Hitman Bono
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Post by Hitman Bono on Jun 30, 2009 14:15:17 GMT -5
Sammy Winder was Denver's main running back through out the late 80's and was horrible; never had a season averaging over 4.0 yards a carry or a 1000 yard season. Gary did... and I'm saying that guys like Gary, Anderson, Dayne, and Tatum Bell have somewhat diminished what Terrell Davis did in his career by having great seasons... I love TD, but Bobby Turner (Denver's Running Backs Coach for the last 15 years) and the Zone Blocking had a lot more to do with Elway winning the Super Bowls than Davis.
So what I'm saying is that Elway + Gary would be better than Griese + Davis...
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Hitman Bono
Main Eventer
WF 10 Year Member
The Sunday Jeff of it all...
Joined on: Apr 2, 2002 23:16:46 GMT -5
Posts: 3,101
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Post by Hitman Bono on Jun 30, 2009 14:30:08 GMT -5
I had a whole thing typed up but the my connection effed up...
My point was that guys like Gary, Ron Dayne, Mike Anderson, and Tatum Bell proved that Bobby Turner and the Zone blocking had more to do with Elway winning the Super Bowls than TD, not that TD doesn't belong in the Hall...
Sammy Winder wasn't as good as any of the guys I mentioned, yet Elway still managed to get Denver to 5 AFC title game with nothing but his arm and legs... Marino didn't do that, Peyton had the same offense for almost 10 years (Chase Daniel syndrome), and it's hard to argue that had Damon Huard taken over for Bledsoe no one would care who Tom Brady is
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Post by Kliquid on Jun 30, 2009 15:52:02 GMT -5
My entire point is that he didn't do it "by himself."
In 1986, the Broncos had the 9th ranked defense. In 1987, the Broncos had the 9th ranked defense. In 1989, the Broncos had the 3rd ranked defense. In 1991, the Broncos had the 5th ranked defense.
Those are the years I'm finding that Elway made it to the conference championship game (before Terrell Davis). Correct me if I'm missing something. And he had good defenses behind him in '97 and '98, too; when "he" finally was able to win it.
I find it funny how you're giving all this credit to Elway "doing it with only his arms and his legs" when in reality, he wasn't doing anything that Dan Marino wasn't doing.
The difference is that Dan Marino spent a majority of his career playing on teams where the defense ranked in (or very near) the bottom-10 of the league. Marino also never had the benefit of a good running game beside him. During the entire span of Marino's career, the Dolphins had one running back crack 1,000 yards -- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, in 1996, when he ran for 1,116 yards.
Do you know how many times Elway had a RB crack 1,000 yards? 8 times.
Peyton Manning is a similar situation to Marino, in that he hasn't had good luck with the defenses playing behind him; either... Over his career, he's only had 3 seasons where his defense has played well. And in one of them, his team won the Superbowl. Not to mention, Manning's career isn't over. He's still playing at an elite level.
The fact that you just compared Damon Huard to Tom Brady tells me all I need to know. Damon Huard is garbage. If Matt Cassel could only throw for 21 touchdown passes a year after Brady threw 50, what makes you think that the guy who couldn't even make the roster as the THIRD STRING QUARTERBACK behind Matt Cassel could do better? What in the hell are you even talking about right now?
The bottom line is this -- John Elway had plenty of chances to "win it all" early and during the prime of his career. He blew them because he played absolutely terribly in those Superbowls. He didn't just have a one-play mistake, either. He was flat-out bad throughout the games. It was only once the team decided to run the ball that the Broncos were able to win the Big Game... And by that team, it was only John Elway's team because he was the QB -- he clearly wasn't the focal point of the offense anymore.
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Hitman Bono
Main Eventer
WF 10 Year Member
The Sunday Jeff of it all...
Joined on: Apr 2, 2002 23:16:46 GMT -5
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Post by Hitman Bono on Jun 30, 2009 19:42:50 GMT -5
Don't make up numbers!!!!
In 1986, Denver had the 15th ranked Defense, Winder had 789 yards with a 3.3 (!!!!!) average, and only ONE Broncos receiver caught more than 60 balls - Elway had 20 Touchdowns
1987, which was a strike shortened year, Denver ranked 7th in D, Winder went for 740, with a 3.8 average, and Vance Johnson lead the team with... an amazing 42 catches - Elway scored 23 Touchdowns
In 1984, Marino had 3 players with over 60 cathches, and Miami had the leagues best defense...
In 1985, Marino had 2 Players catch 70 balls, 1 catch 50, and 2 others with more than 30 a peice... That year they had the 4th ranked D in the league...
We've both been here long enough to know better than to make up numbers like that... that's very insulting coming from a Mod of all things...
And btw, Huard was you're boy's Dan Marino's hand picked successor, although the coaching staff went another way - My point with that was had Damon Huard stepped in instead of Brady in 2001 - not in 2009 (take the time to read what I said before jumping on it - the style of the Pats in 2001 wasn't what it was in '07) it's not easy to say Brady was a better QB than Huard in 2001, and had Huard not been injured himself the moment Bledsoe went down, who know's what would've happened
And as far as Elway being the focal point... I said it had more to do with Bobby Turner and the Zone Scheme than anything... so eh yeah man...
It's just a wrestling toy forum man... you don't have to throw out numbers off the top of you're head to sound smart... I mean you can, but...
Either way, Fran Tarkenton gets my vote as the best QB ever
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 1, 2009 12:09:22 GMT -5
Don't make up numbers!!!! In 1986, Denver had the 15th ranked Defense, I went by yards all the way through. They were 9th in yards against. I'm not "making up" any numbers. Yards-against is the stat that defenses are generally ranked by, because it shows what they allowed the opposing offense to do. Winder had 789 yards with a 3.3 (!!!!!) average, and only ONE Broncos receiver caught more than 60 balls - Elway had 20 Touchdowns How is that relevant at all? You're acting like 20 touchdowns is something special? Maybe if he had 20 touchdowns and like 5-6 interceptions it'd be good; but 20 touchdowns and 13 interceptions is pretty average. That same year, Marino threw for 44 touchdowns, 23 INT's, and 4,746 yards. Let's see here... I wonder who had the better year? Oh wait, it must've been Elway, because he "carried" the Broncos, right? Despite the fact that he didn't perform as well as Marino? Unfortunately for Marino, he didn't have a good running game, either... Oh, and their defense ranked 26th in the NFL. 1987, which was a strike shortened year, Denver ranked 7th in D, Winder went for 740, with a 3.8 average, and Vance Johnson lead the team with... an amazing 42 catches - Elway scored 23 Touchdowns a) Marino scored 27 touchdowns that year. b) Again, is 23 touchdowns something spectacular? c) The Dolphins' leading rusher had 619 yards. d) The Dolphins had the 26th ranked defense, while the Broncos had he 9th ranked defense. Your point is what, exactly? In 1984, Marino had 3 players with over 60 cathches, and Miami had the leagues best defense... Talk about making up numbers? Since when is being ranked 19th in yards against and 7th in points against having "the league's best defense?" Keep smokin' that crack, buddy. The Dolphins had the league's best offense that year, and it was because Marino was out there absolutely murdering defenses to the tune of 48 f'n touchdowns. In 1985, Marino had 2 Players catch 70 balls, 1 catch 50, and 2 others with more than 30 a peice... That year they had the 4th ranked D in the league... ... Are you just pulling things out of thin air? The Dolphins ranked 23rd in yards against, 12th in points against on defense.If you're going to try to call me out, maybe you should at least make an effort to be correct every once in awhile. We've both been here long enough to know better than to make up numbers like that... that's very insulting coming from a Mod of all things... Yeah, you're right. I'm just making things up. I guess the official NFL stats are incorrect. Perhaps they should put together a committee of You, Richard Simmons, and Mr. Snuffalufagous to come up with the true stats. And btw, Huard was you're boy's Dan Marino's hand picked successor, although the coaching staff went another way "My boy?" Just because he's better than Elway doesn't mean he's 'my boy'. I liked Marino, but he was never my favorite QB. And what does being "hand-picked" to be a successor to someone have to do with anything? Brian Griese was supposed to be the successor to John Elway -- does that mean he's good? Noooooo.... My point with that was had Damon Huard stepped in instead of Brady in 2001 - not in 2009 (take the time to read what I said before jumping on it - the style of the Pats in 2001 wasn't what it was in '07) it's not easy to say Brady was a better QB than Huard in 2001, and had Huard not been injured himself the moment Bledsoe went down, who know's what would've happened Yes, exactly, who knows? My guess is that he would've been terrible, considering he's been terrible everywhere else he played. And as far as Elway being the focal point... I said it had more to do with Bobby Turner and the Zone Scheme than anything... so eh yeah man... Yeah, once they actually decided to turn the focus off of Elway, they won two Superbowls. Go figure. It's just a wrestling toy forum man... you don't have to throw out numbers off the top of you're head to sound smart... I mean you can, but... ... Says the pot, who called the kettle black.
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Hitman Bono
Main Eventer
WF 10 Year Member
The Sunday Jeff of it all...
Joined on: Apr 2, 2002 23:16:46 GMT -5
Posts: 3,101
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Post by Hitman Bono on Jul 1, 2009 16:47:01 GMT -5
Jesus...
I went by the Defensive Power Rankings (not a fantasy thing, sorry) which take into account that most games end in the 2nd 3rd quarter and come from behind stats aren't as important... durh
And my point with Elway was that regardless of his stats, he still managed to WIN more games than any other Quarterback in history; which being such a water cooler fantasy league all-star fan you should know is the most important stat when it comes to Quarterbacks... I know fantasy leagues don't take into account wins, but you should.... they're a very telling stat
It's always so f*cking easy to point out true team fans and people who only care about stats ( "Fantasy Boys" is what I've heard them called)...
I'm still disappointed that a mod would and would act like that...
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Post by Cult Member BriGuy on Jul 1, 2009 17:24:14 GMT -5
I don't get why you keep bringing up the fact that Kliquid is a mod. What does that have to do with anything?
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 1, 2009 17:57:21 GMT -5
Jesus... I went by the Defensive Power Rankings (not a fantasy thing, sorry) which take into account that most games end in the 2nd 3rd quarter and come from behind stats aren't as important... durh LoL, how convenient -- find some B.S. thing that is completely irrelevant, then present it as fact. Awesome. Why don't you provide a link to that information, because I'm interested to see how a team that was in the bottom-10 in the league in yards-against could possibly be ranked number one in "defensive power rankings." And my point with Elway was that regardless of his stats, he still managed to WIN more games than any other Quarterback in history; which being such a water cooler fantasy league all-star fan you should know is the most important stat when it comes to Quarterbacks... I know fantasy leagues don't take into account wins, but you should.... they're a very telling stat So, since Brett Favre has won more games than John Elway, I guess he's the best QB ever? How preposterous. I guess Chad Pennington, Joe Flacco, Matt Cassel Brett Favre, Kyle Orton, Jeff Garcia, Jake Delhomme, and Gus Frerotte were better quarterbacks than Philip Rivers last year; right? Since all that matters is wins? I can tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, that any of those teams would have given their left nuts to have Philip Rivers on their roster last year. See, the difference between you and I is that I come from the real world. The world where being a good player does not necessarily mean that you're on a good team. It's always so f*cking easy to point out true team fans and people who only care about stats ( "Fantasy Boys" is what I've heard them called)... Know what's really easy to point out? People who don't have a clue what they're talking about. And go figure, I'm responding to one. I'm still disappointed that a mod would and would act like that... That a mod would act like what? You're disappointed that I actually bring up factual information, whereas you just blindly throw sh*t at the wall and hope it sticks?
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 1, 2009 17:59:26 GMT -5
I don't get why you keep bringing up the fact that Kliquid is a mod. What does that have to do with anything? He's just trying to change the subject, because he's completely clueless about the original conversation.
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Post by Kody on Jul 1, 2009 22:06:37 GMT -5
Kliquid wins.
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Hitman Bono
Main Eventer
WF 10 Year Member
The Sunday Jeff of it all...
Joined on: Apr 2, 2002 23:16:46 GMT -5
Posts: 3,101
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Post by Hitman Bono on Jul 2, 2009 1:54:21 GMT -5
If anyone had L.T. and Antonio Gates they'd be a good, qb...
Phillip River has never proven anything other than the fact he can't win AFC championship games... and he can talk sh*t when he's up by 2 or 3 scores
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Post by katphishjake on Jul 2, 2009 2:32:12 GMT -5
the only thing I have to ask Kliquid is... WHEN THE DID KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR SUPPOSEDLY PLAY FOR THE DOLPHINS? Karim perhaps? :-p
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Post by T R W on Jul 2, 2009 9:59:14 GMT -5
If anyone had L.T. and Antonio Gates they'd be a good, qb... Phillip River has never proven anything other than the fact he can't win AFC championship games... and he can talk sh*t when he's up by 2 or 3 scores Wouldn't the same thing apply to Terrell Davis and Shannon Sharpe?
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 2, 2009 10:23:09 GMT -5
If anyone had L.T. and Antonio Gates they'd be a good, qb... Phillip River has never proven anything other than the fact he can't win AFC championship games... and he can talk sh*t when he's up by 2 or 3 scores So, you didn't answer the question that I asked.... You just made another preposterous statement, is all. Rivers threw for nearly 3,000 yards and 25 touchdowns to receivers not named Antonio Gates or LaDainian Tomlinson. Not to mention, Tomlinson was unhealthy throughout most of the year. If anyone had L.T. and Antonio Gates they'd be a good, qb... Phillip River has never proven anything other than the fact he can't win AFC championship games... and he can talk sh*t when he's up by 2 or 3 scores Wouldn't the same thing apply to Terrell Davis and Shannon Sharpe? No, you see, Terrell Davis and Shannon Sharpe were only good because of John Elway. Right? the only thing I have to ask Kliquid is... WHEN THE DID KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR SUPPOSEDLY PLAY FOR THE DOLPHINS? Karim perhaps? :-p ... You win this time, Mr. Katphish...
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Post by doogle on Jul 2, 2009 12:53:55 GMT -5
Also let's remember the Browns single-handedly put Elway into the Superbowl twice...even though they had the superior team and QB(Kosar was snnnnaaassstty)...numbers mean jack shlt cus Robert Smith was a ing amazing RB...look at his career numbers...Barry Sanders...but to be honest I gotta go with a top 5 with Jimmy Brown, Sweetness, Sanders, E. Smith and Faulk(pretty much the greatest all-around back i've ever seen but Smith is right there with him, if you gave either of them the ball on 3 consecutive downs, you'd have a first down gaurenteed)
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Post by doogle on Jul 2, 2009 12:56:02 GMT -5
Oh and the reason Elway has so many come back wins is because he played like crapfor 3 quarters and the defense kept them in it the entire game....can say the same about Favre...but Favre is the GOAT
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Post by doogle on Jul 2, 2009 13:00:24 GMT -5
Jesus... I went by the Defensive Power Rankings (not a fantasy thing, sorry) which take into account that most games end in the 2nd 3rd quarter and come from behind stats aren't as important... durh And my point with Elway was that regardless of his stats, he still managed to WIN more games than any other Quarterback in history; which being such a water cooler fantasy league all-star fan you should know is the most important stat when it comes to Quarterbacks... I know fantasy leagues don't take into account wins, but you should.... they're a very telling stat It's always so f*cking easy to point out true team fans and people who only care about stats ( "Fantasy Boys" is what I've heard them called)... I'm still disappointed that a mod would and would act like that... Last time I checked the stat book...Favre was sitting pretty with 169 wins in his career.
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 2, 2009 13:03:09 GMT -5
Last time I checked the stat book...Favre was sitting pretty with 169 wins in his career. Stop bringing up facts. According to the "Power Ranking Wins" or some other B.S. thing he conjured up in his head, I'm sure John Elway is at the top.
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Post by doogle on Jul 2, 2009 13:26:53 GMT -5
John Elway goes about 7 foot 9 800 pounds...doesn't throw interceptions...only completions to the other team....Elway threw 59 tds in 86 but had the league take them down to 23 because he "wanted to know what it felt like to be normal"...They had a 3 day tape delay on the first 4 superbowls...Elway won each of them but told the editors to edit it so he looked like they lost...reason was because John Elway eats glass...that's the reason....he can open a juicy juice can with his front teeth.
only one of those things is true.
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Post by katphishjake on Jul 2, 2009 14:12:14 GMT -5
the only thing I have to ask Kliquid is... WHEN THE DID KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR SUPPOSEDLY PLAY FOR THE DOLPHINS? Karim perhaps? :-p ... You win this time, Mr. Katphish... oh i just like giving you a hard time ... carry on gentleman.
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