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Post by extreme on Jul 15, 2011 13:32:52 GMT -5
True, but what if the class you are forced to take is a). genuinely difficult for the student to the point that they nearly or even do fail, b). Said class has ZERO relation to student's major and minor Calculus and chemistry fit that description for many majors. Many colleges require an 'intensive writing' course, usually in political science or philosophy, as part of the general education requirement What's a major that requires calculus and chemistry where those classes aren't useful?
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 15, 2011 13:57:45 GMT -5
What's so bad about General education courses? The list of classes are pretty broad enough that at least some of them would be interesting. I understand the whole 'it has nothing to do with my major/ future job' argument. Trust me, i really do. But you got to understand that people change, and so do their plans. I could have this plan to become a stock broker and a few semesters in after taking finance classes and business classes, I suddenly lose the urge to become one. Now what? I'm back to square one asking myself "what do I want to do/learn?" As Hulk said, at least GE classes give at least some sort introduction to other possible pathways. No one is saying you CAN'T take those classes, only that you shouldn't HAVE to. Why should I have to pay thousands of dollars for a class that I will never use just because some other kid "might" decide that he really likes it? It doesn't make economic sense, it doesn't make educational sense. Instead of taking a class on Astrology for my graphic design degree, don't you think it would've been more beneficial for me to take an additional class on something like Pre-Press Production or even another general art class? Something that at least has something to do with my degree? Instead, I got stuck with the choice between three classes. One was Astrology, another was "The Environment" and the other was something like Biology. None of these classes had ANYTHING to do with my degree, whatsoever. But they were, in essence, my choices (given my schedule). There were a few other pointless classes as well, if I had a more open schedule. But the point is that I knew what I wanted to do, my choice never changed. Yet, I still had to pay a bunch of money to take this stupid Astrology class. I got an "A" in the class, so it wasn't a problem in that way and it helped my (useless) GPA, but I still felt irritated that I had to pay a bunch of money to take the class. To be completely fair though, isn't a lot of work in life about doing things that you don't like/aren't good at? I do stuff every day at work that I hate, but I do it because I also get to do stuff that I love. This is a bad argument. It is equivalent to saying that a person should have to pay to watch paint dry just because they won't like it, because it helps "build character."
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Post by LA Times on Jul 15, 2011 14:01:58 GMT -5
Calculus and chemistry fit that description for many majors. Many colleges require an 'intensive writing' course, usually in political science or philosophy, as part of the general education requirement What's a major that requires calculus and chemistry where those classes aren't useful? Media studies Accounting Sociology History
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 15, 2011 14:42:20 GMT -5
What's a major that requires calculus and chemistry where those classes aren't useful? Media studies Accounting Sociology History At what school? I know for a fact that those were not required for those majors at the college I went to.
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Post by Cult Member BriGuy on Jul 15, 2011 14:44:01 GMT -5
What about graduate school? Just as pointless? What do you guys think of graduate school where it's more specialized?
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 15, 2011 15:23:03 GMT -5
I should also say that a university is NOT a place to get a highly specialized degree and never has been. That's for grad school. If you want a specialized education without going to grad school, then a trade school is what you're looking for. People wanting specialized degrees at the undergraduate level are expecting too much. Undergraduate studies have never been that way.
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 15, 2011 15:36:09 GMT -5
I went to an art school and still had to take those dumbass classes.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 15, 2011 15:42:12 GMT -5
I went to an art school and still had to take those dumbass classes. Let's be honest, it's not like an art school degree is going to earn you tons of money. Besides, what kind of college offers a course in Astrology? It makes scientifically provable claims (stars influence your personality, destiny, etc..........) with absolutely no scientific backing whatsoever. It's complete bunk.
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 15, 2011 15:47:48 GMT -5
I went to an art school and still had to take those dumbass classes. Let's be honest, it's not like an art school degree is going to earn you tons of money. Besides, what kind of college offers a course in Astrology? It makes scientifically provable claims (stars influence your personality, destiny, etc..........) with absolutely no scientific backing whatsoever. It's complete bunk. Derp. I meant Astronomy (see how useful it has been?). I make a good wage, personally, but again; it's not all because I went to college.
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mazz
Mid-Carder
Joined on: Mar 20, 2008 18:51:55 GMT -5
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Post by mazz on Jul 15, 2011 16:44:01 GMT -5
Seriously anyone that complains that college is 'too hard' or filled with 'useless classes' obviously is not cut out for it. Just because you pay for it, doesn't give you the right to dictate how the system works. Certain criteria needs to be met before a degree can be given, that's why college's don't hand them out to students for taking their favorite classes.
Is this such a hard concept to get around? Also- to anyone who absolutely despises the idea of college, go get a fulltime job instead out of high school and let me know how that worked out for you in ten years.
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AONI
Superstar
Joined on: Jul 8, 2008 22:10:17 GMT -5
Posts: 563
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Post by AONI on Jul 15, 2011 16:56:10 GMT -5
Also- to anyone who absolutely despises the idea of college, go get a fulltime job instead out of high school and let me know how that worked out for you in ten years. according to the video, youll end up debt free and stressless. lol, with like $200,000 in your pocket
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Post by spamdfms101 on Jul 15, 2011 17:00:43 GMT -5
Also- to anyone who absolutely despises the idea of college, go get a fulltime job instead out of high school and let me know how that worked out for you in ten years. according to the video, youll end up debt free and stressless. lol, with like $200,000 in your pocket The video said a person who gets a job out of high school will make 35k a year. Yeah right. That was their "average" too. Show me a kid who makes that much right out of high school. And the woman they showed made 80k a year. She needs to learn how to manage her money.
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AONI
Superstar
Joined on: Jul 8, 2008 22:10:17 GMT -5
Posts: 563
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Post by AONI on Jul 15, 2011 17:44:41 GMT -5
according to the video, youll end up debt free and stressless. lol, with like $200,000 in your pocket The video said a person who gets a job out of high school will make 35k a year. Yeah right. That was their "average" too. Show me a kid who makes that much right out of high school. And the woman they showed made 80k a year. She needs to learn how to manage her money. the video seems to be purposely disingenuous...i wonder why
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 15, 2011 21:14:38 GMT -5
Seriously anyone that complains that college is 'too hard' or filled with 'useless classes' obviously is not cut out for it. Just because you pay for it, doesn't give you the right to dictate how the system works. Certain criteria needs to be met before a degree can be given, that's why college's don't hand them out to students for taking their favorite classes. Is this such a hard concept to get around? Also- to anyone who absolutely despises the idea of college, go get a fulltime job instead out of high school and let me know how that worked out for you in ten years. Yes, god forbid things are changed to make them better. What is your logical explanation on why a person should have to have a degree to "prove" that they can do something? There are many, many other ways to prove that someone is capable of performing a task.
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Post by Roody on Jul 15, 2011 21:59:02 GMT -5
I'm going into my 3rd year at a private Catholic University. I'm a Journalism major with a minor in Marketing. I have taken more religious classes already than I will take for classes in my major. We are required to take approximately 6-8 classes based on religious roots -classes including Catholic Heritage, Moral Philosophy, Religious Texts, and a few others that are not deeply related to religion, but they work it in. It's ridiculous.
$40,000 a year to take 4 classes a year in my major field basically. Luckily, I don't pay a dime for it. I am actually being paid to attend college there.
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Post by Yeezy's Mullet: Team X Blades on Jul 15, 2011 22:01:59 GMT -5
Seriously anyone that complains that college is 'too hard' or filled with 'useless classes' obviously is not cut out for it. Just because you pay for it, doesn't give you the right to dictate how the system works. Certain criteria needs to be met before a degree can be given, that's why college's don't hand them out to students for taking their favorite classes. Is this such a hard concept to get around? Also- to anyone who absolutely despises the idea of college, go get a fulltime job instead out of high school and let me know how that worked out for you in ten years. This is the attitude that I can't stand though. Higher education for me is something I have mixed feelings on. I know that having a degree opens many doors and it's alot harder to obtain and maintain a decent living without one. I just really disdain the "american dream" idea of education. You know what I'm talking about. The whole "go to highschool, graduate, go to college, get a degree, get a well paying job, live happily ever after." I hate that it's treated as the only way to go in society. I hate that when someone like me doesn't want to follow that path, he's looked at as lazy, and as one who lacks ambition. It couldn't be farther from the truth. Don't even get me started on how much money it costs to even go to ANY college. All I ever wanted to do was be a cop, and serve people. Thankfully, you don't need a degree for that. Now I do plan on getting my degree, but on my own time. Not someone else's who's paying my tuition. It going to be because of opportunities that I want to explore. Not because society tells me I need to have one by the time I'm 21 to be an effective person in this world.
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Post by HHH316 on Jul 15, 2011 23:50:20 GMT -5
From experience, I believe college benefited me. My education opened a lot of doors for me as a photographer & I don't think I would have met 25% of the people who have helped me along the way without it. I do agree that college is not for everyone, but the biggest scam coming from college is the price tag. For me to attend a 4 year private college costed me enough to buy a very large house.
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mazz
Mid-Carder
Joined on: Mar 20, 2008 18:51:55 GMT -5
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Post by mazz on Jul 16, 2011 0:03:50 GMT -5
Seriously anyone that complains that college is 'too hard' or filled with 'useless classes' obviously is not cut out for it. Just because you pay for it, doesn't give you the right to dictate how the system works. Certain criteria needs to be met before a degree can be given, that's why college's don't hand them out to students for taking their favorite classes. Is this such a hard concept to get around? Also- to anyone who absolutely despises the idea of college, go get a fulltime job instead out of high school and let me know how that worked out for you in ten years. Yes, god forbid things are changed to make them better. What is your logical explanation on why a person should have to have a degree to "prove" that they can do something? There are many, many other ways to prove that someone is capable of performing a task. The logical explanation is, a degree helps to distinguish you from anyone else who is vying for the same position. Essentially, it is proof that you are qualified to begin pursuing a professional career in the major of your choosing. It provides instant credibility when looking for employment, and can speak volumes to employers of your character and work ethic. Honestly, there just is not a better way to distinguish those who are qualified to fill a position and those who are not. Being that most of us do live in America, the best jobs will of course always go to the most competitive candidates. The best way to prove that you are seriously dedicated to a career is to pursue a higher education. What are your suggestions on what a better way to differentiate between who is qualified for certain employment and who is not? Would you trust someone to operate on you if he didn't have a doctorate?
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Squatch
Main Eventer
Joined on: Feb 17, 2010 14:16:53 GMT -5
Posts: 3,597
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Post by Squatch on Jul 16, 2011 0:15:27 GMT -5
I think college is good. I want to be a graphic designer or film director, so if I wanted to I don't have to go. The problem is my parents want me to. I honestly believe college is only necessary for trying to get a bigger job like as a doctor. It can also span down to mechanics and enterpreneurship classes. I would go to learn more about enterpreneurship so I can own my business for something like graphic design.
People need to realize college isn't for all people and everyone shouldn't go.
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 16, 2011 0:39:36 GMT -5
The logical explanation is, a degree helps to distinguish you from anyone else who is vying for the same position. Essentially, it is proof that you are qualified to begin pursuing a professional career in the major of your choosing. It provides instant credibility when looking for employment, and can speak volumes to employers of your character and work ethic. Honestly, there just is not a better way to distinguish those who are qualified to fill a position and those who are not. Being that most of us do live in America, the best jobs will of course always go to the most competitive candidates. The best way to prove that you are seriously dedicated to a career is to pursue a higher education. What are your suggestions on what a better way to differentiate between who is qualified for certain employment and who is not? Would you trust someone to operate on you if he didn't have a doctorate? First of all, I want to re-iterate that I have a graphic design degree... But anyway... 1) A degree does not prove that a person is capable of performing a job. It proves that the person is capable of completing busywork in a timely fashion. 2) No one is saying that under our current system, a degree does not help people get better jobs. Only that HOW MUCH it helps is debateable. And that this system is part of the reason why we have so many unqualified people in positions right now because they have no actual experience, only a degree that says, "I know how to do this." 3) You're using a very extreme example with a medical degree, but I'll play along anyway... I believe that a "degree" does nothing to prove that you are able to perform an operation. Is it guaranteed that a person with a degree will be able to perform surgery on another person successfully? No. Is it a guarantee that if a person does NOT have a degree, that they won't be able to perform the surgery successfully? No. Is it a good barometer? Yeah, under this system we have, it's the best we can do at the moment. But the entire concept is that people should be able to learn trades without having to go to a four-year (or in this case eight-year) college. In fact, you CAN learn trades without going to college. Being a doctor is a pretty extreme example because peoples lives are in your hands and you can't really "test" your skills unless you have live people to perform on. But in some cases, there may be people who have the financial resources or even the resources due to their parents who may also be doctors, that they could be able to learn a lot of their craft without ever having attended college. Just for an example, I honestly feel like I learned practically nothing in college. Anyone who knows me, knows that I started doing graphic design when I was about 14. I was creating logos for businesses, designing websites, working on print materials, learning flash, etc. by the time I was 16. I did this on my own time, by learning from free resources on the world's largest information tool - the internet. If I had to make a pie chart that broke down the percentage of information I learned prior to school versus in school, the pie chart would look like Pac-Man with the part I learned in school being swallowed up by the part I learned beforehand. Quite frankly, had I not been spending all of my time doing pointless busywork for school, I probably could've been learning NEW things that were just coming out. The stuff I would have been learning had I been using the internet as my major resource, versus the textbooks and instruction provided to me by the institution I was giving my hard-earned money to. Yet, I still had to pay thousands and thousands of dollars to walk away with a degree. What did I pay for? What did this school provide for me, for my thousands of dollars? Simply, a piece of paper. The education I received was mediocre at best. I could EASILY be doing my job that I have now with the skills I had when I was 18, before I attended college. But when I tell people this story, they tell me, "Well see, it was worth it! It helped you get a job!" This is the wrong mentality to have. Why is this country not fostering ACTUAL LEARNING? Why do we look past the best ways of learning in favor of this blatantly ridiculous, government-structured horseshit? According to this theory that is being presented, it is better for me to have learned NOTHING and acquired a degree than it would be for me to have spent that same amount of time expanding my knowledge on the subject, providing services to clients, etc. Somehow, actual experience is worth less than a piece of paper that says, "You were a good little slave. Congrats!"
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