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Post by Ian from 616Entertainment. on Sept 13, 2010 0:59:19 GMT -5
Just skimming, but the order is strange.
How does a 3.25 star match rank higher than a 3.5 star match?
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Post by moocow on Sept 13, 2010 1:54:31 GMT -5
Just skimming, but the order is strange. How does a 3.25 star match rank higher than a 3.5 star match? That's Wrestling Observers score not theirs. |
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Post by Sound888 on Sept 13, 2010 2:28:28 GMT -5
Ah, Kick Your Face, you are awesome.
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Post by DgenerationX092 on Sept 13, 2010 3:01:13 GMT -5
Do the names Bryan Danielson and Chris Hero ring a bell? Hero has been without a doubt one of the best wrestlers on the mat this year. Yes, because in places where spotmonkeys run rampant, those with true wrestling ability can shine, because theyre different. People like Danielson and Hero are a whole nother subject I didnt even touch on. I feel that on these indie scenes, to make it, and I mean truley become an IWC sensation the likes of guys in ROH, Japan, etc. is your either a spot monkey, or a master ring technition the likes of Benoit and Angle. It seems like theres no middle man to me. That's how it comes across to me; Im just not aware of any wrestlers who are entertaining in the aspect of being able work a crowd with their charisma and character rather then the the actual moves they do. I dont hear of those guys who get the same pop by doing one move, with character and charisma, then a guy who has to get the same pop by having to add 5 more moves to that process. But honestly i know theyre out there, I'm just not aware of them. Which to me makes me wonder why people like Danielson overshadow them. My WWE-induced mind makes me have to believe that people like Danielson may have tainted the indie water, to where charisma has no effect on the crowd to the likes of Danielson's ability. Its not what they want to see; whereas to me, its what I need to see. Which also, leads me to say that just because I want to see charisma and character, doesnt mean I want to see a midget dressed as a leprechaun. To me, storytelling is the biggest. When I say Storytelling, im not saying the actual match itself, im saying everything that leads up to the match. If you have good storylines to tell me, you practically bought me. But If you have two guys fighting in an exhibition, youre not storytelling, youre just wrestling. I get bored with matches if I dont know why theyre fighting, or even what the purpose of the match serves. How can you decieve me into believing your fake fights, if you dont capture me with the story to tell me "Yeah, these guys want to kill each other". Or even when say Brock Lesner destroyed someone wether it was a local rookie, or Hulk Hogan himself, even though they didnt have a history, the match was to show the rise of Brock Lesnar. And I know most federations do care about storylines, like ROH, but ive also heard places like Japan where the stories and feuds have little to do with the actual matches you see. Maybe I just dont watch ROH because I dont want to have to dig up on everything in the past I missed, just to know why its entertaining to me now, who knows, I havent really attempted. -------- And yes, I realized I'm coming off as an ignorant Indie-basher, but thats how it's percieved to me and anyone else I know who's outside of the 3-inch thick window looking in. It makes complete sense to me that everyone who DOES know about indies, would bash me in return. But then you have to wonder, why is my percieving of the indies the way it is? Why is my opinion of indies being glorified spot-fest, possibly the general opinion to anyone with no prior indie knowledge? I had to have gotten that opinion from somewhere in order to feel like I do about it. |
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Post by Sound888 on Sept 13, 2010 3:29:34 GMT -5
Do the names Bryan Danielson and Chris Hero ring a bell? Hero has been without a doubt one of the best wrestlers on the mat this year. Yes, because in places where spotmonkeys run rampant, those with true wrestling ability can shine, because theyre different. People like Danielson and Hero are a whole nother subject I didnt even touch on. I feel that on these indie scenes, to make it, and I mean truley become an IWC sensation the likes of guys in ROH, Japan, etc. is your either a spot monkey, or a master ring technition the likes of Benoit and Angle. It seems like theres no middle man to me. That's how it comes across to me; Im just not aware of any wrestlers who are entertaining in the aspect of being able work a crowd with their charisma and character rather then the the actual moves they do. I dont hear of those guys who get the same pop by doing one move, with character and charisma, then a guy who has to get the same pop by having to add 5 more moves to that process. But honestly i know theyre out there, I'm just not aware of them. Which to me makes me wonder why people like Danielson overshadow them. My WWE-induced mind makes me have to believe that people like Danielson may have tainted the indie water, to where charisma has no effect on the crowd to the likes of Danielson's ability. Its not what they want to see; whereas to me, its what I need to see. Which also, leads me to say that just because I want to see charisma and character, doesnt mean I want to see a midget dressed as a leprechaun. To me, storytelling is the biggest. When I say Storytelling, im not saying the actual match itself, im saying everything that leads up to the match. If you have good storylines to tell me, you practically bought me. But If you have two guys fighting in an exhibition, youre not storytelling, youre just wrestling. I get bored with matches if I dont know why theyre fighting, or even what the purpose of the match serves. How can you decieve me into believing your fake fights, if you dont capture me with the story to tell me "Yeah, these guys want to kill each other". Or even when say Brock Lesner destroyed someone wether it was a local rookie, or Hulk Hogan himself, even though they didnt have a history, the match was to show the rise of Brock Lesnar. And I know most federations do care about storylines, like ROH, but ive also heard places like Japan where the stories and feuds have little to do with the actual matches you see. Maybe I just dont watch ROH because I dont want to have to dig up on everything in the past I missed, just to know why its entertaining to me now, who knows, I havent really attempted. -------- And yes, I realized I'm coming off as an ignorant Indie-basher, but thats how it's percieved to me and anyone else I know who's outside of the 3-inch thick window looking in. It makes complete sense to me that everyone who DOES know about indies, would bash me in return. But then you have to wonder, why is my percieving of the indies the way it is? Why is my opinion of indies being glorified spot-fest, possibly the general opinion to anyone with no prior indie knowledge? I had to have gotten that opinion from somewhere in order to feel like I do about it. The problem you have right now isn't because you bash independent wrestling for what is is, but that you bash it for what you think it is. You generalize independent wrestling as either spot fests or technical wrestling, but fail to give examples of what you are arguing against. You are afraid to speak on Danielson and Hero because you have no prior knowledge of them. You know that they are big names in small promotions, but you don't know why. So far, WWE has showed you nothing that Danielson can really do, but he does tell a story on Raw at the moment. That is not the reason why everyone who is familiar with him likes him. There is a reason why Danielson is on TEN of the best hundred matches of the decade. Instead of telling a story every week, great wrestlers like Bryan Danielson can tell a story within one match. Wrestlers like Bryan Danielson fight for pride, honor, and respect, because he wrestled in an independent promotion where there is no weekly show to tell a story about anything else. Since ROH has a weekly show now, maybe you can see what you are actually arguing against. |
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Kick Your Face
Main Eventer
Real Join Date: Sep 2003
Joined on: Nov 25, 2007 17:32:21 GMT -5
Posts: 3,141
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Post by Kick Your Face on Sept 13, 2010 3:35:14 GMT -5
Do the names Bryan Danielson and Chris Hero ring a bell? Hero has been without a doubt one of the best wrestlers on the mat this year. It seems like theres no middle man to me. That's how it comes across to me; Im just not aware of any wrestlers who are entertaining in the aspect of being able work a crowd with their charisma and character rather then the the actual moves they do. I take it you've never seen any of Jumbo Tsuruta's work. He could work a crowd better than anyone I've ever seen in the history of pro-wrestling. Watch this and tell me that a Japanese guy doesn't know how to work the crowd. |
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Post by DgenerationX092 on Sept 13, 2010 4:37:55 GMT -5
I responded in the bold inside the quote. The problem you have right now isn't because you bash independent wrestling for what is is, but that you bash it for what you think it is. You generalize independent wrestling as either spot fests or technical wrestling, but fail to give examples of what you are arguing against. This is true. Though I myself am a wrestling in an indy fed (whole nother situation..), the only examples I can bring to the table are people who would try to get me to watch little youtube best of's and stuff, and these best of's are either a guy's spot fest hightlight reel, or highlighting intricate wrestling maneuvers and innovations.You are afraid to speak on Danielson and Hero because you have no prior knowledge of them. You know that they are big names in small promotions, but you don't know why. So far, WWE has showed you nothing that Danielson can really do, but he does tell a story on Raw at the moment. That is not the reason why everyone who is familiar with him likes him. I know Danielson is big in small promotion's because of his ability. Apparently (I say that because I havent actually seen much of his work. I know of Daniel Bryan, and the Bryan Danielson I saw at a local show after his firing.) he's a world-renowned techincal wrestler, and his major fault to some, is his character, personality and charisma. Though on the Indie's, he doesnt need that because he's THAT well known, and his marks (not used in a derrogetory way) will mark for him and anything he does reguardless of that, because theyre a fan of the show he puts on.
I spoke to Danielson himself at sed indy show I attended, and when asked, he recommended the best place right now for me to train, is in Canada with Lance Storm. The only major fault, is Lance Storm doesnt teach you how to work a crowd.
Chris Hero, I admittedly know nothing about. I seen a video of him fighting a fan, pictures, and seen him live one time.There is a reason why Danielson is on TEN of the best hundred matches of the decade. Instead of telling a story every week, great wrestlers like Bryan Danielson can tell a story within one match. Wrestlers like Bryan Danielson fight for pride, honor, and respect, because he wrestled in an independent promotion where there is no weekly show to tell a story about anything else. Since ROH has a weekly show now, maybe you can see what you are actually arguing against. Well correct me if im wrong, but did Danielson NOT become a big deal until he arrived in ROH? If so, there should be room to tell stories because if your a fan of the promotion, there's always tape trading and videos to buy right? But I just assumed his fame grew from word of mouth about his ability to other indy fans who do respect ability, and he and ROH grew from there. And yes, I would like to tune into ROH should I have the channel, which I dont sadly. I'm very open to giving them a chance, should it be on my own time, like recording an episode. I take it you've never seen any of Jumbo Tsuruta's work. He could work a crowd better than anyone I've ever seen in the history of pro-wrestling. Watch this and tell me that a Japanese guy doesn't know how to work the crowd. Im sorry but there has to be some kind of misunderstanding. Jumbo Tsuruta is the one tagged in at 6:20 right? If so, he did not work the crowd. If you think he does, then we have to different definitions of what that means. What I know of, and was taught, is that "working the crowd" is starting chants, clapping, playing to them and acknowledging them, or if your a heel, scouring them, yelling at them, acknowledging them whilst giving heat to the babyface. Whatever it takes to make them apart of the action. Acting. John Cena's entrance is an example of working the crowd. That whole time he enter's his attention is devoted to them. What I got from your video, is that the crowd pops for that guy just for getting the upper hand. He didnt acknowledge the crowd whatsoever (perhaps he has that legacy where the crowd gets behind him reguardless, similar to The Undertaker, and he's doing things that im not picking up on?). I'm not trying to be hostile or condescending, but please, explain to me what I should have seen in that video because I obviously missed it. |
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Post by ttr23 on Sept 13, 2010 10:23:36 GMT -5
Yes, because in places where spotmonkeys run rampant, those with true wrestling ability can shine, because theyre different. People like Danielson and Hero are a whole nother subject I didnt even touch on. I feel that on these indie scenes, to make it, and I mean truley become an IWC sensation the likes of guys in ROH, Japan, etc. is your either a spot monkey, or a master ring technition the likes of Benoit and Angle. It seems like theres no middle man to me. That's how it comes across to me; Im just not aware of any wrestlers who are entertaining in the aspect of being able work a crowd with their charisma and character rather then the the actual moves they do. I dont hear of those guys who get the same pop by doing one move, with character and charisma, then a guy who has to get the same pop by having to add 5 more moves to that process. But honestly i know theyre out there, I'm just not aware of them. Which to me makes me wonder why people like Danielson overshadow them. My WWE-induced mind makes me have to believe that people like Danielson may have tainted the indie water, to where charisma has no effect on the crowd to the likes of Danielson's ability. Its not what they want to see; whereas to me, its what I need to see. Which also, leads me to say that just because I want to see charisma and character, doesnt mean I want to see a midget dressed as a leprechaun. To me, storytelling is the biggest. When I say Storytelling, im not saying the actual match itself, im saying everything that leads up to the match. If you have good storylines to tell me, you practically bought me. But If you have two guys fighting in an exhibition, youre not storytelling, youre just wrestling. I get bored with matches if I dont know why theyre fighting, or even what the purpose of the match serves. How can you decieve me into believing your fake fights, if you dont capture me with the story to tell me "Yeah, these guys want to kill each other". Or even when say Brock Lesner destroyed someone wether it was a local rookie, or Hulk Hogan himself, even though they didnt have a history, the match was to show the rise of Brock Lesnar. And I know most federations do care about storylines, like ROH, but ive also heard places like Japan where the stories and feuds have little to do with the actual matches you see. Maybe I just dont watch ROH because I dont want to have to dig up on everything in the past I missed, just to know why its entertaining to me now, who knows, I havent really attempted. -------- And yes, I realized I'm coming off as an ignorant Indie-basher, but thats how it's percieved to me and anyone else I know who's outside of the 3-inch thick window looking in. It makes complete sense to me that everyone who DOES know about indies, would bash me in return. But then you have to wonder, why is my percieving of the indies the way it is? Why is my opinion of indies being glorified spot-fest, possibly the general opinion to anyone with no prior indie knowledge? I had to have gotten that opinion from somewhere in order to feel like I do about it. The problem you have right now isn't because you bash independent wrestling for what is is, but that you bash it for what you think it is. You generalize independent wrestling as either spot fests or technical wrestling, but fail to give examples of what you are arguing against. You are afraid to speak on Danielson and Hero because you have no prior knowledge of them. You know that they are big names in small promotions, but you don't know why. So far, WWE has showed you nothing that Danielson can really do, but he does tell a story on Raw at the moment. That is not the reason why everyone who is familiar with him likes him. There is a reason why Danielson is on TEN of the best hundred matches of the decade. Instead of telling a story every week, great wrestlers like Bryan Danielson can tell a story within one match. Wrestlers like Bryan Danielson fight for pride, honor, and respect, because he wrestled in an independent promotion where there is no weekly show to tell a story about anything else. Since ROH has a weekly show now, maybe you can see what you are actually arguing against. don't even bother with him he is a fan of a company were we has seen a guy have sex with a dead body, live sex celebration, a sixty year old man force people to kiss his ass on live tv, two 40 year old men acting like juvenile delinquents telling every one to suck it, celebrity gust host,little peoples court, may young give birth to a hand, val venis get his penis choped off. Hawk "falling from the Titan Tron"? DX making Bret Hart look racist? Val Venis checking out Big Show's, "big show" in a bathroom? Kane hooking up jumper cables to Shane's testicles? The Oddities? Al Wilson and Billy & Chuck's Wedding. |
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Post by wabarrett on Sept 13, 2010 11:29:47 GMT -5
don't even bother with him he is a fan of a company were we has seen a guy have sex with a dead body, live sex celebration, a sixty year old man force people to kiss his ass on live tv, two 40 year old men acting like juvenile delinquents telling every one to suck it, celebrity gust host,little peoples court, may young give birth to a hand, val venis get his penis choped off. Hawk "falling from the Titan Tron"? DX making Bret Hart look racist? Val Venis checking out Big Show's, "big show" in a bathroom? Kane hooking up jumper cables to Shane's testicles? The Oddities? Al Wilson and Billy & Chuck's Wedding. Christ, you are a moron. Fair enough, some lame s*** has happened in WWE, but... 1. You can't spell. 2. Surely you, and most other people on this WWE forum are fans of the company. 3. You seriously cannot spell. |
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Post by spreedom8 on Sept 13, 2010 11:56:48 GMT -5
The last two pages of arguing are just a shame...
I agree that HBK/Jericho would be my pick for Match of the Decade... glad to see it at least made the list. I'd also have liked to see Hogan/Rock on the list because it's on my all-time top 5 for sure.
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Kick Your Face
Main Eventer
Real Join Date: Sep 2003
Joined on: Nov 25, 2007 17:32:21 GMT -5
Posts: 3,141
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Post by Kick Your Face on Sept 13, 2010 12:25:50 GMT -5
I responded in the bold inside the quote. The problem you have right now isn't because you bash independent wrestling for what is is, but that you bash it for what you think it is. You generalize independent wrestling as either spot fests or technical wrestling, but fail to give examples of what you are arguing against. This is true. Though I myself am a wrestling in an indy fed (whole nother situation..), the only examples I can bring to the table are people who would try to get me to watch little youtube best of's and stuff, and these best of's are either a guy's spot fest hightlight reel, or highlighting intricate wrestling maneuvers and innovations.You are afraid to speak on Danielson and Hero because you have no prior knowledge of them. You know that they are big names in small promotions, but you don't know why. So far, WWE has showed you nothing that Danielson can really do, but he does tell a story on Raw at the moment. That is not the reason why everyone who is familiar with him likes him. I know Danielson is big in small promotion's because of his ability. Apparently (I say that because I havent actually seen much of his work. I know of Daniel Bryan, and the Bryan Danielson I saw at a local show after his firing.) he's a world-renowned techincal wrestler, and his major fault to some, is his character, personality and charisma. Though on the Indie's, he doesnt need that because he's THAT well known, and his marks (not used in a derrogetory way) will mark for him and anything he does reguardless of that, because theyre a fan of the show he puts on.
I spoke to Danielson himself at sed indy show I attended, and when asked, he recommended the best place right now for me to train, is in Canada with Lance Storm. The only major fault, is Lance Storm doesnt teach you how to work a crowd.
Chris Hero, I admittedly know nothing about. I seen a video of him fighting a fan, pictures, and seen him live one time.There is a reason why Danielson is on TEN of the best hundred matches of the decade. Instead of telling a story every week, great wrestlers like Bryan Danielson can tell a story within one match. Wrestlers like Bryan Danielson fight for pride, honor, and respect, because he wrestled in an independent promotion where there is no weekly show to tell a story about anything else. Since ROH has a weekly show now, maybe you can see what you are actually arguing against. Well correct me if im wrong, but did Danielson NOT become a big deal until he arrived in ROH? If so, there should be room to tell stories because if your a fan of the promotion, there's always tape trading and videos to buy right? But I just assumed his fame grew from word of mouth about his ability to other indy fans who do respect ability, and he and ROH grew from there. And yes, I would like to tune into ROH should I have the channel, which I dont sadly. I'm very open to giving them a chance, should it be on my own time, like recording an episode. I take it you've never seen any of Jumbo Tsuruta's work. He could work a crowd better than anyone I've ever seen in the history of pro-wrestling. Watch this and tell me that a Japanese guy doesn't know how to work the crowd. John Cena's entrance is an example of working the crowd. That whole time he enter's his attention is devoted to them. . Well listen to all of his entrances. He pretty much had his own chant due to how over he was with the crowd. Also, Inoki is another good example because he also had his own chant during his entrances. He had the crowd in the palm of his hands and could bring the entire crowd to their feet by simply raising a clenched fist. If that's not working the crowd, I don't know what is. 3:00. |
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Post by dod439 on Sept 13, 2010 13:31:31 GMT -5
This a great list and SURPRISE no complaints
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2010 13:31:41 GMT -5
Hey guys I'm the guy who ran this poll over at PWT. I stumbled into this topic via google and figured I'd drop a line. A big thank you to Kick Your Face for posting this!, always like to hear discussions about my results, especially on other boards. This poll ran for 9 months and there were ~500 matches posted for it. I only got 16 ballots, which disappointed me at first, but after counting them up all 16 seemed to be very well researched. Probably the coolest thing is even with the WWE-heavy lists, it still had lots of matches from other promotions. For example Misawa/Kobashi made it on 15 or the 16 lists. I always dig a big variety since it can lead to non-voters checking it out and finding some matches to watch. probably the biggest surprise was the amount of lucha. I had one heavy lucha list, and all the other lucha matches were spread out amongst the other voters. Also was neat to see a few women's matches and old man Fujinami bringing 70's wrestling into the 2000's. Seeing Bryan Danielson on the list so much didn't surprise me at all, the guy is awesome. He had matches from 2002 - 2008 on the list. I knew NOAH would be well represented but seeing some New Japan and All Japan there too was great. Funny thing is I've also ran across other forum posts about the poll and half say there's too much WWE, half say there's too little. :-) I didn't count them up yet but looks like WWE made it on about 1/3 of the Top 100. Hogan/Rock almost made it! It came in #102 and was only 2 points away from the Top 100. Interestingly it DID make my all-time greatest matches poll I ran a year ago: floydscabana.blogspot.com/2008/10/pwt-top-100-matches-of-all-time-20.htmlI dont know anything about making it look pretty but here's the full results if anyone interested: [Name of Match] - [Points] - [# Votes] floydscabana.com/pwt/pwt_count.html |
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Post by ztj_wwf on Sept 13, 2010 18:07:45 GMT -5
The ranking of those matches is beyond ridiculous. HHH/Jack better than HBK/Taker? Angle/HBK? etc. etc.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2010 20:19:30 GMT -5
Good list, but Umaga/Cena at #17 baffles me.
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Post by cattlemutilation on Sept 14, 2010 8:54:35 GMT -5
I'll probably check out some of these when they go up on PWT.
Uhhhhhhhhhh.
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