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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 19, 2010 17:07:21 GMT -5
You have completely ignored anything and everything I've said. Over and over and over and over and over and over I've said that Jesus is both God and Man. He has a dual nature. Over and over and over and again I've said this. There are tons of scriptures that state that Jesus is God.
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word and the word.....was God. John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh..............
He actually claimed to be God in John 8:58. He forgave sins. How can he forgive trespasses against God if he's not God? Philippians 2 speaks of every knee powering and professing that Jesus Christ is Lord. Why would this be if he's not God? Yet in Isa 45, Jehovah makes the very same statement (that every knee shall bow and profess him as Lord) only he's speaking of himself. WTF? Even in the JW Bible (NWT) you find Thomas falling on his knees before Jesus and proclaiming "My Lord and my God!" No one corrects him. In Matt 28 he claims to have all power in Heaven and Earth. Who but a God could possess such power?
But at the same time you are correct that Jesus is fully human as well. He did die. He was resurrected (which he claims he did himself btw). He did eat. He did sleep. He did grow fatigued. But how can you reconcile the man sleeping in the bottom of the boat with the man who steps on the deck, says "Peace, be still." and the storm stops? Jesus has a dual nature. Show me in the scriptures where it says that Jesus can only have one nature.
And you still haven't responded to anything I posted from Zechariah. Your response was that they were prophecies of the Messiah, yet Jehovah claims them about himself.
You say Jesus was merely an archangel. Where in the Bible is this taught? Can you point to a particular scripture(s) that teaches that Jesus is an angel? I doubt you can. You'll simply cut and paste more dogma from someplace.
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Post by bane on May 20, 2010 0:22:59 GMT -5
You have completely ignored anything and everything I've said. Over and over and over and over and over and over I've said that Jesus is both God and Man. He has a dual nature. Over and over and over and again I've said this. There are tons of scriptures that state that Jesus is God. Nope. There isn't one that Jesus says himself that he is God. Where is it?John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word and the word.....was God. John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh.............. He actually claimed to be God in John 8:58. John 8:58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” Nope. Doesn't say that.
He forgave sins. How can he forgive trespasses against God if he's not God? Already covered this. Even PEOPLE can forgive sins. Matthew 6:14 “For if YOU forgive men their trespasses, YOUR heavenly Father will also forgive YOU; 15 whereas if YOU do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will YOUR Father forgive YOUR trespasses. I guess you are saying that people are God too... Philippians 2 speaks of every knee powering and professing that Jesus Christ is Lord. Why would this be if he's not God? Have you never heard of a LORD of England? There can be people who are called Lords too. However they are not Gods are they?At Isaiah 10:21 Jehovah is referred to as “mighty God,” just as Jesus is in Isaiah 9:6; but only Jehovah is ever called “God Almighty.”—Gen. 17:1. If a certain title or descriptive phrase is found in more than one location in the Scriptures, it should never hastily be concluded that it must always refer to the same person. Such reasoning would lead to the conclusion that Nebuchadnezzar was Jesus Christ, because both were called “king of kings” (Dan. 2:37; Rev. 17:14); and that Jesus’ disciples were actually Jesus Christ, because both were called “the light of the world.”
Yet in Isa 45, Jehovah makes the very same statement (that every knee shall bow and profess him as Lord) only he's speaking of himself. I agree with that. Every knee will bow before God. WTF? Even in the JW Bible (NWT) you find Thomas falling on his knees before Jesus and proclaiming "My Lord and my God!" ‘Why, then,’ one may ask, ‘did Thomas exclaim when seeing the resurrected Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”?’ As already noted, Jesus is a god in the sense of being divine, but he is not the Father. Jesus had just told Mary Magdalene: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” Remember, too, why John wrote his Gospel. Three verses after the account about Thomas, John explained that he wrote so that people “may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God”—not that he is God.—John 20:17, 28, 31.
No one corrects him. In Matt 28 he claims to have all power in Heaven and Earth. Who but a God could possess such power? I agree. All authority was GIVEN to him by GOD. But at the same time you are correct that Jesus is fully human as well. He did die. He was resurrected (which he claims he did himself btw). He did eat. He did sleep. He did grow fatigued. But how can you reconcile the man sleeping in the bottom of the boat with the man who steps on the deck, says "Peace, be still." and the storm stops? Jesus has a dual nature. Show me in the scriptures where it says that Jesus can only have one nature. Show me one where it says he can have twoAnd you still haven't responded to anything I posted from Zechariah. Your response was that they were prophecies of the Messiah, yet Jehovah claims them about himself. We both know that's not true.You say Jesus was merely an archangel. Where in the Bible is this taught? Can you point to a particular scripture(s) that teaches that Jesus is an angel? Already did. Read back through. The ANGEL that guided the Israelites to safety is mentioned as the Archangel which Jesus is. I doubt you can. You'll simply cut and paste more dogma from someplace. It explains all your points though don't they?By the way Dr. Hulk. What religion are you?
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 20, 2010 8:31:39 GMT -5
Nope. There isn't one that Jesus says himself that he is God. Where is it? I really wish you'd learn how to respond with quotes. It's difficult to read your responses when you respond inside a quote. Actually it does. You're going to the New World Translation which is a very biased translation. Just the fact that it inserts the word Jehovah into the NT proves that as the word Jehovah is never, ever found in the Greek. If you look at translations that aim for a literal translation of the Greek you find it translated something like " Before Abraham was, I AM." You'll see this in the Revised Version, the NIV, the KJV, the NKJV, the ASV, ESV, YLT and pretty much any other translation you care to name that looks for a literal translation of the Bible. Ok, I obviously didn't make myself clear. That's my fault. He forgave sins against God. The verses you quoted refer to people forgiving sins that others have committed against them. If I steal your car, you have the power to forgive me because I have sinned against you. However if I blaspheme against God, you have no power to forgive me because I haven't sinned against you. Yet we see Jesus in Mark 2 forgiving the sins of a paralytic. There is no record of the paralytic doing anything against Jesus. It's logical to conclude he was forgiving his (the paralytic's) sins against God. Even the scribes that were there recognized this You broke up my point and I'm not sure why. Isa says every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jehovah is Lord. Yet Phillippians refers to the exact same verse and ascribes it to Jesus. So will every knee one day bow and confess that Jesus is Lord or will every knee one day bow and confess that Jehovah is Lord? Or will people profess both? Again with the cut/paste job. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to respond to any cut/paste jobs. As I said, it makes it look like you really have no idea how to defend your faith and you just cut/paste stuff. I can't resist pointing out that John 10:30 directly contradicts your point. Jesus claimed there "I and my Father are one." So if Jesus had all power and wasn't God, then God had no power? That one can have two natures is logical. We are all flesh of course, but do we not also possess a spiritual nature - i.e. a soul? Even in the physical world, something as basic as light has two natures. It behaves as particles, then behaves as waves. How is this possible? Simple. It has two natures and scientist accept that light is both waves and particles You may think it's not true, but that's not the case. Let's look at both prophecies. Zech 11:4 shows that the speaker in the passage is Jehovah - "This is what Jehovah has said.........." 11:6 confirms this. Then we get down to the twelfth verse where it says: Then I said to them: “If it is good in YOUR eyes, give [me] my wages; but if not, refrain.” And they proceeded to pay my wages, thirty pieces of silver. Here it is still Jehovah speaking. Now, who was sold for 30 pieces of silver? I missed that. Please repost. I don't see where Jesus was ever referred to as an angel. In fact, I read where he had more power than an angel. He accepted worship which angels never do and he spoke with authority which angels never do. Michael the archangel did not rebuke Satan in Jude 1:9, yet Jesus doesn't hesitate at all to rebuke devils. The church I go to is not affiliated with any denomination. I will ask you who the Savior is. Is Jehovah the Savior or is Jesus the Savior? Isaiah 43:11 - I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior. Luke 2:11 - because there was born to YOU today a Savior, who is Christ [the] Lord, in David’s city Is Jehovah the only Savior or is Jesus the Savior? Very, very confusing. Unless they're one and the same.
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Deleted
Joined on: Jul 3, 2024 20:03:32 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2010 14:41:48 GMT -5
Here's something to consider: Liberals complain about their hatred of religious dogma, but when they gain the following of the masses, they become just as dogmatic and closed-minded as the religious people they complain about. The '60's counter culture would disagree with you. I don't think I have ever heard of a athiest starting a war based on their beliefs. I don't think it is ridiculous that some people believe that we are here for anything other then to just be here, and multiply, and to do the very best one can do. And to say that it is more ridiculous then any of the wildest relgion is ridiculous in itself. Look at some relgions where they would sacrifice themselves or other human beings in the name of God. Or that people choose not to accept a blood transfusion and would rather die. Those type of things are just stupid! I believe in God, but I do share a open mind on those who do not and there reasonings on why. In reply to the first sentence: Besides, all religious wars are political struggles in the end. Nazism, for example, was race-based and most of the leaders in that system didn't care about religion very much. America, which has taken part in many wars, represents freedom of religion and therefore its wars do not represent any one support of religion or any one hatred of religion, at all. TONS of wars have nothing to do with religion, and ones that do have to do with religion, are usually merely political struggles in disguise. I'd say believing we're here for no reason is still crazier than those beliefs, but it's not like the sacrificial religions you're speaking of had any idea of a reason why we're here or why "God" or the the "gods," created us, they just believed that since we were here, we should take part in sacrifices.
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Post by bane on May 20, 2010 14:48:10 GMT -5
You have completely ignored anything and everything I've said. Over and over and over and over and over and over I've said that Jesus is both God and Man. He has a dual nature. Over and over and over and again I've said this. There are tons of scriptures that state that Jesus is God. John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word and the word.....was God. 1808: “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text. 1864: “and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson. 1928: “and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel. 1935: “and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed. 1946: “and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme. 1950: “and the Word was a god.” New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures. 1958: “and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek. 1975: “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz. 1978: “and godlike kind was the Logos.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider. Those are other verses which say differently from the KLV.John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh.............. The word can become flesh. Doesn't prove he is God now does it? (John 1:14) So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth. I notice you are leaving the rest of it out. ONLY BEGOTTEN! Shall I look up that term in the dictionary?
He actually claimed to be God in John 8:58. NO HE DID NOT. He said I AM. HE didn't freaking say I AM GOD. Quit twisting scripture. I suppose by your logic Moses is God too! Exodus 3:13 Nevertheless, Moses said to the [true] God: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of YOUR forefathers has sent me to YOU,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them? See? Moses said I AM....Kinda destroys your argument doesn't it? He forgave sins. How can he forgive trespasses against God if he's not God? Already covered. Philippians 2 speaks of every knee powering and professing that Jesus Christ is Lord. Why would this be if he's not God? Yet in Isa 45, Jehovah makes the very same statement (that every knee shall bow and profess him as Lord) only he's speaking of himself. WTF? Even in the JW Bible (NWT) you find Thomas falling on his knees before Jesus and proclaiming "My Lord and my God!" No one corrects him. In Matt 28 he claims to have all power in Heaven and Earth. Who but a God could possess such power? But at the same time you are correct that Jesus is fully human as well. He did die. He was resurrected (which he claims he did himself btw). He did eat. He did sleep. He did grow fatigued. HOW can GOD be fatigued? But how can you reconcile the man sleeping in the bottom of the boat with the man who steps on the deck, says "Peace, be still." and the storm stops? Because I have said, he IS a god!!!! NOT THE GOD! Jesus has a dual nature. Show me in the scriptures where it says that Jesus can only have one nature. Then by your logic he can have 5 or 99 natures.... And you still haven't responded to anything I posted from Zechariah. Your response was that they were prophecies of the Messiah, yet Jehovah claims them about himself. You say Jesus was merely an archangel. Where in the Bible is this taught? Can you point to a particular scripture(s) that teaches that Jesus is an angel? I doubt you can. You'll simply cut and paste more dogma from someplace. If you don't read what I write, why do I bother? Look for it.
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StingerSplash
Main Eventer
Give em' the Scorpion Death Drop.
Joined on: Jun 6, 2009 11:30:40 GMT -5
Posts: 3,976
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Post by StingerSplash on May 20, 2010 14:53:37 GMT -5
I haven't been on here for a few days, but I can't believe this thread is still going.
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Post by The Champ is Here! on May 20, 2010 14:57:09 GMT -5
He actually claimed to be God in John 8:58. NO HE DID NOT. He said I AM. HE didn't freaking say I AM GOD. Quit twisting scripture. I suppose by your logic Moses is God too! Exodus 3:13 Nevertheless, Moses said to the [true] God: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of YOUR forefathers has sent me to YOU,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them? See? Moses said I AM....Kinda destroys your argument doesn't it
just so you know, The I AM that Jesus uses is the same word the God uses to moses, that name is YHWH....its not that Jesus said I am, its that Jesus said I AM....Jesus was claiming himself as God...look it up in the original language...the I AM used in these two spots is the name for God, not the i am like, i am hungry
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 20, 2010 17:22:15 GMT -5
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word and the word.....was God. 1808: “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text. 1864: “and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson. 1928: “and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel. 1935: “and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed. 1946: “and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme. 1950: “and the Word was a god.” New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures. 1958: “and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek. 1975: “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz. 1978: “and godlike kind was the Logos.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider. Those are other verses which say differently from the KLV.Translating John 1:1 as "The word was A God" is not an accurate translation. You won't find it any other translation that doesn't have a doctrinal slant to it. I could get into how it's a wrong translation, but that would involve a discourse on Greek. Basically, the same word for God here is used in the same way elsewhere in the scriptures and is never translated as "a god." It's always translated as God. Don't take my word for though. Google "John1:1 translation" and you can find a number of insightful articles on this verse and how it's translated. See what I said above about John1:1. The Word (logos) was God and that same God became flesh in John 1:14. I'm not sure how you're reading this. It appears to me that you're really not familiar with this passage and what is going on here and it's significance in John 1:14. This is Moses in the desert obviously. God is speaking to him out of the burning bush and commands him to go to Pharoah and tell Pharoah to let his people go. We're all familiar with that story I'm sure. Moses asks God what his name is. God replies to say that his name is "I AM THAT I AM." To this day this is one of the most highly revered names of God around the Jews. Moses never claimed to be the I AM, he claimed he was sent in his name. When Jesus said he was the I AM the Jews recognized immediately who he was claiming to be. He was claiming to be the self-existent One - Jehovah. Was this an accurate claim or not? That's up to you, but that's exactly what he was claiming. I'm gonna let this drop this since you have no interest in addressing how Jesus (who according to you was not God ) could forgive sins against God. I can't forgive sins against God and neither can you or anyone else, yet Jesus could. You are basing this entire belief off John 1:1 which is not an accurate translation at all. On top of that, Jesus claimed to be Jehovah. He claimed to be one with the Father. Now, you can say he's wrong when he claims that. That's fine and good, but the point is he did claim to be God. He very well could. I'm not sure what your point is. The Bible does say that if any man is in Christ he's a new creature. It talks about Christians taking on a new nature. Any true believer has the nature of Christ, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a fleshly nature though. I read everything you post. I don't read what you cut/paste from random websites when you don't know the answers. I'm also not sure why you're responding again to this post and not one I made since then. Who is the Savior? Jesus or Jehovah? Jehovah says there is no Savior besides himself (Isa 43:11) yet Jesus is referred to as the Savior in Luke. And the epistles refer to Jesus as both Lord and Savior several times.
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Post by bane on May 20, 2010 18:24:08 GMT -5
He actually claimed to be God in John 8:58. NO HE DID NOT. He said I AM. HE didn't freaking say I AM GOD. Quit twisting scripture. I suppose by your logic Moses is God too! Exodus 3:13 Nevertheless, Moses said to the [true] God: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of YOUR forefathers has sent me to YOU,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them? See? Moses said I AM....Kinda destroys your argument doesn't it
just so you know, The I AM that Jesus uses is the same word the God uses to moses, that name is YHWH....its not that Jesus said I am, its that Jesus said I AM....Jesus was claiming himself as God...look it up in the original language...the I AM used in these two spots is the name for God, not the i am like, i am hungry AGAIN....AT JOHN 8:58 a number of translations, for instance The Jerusalem Bible, have Jesus saying: “Before Abraham ever was, I Am.” Was Jesus there teaching, as Trinitarians assert, that he was known by the title “I Am”? And, as they claim, does this mean that he was Jehovah of the Hebrew Scriptures, since the King James Version at Exodus 3:14 states: “God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM”? At Exodus 3:14 (KJ) the phrase “I AM” is used as a title for God to indicate that he really existed and would do what he promised. The Pentateuch and Haftorahs, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz, says of the phrase: “To the Israelites in bondage, the meaning would be, ‘Although He has not yet displayed His power towards you, He will do so; He is eternal and will certainly redeem you.’ Most moderns follow Rashi in rendering [Exodus 3:14] ‘I will be what I will be.’” The expression at John 8:58 is quite different from the one used at Exodus 3:14. Jesus did not use it as a name or a title but as a means of explaining his prehuman existence. Hence, note how some other Bible versions render John 8:58: 1869: “From before Abraham was, I have been.” The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes. 1935: “I existed before Abraham was born!” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed. 1965: “Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am.” Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink. 1981: “I was alive before Abraham was born!” The Simple English Bible. 1984: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. Thus, the real thought of the Greek used here is that God’s created “firstborn,” Jesus, had existed long before Abraham was born.—Colossians 1:15; Proverbs 8:22, 23, 30; Revelation 3:14. Again, the context shows this to be the correct understanding. This time the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming to “have seen Abraham” although, as they said, he was not yet 50 years old. (Verse 57) Jesus’ natural response was to tell the truth about his age. So he naturally told them that he “was alive before Abraham was born!”—The Simple English Bible.
How many times do I have to post it? I AM is NOT A NAME!!! Look at other Bible translations.
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Post by bane on May 20, 2010 18:34:50 GMT -5
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word and the word.....was God. 1808: “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text. 1864: “and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson. 1928: “and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel. 1935: “and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed. 1946: “and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme. 1950: “and the Word was a god.” New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures. 1958: “and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek. 1975: “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz. 1978: “and godlike kind was the Logos.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider. Those are other verses which say differently from the KLV.Translating John 1:1 as "The word was A God" is not an accurate translation. You won't find it any other translation that doesn't have a doctrinal slant to it. I could get into how it's a wrong translation, but that would involve a discourse on Greek. Basically, the same word for God here is used in the same way elsewhere in the scriptures and is never translated as "a god." It's always translated as God. Don't take my word for though. Google "John1:1 translation" and you can find a number of insightful articles on this verse and how it's translated. So you are telling me that all those translations are wrong? Yeah...Ok..See what I said above about John1:1. The Word (logos) was God and that same God became flesh in John 1:14. (John 1:18) No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him. IF no one has seen GOD....How can people have seen Jesus if you SAY he is God....He is obviously not. He is the ONLY BEGOTTEN god. Do you see the difference? Even see the capital and lower cases? One is GOD the other is god. TWO seperate beings here.I'm not sure how you're reading this. It appears to me that you're really not familiar with this passage and what is going on here and it's significance in John 1:14. This is Moses in the desert obviously. God is speaking to him out of the burning bush and commands him to go to Pharoah and tell Pharoah to let his people go. We're all familiar with that story I'm sure. Moses asks God what his name is. God replies to say that his name is "I AM THAT I AM." To this day this is one of the most highly revered names of God around the Jews. Moses never claimed to be the I AM, he claimed he was sent in his name. When Jesus said he was the I AM the Jews recognized immediately who he was claiming to be. He was claiming to be the self-existent One - Jehovah. Was this an accurate claim or not? That's up to you, but that's exactly what he was claiming. Already covered.I'm gonna let this drop this since you have no interest in addressing how Jesus (who according to you was not God ) could forgive sins against God. Already covered for the third time I can't forgive sins against God and neither can you or anyone else, yet Jesus could. A god can forgive sins too.You are basing this entire belief off John 1:1 which is not an accurate translation at all. On top of that, Jesus claimed to be Jehovah. He claimed to be one with the Father. Now, you can say he's wrong when he claims that. That's fine and good, but the point is he did claim to be God. Was the Word “God” or “a god”? THAT question has to be considered when Bible translators handle the first verse of the Gospel of John. In the New World Translation, the verse is rendered: “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” (John 1:1) Some other translations render the last part of the verse to convey the thought that the Word was “divine,” or something similar. (A New Translation of the Bible, by James Moffatt; The New English Bible) Many translations, however, render the last part of John 1:1: “And the Word was God.”—The Holy Bible—New International Version; The Jerusalem Bible. Greek grammar and the context strongly indicate that the New World Translation rendering is correct and that “the Word” should not be identified as the “God” referred to earlier in the verse. Nevertheless, the fact that the Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”) leaves the matter open to question in some minds. It is for this reason that a Bible translation in a language that was spoken in the earliest centuries of our Common Era is very interesting. The language is the Sahidic dialect of Coptic. The Coptic language was spoken in Egypt in the centuries immediately following Jesus’ earthly ministry, and the Sahidic dialect was an early literary form of the language. Regarding the earliest Coptic translations of the Bible, The Anchor Bible Dictionary says: “Since the [Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures] were being translated into Coptic during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant witnesses.” The Sahidic Coptic text is especially interesting for two reasons. First, as indicated above, it reflects an understanding of Scripture dating from before the fourth century, which was when the Trinity became official doctrine. Second, Coptic grammar is relatively close to English grammar in one important aspect. The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of those days, do not have an indefinite article. Coptic, however, does. Moreover, scholar Thomas O. Lambdin, in his work Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, says: “The use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds closely to the use of the articles in English.” Hence, the Coptic translation supplies interesting evidence as to how John 1:1 would have been understood back then. What do we find? The Sahidic Coptic translation uses an indefinite article with the word “god” in the final part of John 1:1. Thus, when rendered into modern English, the translation reads: “And the Word was a god.” Evidently, those ancient translators realized that John’s words recorded at John 1:1 did not mean that Jesus was to be identified as Almighty God. The Word was a god, not Almighty God. Don't read it if you don't want to. You cant read it because it defeats your point. That's why.
He very well could. I'm not sure what your point is. The Bible does say that if any man is in Christ he's a new creature. It talks about Christians taking on a new nature. Any true believer has the nature of Christ, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a fleshly nature though. I read everything you post. I don't read what you cut/paste from random websites when you don't know the answers. Then you really cannot say you weren't told now can you?I'm also not sure why you're responding again to this post and not one I made since then. Who is the Savior? Jesus or Jehovah? Jehovah says there is no Savior besides himself (Isa 43:11) yet Jesus is referred to as the Savior in Luke. And the epistles refer to Jesus as both Lord and Savior several times. They both are.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 20, 2010 18:38:16 GMT -5
Quick question. What word does the word YHVH come from?
Also, in the future, I'm not responding to stuff you cut and paste. Would a teacher accept an answer that was plagiarized from a text book somewhere? And you still haven't told me who the savior is. If Jehovah is Savior as he says in Isaiah, then there are no other saviors beside him. That's what he says. He says that he alone is the Savior. How then can Jesus be the savior?
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Post by bane on May 20, 2010 18:44:17 GMT -5
Quick question. What word does the word YHVH come from? Also, in the future, I'm not responding to stuff you cut and paste. Would a teacher accept an answer that was plagiarized from a text book somewhere? And you still haven't told me who the savior is. Yeah I did. Read it. It is not my fault you won't read it. You are denying truth. Even if I typed it out long hand you still wouldn't read it. You would have some other excuse. I am not plagerizing nothing. It all comes from the Bible and bible based publications for our benefit.
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Post by The Champ is Here! on May 20, 2010 18:58:46 GMT -5
How many times do I have to post it? I AM is NOT A NAME!!! Look at other Bible translations. OK, you missed the point...In Exodus, when God says to Moses to tell them I AM has sent him....it mean YHWH......When Jesus said before Abraham was, I AM...He used the same word. Are you saying YHWH is not a name? I did look at other translations btw....I also went back to the root words in Greek.....
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Post by bane on May 20, 2010 19:36:48 GMT -5
How many times do I have to post it? I AM is NOT A NAME!!! Look at other Bible translations. OK, you missed the point...In Exodus, when God says to Moses to tell them I AM has sent him....it mean YHWH......When Jesus said before Abraham was, I AM...He used the same word. Are you saying YHWH is not a name? I did look at other translations btw....I also went back to the root words in Greek..... YHWH is a name. Where does in say in the Bible that YHWH is another name for I AM? Exodus 3:13 Nevertheless, Moses said to the [true] God: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of YOUR forefathers has sent me to YOU,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 At this God said to Moses: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” And he added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to YOU.’” 15 Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation. 16 You go, and you must gather the older men of Israel, and you must say to them, ‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers has appeared to me, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying: “I will without fail give attention to YOU and to what is being done to YOU in Egypt.
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Post by bane on May 20, 2010 19:39:55 GMT -5
Jesus—“Jehovah of the Old Testament”? Obviously, Jesus was not an ordinary human. He was unique because, as the Bible tells us, he enjoyed life in heaven before coming to the earth. (John 6:38, 62) He thus had knowledge and abilities beyond those of ordinary humans. This helps to explain his miracles and his outstanding wisdom. But does Jesus’ prehuman existence mean that he was God? A teacher’s manual makes that claim, saying: “Whenever Jesus referred to Himself as ‘I Am’ . . . , He identified Himself as the Jehovah of the Old Testament.” Is this true? According to the King James Version rendering of Exodus 3:13, 14, Moses asked: “When I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” About this text, The Pentateuch and Haftorahs (Hebrew text with English translation and exposition, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz) says that in the phrase “I am that I am . . . the emphasis is on the active manifestation of the Divine existence.” Its use as a title or name for God was therefore appropriate because by delivering them from Egyptian bondage, God was about to manifest his existence in behalf of his people in an outstanding way. Hertz says that “most moderns follow Rashi in rendering ‘I will be what I will be.’” This agrees with the rendering of the New World Translation, which reads: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” At John 8:58, once again the King James Version has Jesus using the expression “I am” in connection with himself, saying, “Before Abraham was, I am.” But here the expression is quite different from the one used at Exodus 3:14. Jesus did not use it as a name or title but simply as a means of explaining his prehuman existence. Thus, according to the New World Translation, the more correct rendering of John 8:58 is: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” Clearly, no Scriptural basis exists for the claim that Jesus is the same as Jehovah of the Hebrew Scriptures. Even the teacher’s manual previously quoted admits: “That Christ existed before His birth in Bethlehem does not in itself prove He was God (He could have existed as an angel).” In fact, this is what the Bible teaches. In his prehuman existence, Jesus was “a god,” or divine one, but not the God, the almighty God Jehovah.—John 1:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 20, 2010 19:42:06 GMT -5
Quick question. What word does the word YHVH come from? Also, in the future, I'm not responding to stuff you cut and paste. Would a teacher accept an answer that was plagiarized from a text book somewhere? And you still haven't told me who the savior is. Yeah I did. Read it. It is not my fault you won't read it. You are denying truth. Even if I typed it out long hand you still wouldn't read it. You would have some other excuse. I am not plagerizing nothing. It all comes from the Bible and bible based publications for our benefit. The word YHVH comes from the word I AM. The name Yahweh or literally means the I AM. When Jesus said "before Abraham was, I AM" he was claiming to be Yahweh. You keep saying that Jesus is a god but the Bible says the opposite. Jehovah says in Isa 45:5 that he is God and there is none beside him. Big g or little g, there are no gods beside him. Isa 43:10 Jehovah says there were no gods formed before him and there will be no gods formed after him. Clearly Jesus is not a minor god. He's either the Almighty god (as he's referred to in Revelation) and he's Jehovah in flesh or he's something other than merely a god. You mentioned that he's an archangel. Yet he claims to be God. And he clearly has more power than an archangel like Michael because he thinks nothing of rebuking devils and speaks with authority. Again in Isa, Jehovah says that he is God and beside him there is no other Savior. Hosea 13:4 confirms that there is no other Savior besides Jehovah. Yet Luke refers to Jesus as the savior.
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Post by bane on May 20, 2010 20:10:49 GMT -5
2 corinthians 4:4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.
Looks like there is a god right there. Does the bible lie?
1 Corinthians 8:4 Now concerning the eating of foods offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
Says that there are many gods.
SAVIOR One who preserves or delivers from danger or destruction. Jehovah is identified as the principal Savior, the only Source of deliverance. (Isa 43:11; 45:21) He was the Savior and Deliverer of Israel, time and again. (Ps 106:8, 10, 21; Isa 43:3; 45:15; Jer 14:8) He saved not only the nation but also individuals who served him. (2Sa 22:1-3) Often his salvation was through men raised up by him as saviors. (Ne 9:27) During the period of the Judges, these special saviors were divinely selected and empowered to deliver Israel from foreign oppression. (Jg 2:16; 3:9, 15) While the judge lived, he served to keep Israel in the right way, and this brought them relief from their enemies. (Jg 2:18) When Jesus was on earth, Jehovah was his Savior, supporting and strengthening him to maintain integrity through his strenuous trials.—Heb 5:7; Ps 28:8. Along with his role as Savior, Jehovah is also the “Repurchaser.” (Isa 49:26; 60:16) In the past he redeemed his people Israel from captivity. In delivering Christians from sin’s bondage, he does the repurchasing through his Son Jesus Christ (1Jo 4:14), Jehovah’s provision for salvation, who is therefore exalted as “Chief Agent and Savior.” (Ac 5:31) Accordingly, Jesus Christ can rightly be called “our Savior,” even though he performs the salvation as the agent of Jehovah. (Tit 1:4; 2Pe 1:11) The name Jesus, given to God’s Son by angelic direction, means “Jehovah Is Salvation,” for, said the angel, “he will save his people from their sins.” (Mt 1:21; Lu 1:31) This name points out that Jehovah is the Source of salvation, accomplished through Jesus. For this reason we find the Father and the Son spoken of together in connection with salvation.—Tit 2:11-13; 3:4-6. Salvation is provided by Jehovah through Jesus Christ for “all sorts of men.” (1Ti 4:10) He saves them from sin and death (Ro 8:2), from Babylon the Great (Re 18:2, 4), from this world under Satan’s control (Joh 17:16; Col 1:13), and from destruction and everlasting death (Re 7:14-17; 21:3, 4). “A great crowd” is shown at Revelation 7:9, 10 attributing salvation to God and to the Lamb. The ransom sacrifice is the basis for salvation, and as King and everlasting High Priest, Christ Jesus has the authority and power “to save completely those who are approaching God through him.” (Heb 7:23-25; Re 19:16) He is “a savior of this body,” the congregation of his anointed followers, and also of all who exercise faith in him.—Eph 5:23; 1Jo 4:14; Joh 3:16, 17.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on May 20, 2010 20:54:04 GMT -5
Will you stop with the cutting/pasting and actually respond to something? I run into this with you JW's all the time. Your answer is for me to read some interpretation from the Watchtower.
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Post by The Champ is Here! on May 20, 2010 21:03:29 GMT -5
OK, you missed the point...In Exodus, when God says to Moses to tell them I AM has sent him....it mean YHWH......When Jesus said before Abraham was, I AM...He used the same word. Are you saying YHWH is not a name? I did look at other translations btw....I also went back to the root words in Greek..... YHWH is a name. Where does in say in the Bible that YHWH is another name for I AM? When you read the original text, thats where
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Post by bane on May 20, 2010 21:07:31 GMT -5
Will you stop with the cutting/pasting and actually respond to something? I run into this with you JW's all the time. Your answer is for me to read some interpretation from the Watchtower. Like I said. You guys are a dime a dozen. You are not the first opposer that I have met. I will not stop with the cutting and pasting. If you would read it, then it would help you. Stop thinking you are original. Apostates are all over the place. But nice subtlety at first Dr. Hulk. Pretending to be interested. That is a common tactic of apostates. You really had me there. But the results are surely the same aren't they?
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