... don't any of us have anything better to do?
plus, like i said, you know it's getting to it's point when both of you start name calling and bashing, then it just turns into little kids on a playground.
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 9, 2009 0:52:22 GMT -5
Did Tommie Brady ever net 5,000 in a season? Tom Brady also never set the record for fumbles in a season. |
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Post by Hitman Bono on Jul 9, 2009 13:12:23 GMT -5
Did Tommie Brady ever net 5,000 in a season? Tom Brady also never set the record for fumbles in a season. Was that a yes a no on the 5,000 yard question? Also - Dante didn't set sh*t |
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 9, 2009 13:30:07 GMT -5
Was that a yes a no on the 5,000 yard question? Also - Dante didn't set sh*t If you're trying to say that, at ANY point in his career, Culpepper was better than Brady; then I can't continue to conversate with you, because that's just f*cking ridiculous. No, Brady hasn't had a 5,000 total yard season. He had a 4,900+ total yard season where he scored 52 f'n touchdowns, though, so I'll take that. And yes, Daunte Culpepper is currently tied for the most fumbles ever in a season, with 23. He literally averages more than one fumble per game over the course of his career. |
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Post by doogle on Jul 9, 2009 13:43:23 GMT -5
Right, when any QB plays as long as Favre has, he should have all those wins. When Elway retired, he had more than anyone who ever played. You can't say he didn't have a VERY large role in that. I brought it up earlier, but it got shot down because he didn't perform in Super Bowls. The Broncos lost those Super Bowls because they were against much better teams, simple as that. John Elway wasn't the reason Montana and Rice carved them up or the reason Doug Williams threw 4 TD passes in one quarter. When he had the weapons, the Broncos were the best team in the NFL, without doubt. Yes, there rushing attack had a lot to do with that, but they wouldn't have won back to back Super Bowls with Brian Griese. That was proven. Brett Favre passed yer boy John Elway: 4,123 of 7,250 (56.9 percent) for 51,475 yards, 300 touchdown passes and 226 interceptions. QB rating: 79.9. Brett Favre: 5,720 of 9,280 (61.6 percent) for 65,127 yards, 464 touchdown passes and 310 interceptions. QB rating: 85.4. I dunno...but it looks pretty clear who the better QB is...plus Favre started over 220 games in a row and only played 35 more games than Elway( 2+ seasons) if Elway could have thrown 14,000 yards and 164 tds in 2+ seasons then bah god he would be the greatest...but he isn't and neither is Favre(dunno how much more wins Favre had than Elway....I lost track at how much I hate John Elway)...now I'd give it straight up right now to Marino...look at the pansy defense era we are going through....everyone's throwing for over 3500 yards..it's bullshit. |
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Post by doogle on Jul 9, 2009 13:45:30 GMT -5
Right, when any QB plays as long as Favre has, he should have all those wins. When Elway retired, he had more than anyone who ever played. You can't say he didn't have a VERY large role in that. I brought it up earlier, but it got shot down because he didn't perform in Super Bowls. The Broncos lost those Super Bowls because they were against much better teams, simple as that. John Elway wasn't the reason Montana and Rice carved them up or the reason Doug Williams threw 4 TD passes in one quarter. When he had the weapons, the Broncos were the best team in the NFL, without doubt. Yes, there rushing attack had a lot to do with that, but they wouldn't have won back to back Super Bowls with Brian Griese. That was proven. Elway was the reason these guys kept going on the field and tiring the defense out by CONSISTENTLY going 3-and-out and Griese probably could have won if he wasn't playing with Terrell Davis's corpse. |
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Post by Kody on Jul 9, 2009 19:15:46 GMT -5
As much as I love Tom Brady (no homo) and believe he is the greatest QB of all time....I still am a huge fan of Daunte. He's probably my favorite QB of all time.
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Hitman Bono
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Post by Hitman Bono on Jul 9, 2009 19:24:55 GMT -5
Was that a yes a no on the 5,000 yard question? Also - Dante didn't set sh*t If you're trying to say that, at ANY point in his career, Culpepper was better than Brady; then I can't continue to conversate with you, because that's just f*cking ridiculous. No, Brady hasn't had a 5,000 total yard season. He had a 4,900+ total yard season where he scored 52 f'n touchdowns, though, so I'll take that. And yes, Daunte Culpepper is currently tied for the most fumbles ever in a season, with 23. He literally averages more than one fumble per game over the course of his career. There's no way Dante's better than Brady - You said Dante has never done ANYTHING - 5,000 total yards - More to the point 4,000 passing and 400 rushing - Is something - it's something Brady's never done before, and it's something very impressive Also, I'd like to make it clear that my vote goes to Sir Francis as the best QB of all time |
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wakeman
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Post by wakeman on Jul 9, 2009 19:27:52 GMT -5
Right, when any QB plays as long as Favre has, he should have all those wins. When Elway retired, he had more than anyone who ever played. You can't say he didn't have a VERY large role in that. I brought it up earlier, but it got shot down because he didn't perform in Super Bowls. The Broncos lost those Super Bowls because they were against much better teams, simple as that. John Elway wasn't the reason Montana and Rice carved them up or the reason Doug Williams threw 4 TD passes in one quarter. When he had the weapons, the Broncos were the best team in the NFL, without doubt. Yes, there rushing attack had a lot to do with that, but they wouldn't have won back to back Super Bowls with Brian Griese. That was proven. Brett Favre passed yer boy John Elway: 4,123 of 7,250 (56.9 percent) for 51,475 yards, 300 touchdown passes and 226 interceptions. QB rating: 79.9. Brett Favre: 5,720 of 9,280 (61.6 percent) for 65,127 yards, 464 touchdown passes and 310 interceptions. QB rating: 85.4. I dunno...but it looks pretty clear who the better QB is...plus Favre started over 220 games in a row and only played 35 more games than Elway( 2+ seasons) if Elway could have thrown 14,000 yards and 164 tds in 2+ seasons then bah god he would be the greatest...but he isn't and neither is Favre(dunno how much more wins Favre had than Elway....I lost track at how much I hate John Elway)...now I'd give it straight up right now to Marino...look at the pansy defense era we are going through....everyone's throwing for over 3500 yards..it's bullpoop. Yeah well any legacy Favre had has been tarnished by the fact that he won't just  ing go away. He was just awesome last year for the Jets, wasn't he? Again, pile on all the stats that you want to. It certainly doesn't change my opinion. Brett Favre being better than Elway is a joke to me. I'll listen to the Tom Brady argument long before that one. |
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Hitman Bono
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Post by Hitman Bono on Jul 9, 2009 20:08:46 GMT -5
As a lifelong Elway/Broncos fan, I've gotta say Brett was just great man, and him not going away doesn't tarnish his legacy at all! If anything it shows that Favre doesn't play for records or accolades, he plays because he's a COMPETITOR through and through
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wakeman
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Post by wakeman on Jul 9, 2009 22:16:48 GMT -5
I don't know, I just see him as someone who can't accept that his time has come and gone. I also really hate how his "big decisions" have to dominate every offseason. Yes, I know the media plays a role in that, but Favre knows what he's doing. He wants the spotlight to be on him. He's a great competitor and all, but I don't think he's as far up this list as everyone thinks he is, just because he holds a lot of records. I would still rank several guys ahead of him.
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