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Post by Tim of thee on Jan 5, 2012 4:49:07 GMT -5
nick, who do you replace him with and attain immediate results? I still think right now their best chance at staying competitive is to go with the status quo which has put together some pretty stellar seasons I will also argue that AJ has found some good players elsewhere, like in the middle rounds and after the drafts.. look, as soon as we would fire them, some other team would have scooped them right up and they would have success wherever they land I am willing to give them another shot next season, AND THEN I will see where the team is.. they have no choice, really.. The status quo worked because they had the greatest running back of the past decade on their roster, in his prime, playing with the greatest fullback of the past decade, in his prime. They had Merriman who was a pretty good pass-rusher, Brees and Rivers who are both elite QB's. Tomlinson is gone. The glory days of the Chargers are gone. No longer is one player going to pull that poopty roster out of the toilet and into the playoffs as the No. 1 or No. 2 seed. They might win the division, but only because of it being a complete joke. The Chargers are aging everywhere that matters. As we've shown in this thread, there aren't many elite players on the team. There really aren't even many "very good" players. What players has AJ Smith hit on in the mid-late rounds in recent years? I mean, since Turner came. Eric Weddle in the 2nd round. Who else? Everyone else is garbage. The drafting has been atrocious. What leads you to believe that there are better days ahead? Just for a quick comparison, let's compare them to the Cowboys. Dallas hasn't been AMAZING at drafting, but we don't even have a GM. Our GM is basically Jerry Jones, who people claim is too involved in the team. We've gone through four head coaches in 10 years, including three since 2005. This means different systems, different coaching techniques, coaches trying to find "their guy" at specific positions, etc. Still, look at the draft history... 2007:1: Anthony Spencer - Starting OLB, pretty good player 4: Doug Free - Starting LT 6: Nick Folk - Hate him, but he is the starting K on the Jets now 7: Alan Ball - Hate him too, but he's a starting safety 2008: 1: Felix Jones - Starting RB 2: Mike Jenkins - Starting CB 4: Tashard Choice - Not a great player, but a serviceable backup RB 5: Orlando Scandrick - Decent nickel cornerback 2009: (didn't have a 1st or 2nd round pick this year) 4: Stephen McGee - Seems to be an okay backup QB This draft was a trainwreck for the most part. 2010: 1: Dez Bryant - Has been injured, but shown signs of being a legit WR 2: Sean Lee - Could be one of the better picks of the entire draft. Anchors the interior of the Cowboys defense. 2011: 1: Tyron Smith - Appears to have all the tools to be an upper-tier LT (or an elite RT) in the NFL 3: DeMarco Murray - Absolutely tore it up when he was healthy ... And again, that's not even a team that's very good at drafting. That's just a DECENT drafting team. Do you see how many names I listed off? And how many does San Diego have? 4 or 5 total maybe? Almost all of their first round picks have been complete bums. Do you know what I see from the Chargers in the future? At least 5 more years of being mediocre. Why? Because they are so freaking thin, it's ridiculous. You can't miss on 90% of your draft picks and expect to get better. It's just not logical. Tell me - what has AJ Smith done in the past four years that has been GOOD for the team in the long run? How about Norv Turner? Who has he developed? Before you say "develop Philip Rivers," remember that Marty Schottenheimer coached that team to a 14-2 record with the No. 1 offense in the NFL before Norv Turner took over. They were an elite offense before Turner ever coached in San Diego. Who do I replace them with? I don't know. I'm not an NFL owner. I don't spend my days looking at who are available as GM's... But I can guarantee you one thing - if the guys I had were doing as bad of a job as Turner and Smith have been, they would be gone and I'd be doing my research right now on who the next person to hire is. AJ has done a good job of finding talent in the middle rounds, many of which became starters on the team.. lets look kris dielman - undrafted marcus mcniel - 2nd round malcom floyd - undrafted mike tolbert - undrafted darren sproles - 4th round michael tuner - 5th round cam thomas - 5th rounder (rotational starter due to the CONSTANT injuries) louis vasquez - 2nd round (starter on the line) tyronne green - 4th round starter antione cason - 1st round starter jacob hester - 2nd round starter and the list continues my problem with smith is not with him not being able to find talent, it's keeping it around that I take issue with.. at one point we had ladainian tomlinson, mike turner, and darren sproles in the backfield.. lets analyze what happened with that.. LT got hurt, Turner was great, so great in fact that in the contract year, we had to choose between LT, the face of the franchise or Turner.. 2020 hindsight tells us to keep Turner... the same situation with the Brees/Rivers predicament.. in 2010, the Chargers had the best defense and offense in the league, but missed the playoffs.. I'd like to keep Turner around atleast one more year.. it's not like a new coach is going to come in and start tearing it up.. I asked you who should come in and replace Turner and AJ and never got an answer.. it sounds ike you're saying to blindly blow things up.. not a good plan.. sounds completely knee jerk just like Giants fans every year... Turner has the respect of his team.. even Rivers vouched for Turner to return.. I said above that if we were to fire turner, he would go to another team and make that team immediately better, same goes for AJ.. and yet, we are going to let them walk? look, I am sick of the mediocrity because I know my team is better than this, but we really need to take a strong look at the amount of injuries we have each and every year for the past 5 years.. larry english, buster davis never saw the field because they were hurt as soon as they put on the helmet.. I think we need to address strength and conditioning this offseason.. people say that injuries are just an excuse, but really, with this team, I think it's ridiculous..
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Post by Kliquid on Jan 5, 2012 5:33:44 GMT -5
AJ has done a good job of finding talent in the middle rounds, many of which became starters on the team.. lets look kris dielman - undrafted marcus mcniel - 2nd round malcom floyd - undrafted mike tolbert - undrafted darren sproles - 4th round michael tuner - 5th round cam thomas - 5th rounder (rotational starter due to the CONSTANT injuries) louis vasquez - 2nd round (starter on the line) tyronne green - 4th round starter antione cason - 1st round starter jacob hester - 2nd round starter Like I said, THE ONLY good player who is on that list who was drafted under Norv Turner's regime is Mike Tolbert. And you picked him up out of free agency. Let's not act like they were some draft geniuses and came across some gem. Even they passed on him every round. Antoine Cason ing sucks. He's a huge bust. He might be starting for the Chargers, but that's only because the other players they've drafted in recent years and picked up out of free agency have somehow been worse. It's not because he's good. When you draft a ing fullback that early, he BETTER be your starter... And he's not very good anyway. He's serviceable at best. You're seriously grasping at straws to include the majority of these guys. lets analyze what happened with that.. LT got hurt, Turner was great, so great in fact that in the contract year, we had to choose between LT, the face of the franchise or Turner.. 2020 hindsight tells us to keep Turner... the same situation with the Brees/Rivers predicament.. I don't blame them for keeping Rivers. Sure Brees has ended up turning into an elite player, but who's to say he was going to be that in San Diego? It's not like Philip Rivers hasn't been great. No harm, no foul there. I don't blame him for that one. in 2010, the Chargers had the best defense and offense in the league, but missed the playoffs.. I'd like to keep Turner around atleast one more year.. it's not like a new coach is going to come in and start tearing it up.. Shouldn't that tell you something? Shouldn't that tell you that even when the team is at its ABSOLUTE BEST that they're still not good enough to win? Something needs to change. Look at the development of players. This team isn't getting better. That's when you cut ties with coaches. Continual bad coaching leads to even very talented players not ever panning out. I'd like to believe that it's only AJ Smith making bad draft picks, but Turner's in on it, too. Then Turner fails to make them into good players. Seriously, four out of five of their first round picks as a 'team' have been complete and utter shit. I can forgive one. I can maybe even forgive two. I might even be able to forgive three if other things are panning out. But the Chargers have missed the playoffs twice in a row in perhaps the weakest division in football. It's time for them to go. I asked you who should come in and replace Turner and AJ and never got an answer.. it sounds ike you're saying to blindly blow things up.. not a good plan.. sounds completely knee jerk just like Giants fans every year... I responded and said that I'm not an NFL owner so I'm not going to act like I'm some brilliant front office manager when it comes to figuring out who is going to do a great job. But I do know that there's no way I'm going to sit through another draft class like the Chargers have had in recent years and set my franchise back again and again, expecting different results along the way. Five draft classes is enough. This is a failed team. Period. As far as coaches go, there are a number of good coaches available. Jeff Fisher is an elite NFL head coach and I have said that for years and years. No one gets more out of less than that man. In fact, if I'm the Chargers, I give him full control as a GM/Head coach. I'm that confident in him. Also, the Giants just won the Super Bowl in 2007 and remain competitive in perhaps the toughest year-by-year division in the NFL. Not the same situation at all. Turner has the respect of his team.. even Rivers vouched for Turner to return.. I'm sure he did. When is the last time that an NFL team's players have said, "FIRE OUR COACH!!!" ? Think about it. I said above that if we were to fire turner, he would go to another team and make that team immediately better, same goes for AJ.. Track records say otherwise. I say let them draft horsecrapplayers and not develop the talent they do get elsewhere. and yet, we are going to let them walk? If you want to get better, yes. look, I am sick of the mediocrity because I know my team is better than this, but we really need to take a strong look at the amount of injuries we have each and every year for the past 5 years.. larry english, buster davis never saw the field because they were hurt as soon as they put on the helmet.. I think we need to address strength and conditioning this offseason.. people say that injuries are just an excuse, but really, with this team, I think it's ridiculous.. Dude, Larry English played every game in his rookie year. He ing sucks. Buster Davis missed 2 games his rookie year and didn't see the field because, like Larry English, he ing sucks. Just because they got injured later does not negate the fact that they were first round picks who produced absolutely NOTHING before they got hurt.
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Post by King Bálor (CM)™ on Jan 5, 2012 9:13:51 GMT -5
I didnt say it was hands down. I can see an argument for the NFC West being softer. But if its not the softest....its the second softest. You get what I am saying. Again, you are wrong. We had three 8-8 teams and a 7-9. NOT ONE other division in the NFL this season had its LAST place team at 7-9. The AFC West hasn't been that good for a while, thus everybody's so used to saying "The AFC West is a joke" that it's just become easy to say... but they are not looking at the FACTS. Since I suspect you're rather lazy, let me go ahead and provide you with some: AFC West out-of-division wins: DEN: NYJ, MIA, CIN, MIN, CHI SD: MIN, MIA, JAC, BUF, BAL OAK: NYJ, HOU, CLE, MIN, CHI KC: MIN, IND, CHI, GB Not GREAT, not BAD. I see 4 playoff teams in there. Collectively beat the NFC North. Every team in our division beat a playoff team. You can't say that about the NFC West, NFC East, NFC North, AFC East, and AFC North (in other words, ALL the other divisions in the NFL except the AFC South, with the Colts getting one at the end against the Texans).And if you watched the game, KC punched GB right in the mouth. GB led ONCE by 1 and it was erased rather quickly. They couldn't stop Orton or the Chiefs' running game, nor get any rhythm on offense. That is getting flat out beat. Meanwhile, we got you and others saying we're bad, soft, whatever. What about the NFC East this year? the Eagles went 5-1 in the division, but finished only 8-8. Should I call the NFC East soft? A 9-7 winner came out of that one. People aren't criticizing the Patriots for not having ONE win against a team with a winning record (I know they're THAT good, but still). Last time I checked, Redskins, Colts, Jaguars, Vikings, Buccaneers, Panthers, Rams, Browns, Cardinals, Dolphins, and Bills don't belong in the AFC West. Get the out of here with that bullpoop already. No we are not. Are the Panthers an elite team? They have a very good dual-threat QB, two very good tight-ends, and an elite receiver. Oh yeah, I guess you forgot about defense. You are a comedian. Nice back-tracking too. How the am I supposed to interpret "right on the outside of elite". Then you proceed to say he's "on the outside looking in". Well, which one? Do they mean the same thing? What are you saying with that? I will take that as you saying, "Hey, and Mathews is pretty damn close to being an elite running back". THAT'S NOT TRUE! Jamaal Charles has proven more than Mathews on the football field. Look up his stats. I will say he is better than Mathews with the courage of my convictions. From what I've seen when Darren McFadden was healthy, I will flat out say that he is currently better than Mathews. I'd think a lot of people would agree with that. DeAngelo Williams and Stewart have proven to be pretty good. Williams had a MONSTER 2008 season and a pretty good 2009 season. He was injured last year, and saw less carries this year because they have a QB who likes to carry a lot as well. Regarding your "this isn't fantasy football" comment - all I have to say to that is certain players are drafted ahead of other players for a reason. Certain players score more points than other players for a reason. Tell ya what....I'll punch a hole in my own argument, since you cant. Matthews isnt a top 10 RB or top 12 RB b/c he has only gotten the job done for one season. I'm willing to accept that. Hell, I would be willing to back off my own statement a bit b/c of that thinking. But I doubt you will find too many people who'll say the same thing about Cam Newton. Newton was a beast this year and looks to be a guy to take Carolina into the future. Guess what....he did it for 1 season. So all those who are saying Cam is one of the best in the league.....that argument is flawed. So your entire division is soft is all those stats you threw out proved? You really want anyone to believe this is a solid division. That these teams can compete with the higherarchy of the NFL? You show me a bunch of wins against a bunch of other mediocre teams like Minn, Miami, Buffalo, Clev, Indy and want people to believe this is a tough division!?!?!? Then you have wins over teams like Chicago and NY, where you neglect to mention how CHI was no longer competitive missing their QB and 80% of their offense in Matt Forte. And NY was beginning their slide into oblivion. You get a Cin. team that beat ZERO teams with a winning record this season. And then the mighty KC over GB win, which was nothing but a gift from GB. How about those facts? 4 victories over playoff teams....oh wow. Seattle was a playoff team last year at 7-9. Doesnt mean much. Cin. cant beat anyone with a winning record. Houston was banged up on injury and Raiders were playing for Al Davis. Run that game again with the same players and no death of Al Davis and Houston wins. The gift from GB. And yeah....the Chargers win over Baltimore...thats all that is left. The panthers arent an elite team. They have a rookie QB that has played 1 season. 2 very good TEs, and a very good used to be elite WR headed for the downside of his career. Whats elite there? I dont even udnerstand what you are getting at with this. How do you interpret "right outside elite"? Hmmmmm....I dont know...READ what I wrote. I did explain that. Someone asked. I said what my definition was. You might not agree with my definition and thats fine. But I explained to you what I meant and clearly you have chosen to ignore it. Right on the outside and outside looking in....are the SAME ING THING!!! Holy Christ! FF drafting isnt always about measuring who is the best player. Sometimes picks are made for value at a certain round or need at a certain position. First round...yeah. People are taking the best player possible. But you wont find too many drafts where Aaron Rodgers went #1 overall this year. So using your logic, I think you will find not everyone from your list was chosen ahead of matthews in ff drafts. AP, rice, MJD, McCoy, McFadden, Foster, Forte, Charles, Chris Johnson and Frank Gore all went ahead...more than likely. Fred jackson, Benson, Lynch, Bradshaw....did not.
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Post by T R W on Jan 5, 2012 10:55:56 GMT -5
I wonder if the Eagles gauged Jeff Fisher's interest in coming there before deciding on whether or not to keep Andy Reed another year. They made it clear in the press conference that if there isn't improvement, he's gone. I think he would have been a great fit for Philly, and if I could dump Reed and land Fisher, I would do it in a hearbeat.
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Post by Greg Weinstein on Jan 5, 2012 16:08:34 GMT -5
So your entire division is soft is all those stats you threw out proved? You really want anyone to believe this is a solid division. That these teams can compete with the higherarchy of the NFL? I like how you go from one end of the spectrum to the other. No, I am not saying they are a solid division. I am saying that they aren't a ing terrible division like everyone says they are. Every division in the NFL has crapteams every year. What makes the AFC West so bad? Did half of the teams in the AFC West finish with under 4 wins or something? I don't get it... You show me a bunch of wins against a bunch of other mediocre teams like Minn, Miami, Buffalo, Clev, Indy and want people to believe this is a tough division!?!?!? I actually showed you the good teams they beat as well. I didn't even bother throwing in the better teams of the NFL that our division played tough against, such as GB 45 @ SD 38 SD 21 @ NYJ 27 PIT 13 @ KC 9 DET 28 @ OAK 27 OAK 35 @ BUF 38 (when BUF was playing well) It's not like the teams in our division are getting steamrolled every week. Then you have wins over teams like Chicago and NY, where you neglect to mention how CHI was no longer competitive missing their QB and 80% of their offense in Matt Forte. And NY was beginning their slide into oblivion. You get a Cin. team that beat ZERO teams with a winning record this season. And then the mighty KC over GB win, which was nothing but a gift from GB. How about those facts? Yup, and you neglect to mention TIM TEBOW and TYLER PALKO were their respective teams' QBs when they BEAT the Chicago Bears. The Bears still had a very good defense. It wasn't a gift, LOL. It's one thing if they led 20-3 and lose 24-20 or something. That wasn't the case. By the way, the Bengals beat the Titans in their house a few months back. The Titans finished 9-7. As shocked as I am, you are wrong again. 4 victories over playoff teams....oh wow. Seattle was a playoff team last year at 7-9. Doesnt mean much. Cin. cant beat anyone with a winning record. Houston was banged up on injury and Raiders were playing for Al Davis. Run that game again with the same players and no death of Al Davis and Houston wins. The gift from GB. And yeah....the Chargers win over Baltimore...thats all that is left. In case you haven't looked, the teams in this year's playoffs are pretty good. Yup, that win was because Al Davis died. Shame they couldn't make the playoffs when all they needed to do was beat my Chargers in the final week at home. You'd think Al Davis would've wanted that too. Oh and guess what, NOT ONE TEAM FROM THE AFC EAST BEAT A TEAM WITH A WINNING RECORD! Are they a crapdivision now? The panthers arent an elite team. They have a rookie QB that has played 1 season. 2 very good TEs, and a very good used to be elite WR headed for the downside of his career. Whats elite there? I dont even udnerstand what you are getting at with this. You literally said "there arent too many that have 3 skill positions like the Chargers do". The Panthers do. I'd take DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart over Mathews and Tolbert in a heartbeat. Don't even kid yourself. Just 3 years ago they were the best running duo in the NFL (maybe tied with the Giants, who had a three-headed monster that year). How do you interpret "right outside elite"? Hmmmmm....I dont know...READ what I wrote. I did explain that. Someone asked. I said what my definition was. You might not agree with my definition and thats fine. But I explained to you what I meant and clearly you have chosen to ignore it. No, I didn't ignore it. The problem is, you can't use a cogent argument to support your claim of how you rank Mathews that high. You're the one AVOIDING that one, and then of course you back-tracked. Nice. Right on the outside and outside looking in....are the SAME ING THING!!! Holy Christ! *sigh*... no crapSherlock, see why I'm calling you out on that ridiculous claim? FF drafting isnt always about measuring who is the best player. Sometimes picks are made for value at a certain round or need at a certain position. First round...yeah. People are taking the best player possible. But you wont find too many drafts where Aaron Rodgers went #1 overall this year. So using your logic, I think you will find not everyone from your list was chosen ahead of matthews in ff drafts. AP, rice, MJD, McCoy, McFadden, Foster, Forte, Charles, Chris Johnson and Frank Gore all went ahead...more than likely. Fred jackson, Benson, Lynch, Bradshaw....did not. Okay, great. Just know that I can make the case that Ryan Mathews isn't even a top 16 RB in the NFL right now.
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Post by Kliquid on Jan 5, 2012 16:49:23 GMT -5
No, I am not saying they are a solid division. I am saying that they aren't a ing terrible division like everyone says they are. Every division in the NFL has poop teams every year. What makes the AFC West so bad? Did half of the teams in the AFC West finish with under 4 wins or something? I don't get it... When is the last time an AFC West team even made it to the Super Bowl? It's an awful division man. The Broncos won it. The Chiefs won it last year. It's really, REALLY bad.
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Jamal
Main Eventer
Joined on: Nov 24, 2005 14:53:44 GMT -5
Posts: 4,877
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Post by Jamal on Jan 5, 2012 17:23:11 GMT -5
Oh why didn't you say that earlier? My gosh I take everything back, now that Steve Young went out and said that... Ohhhh...you are one of those internet guys that thinks every NFL expert doesnt know poop. So when does your draft big board come out? Kiper and McShay told me at the airport at 5am they cant wait. I don't know about that, but I'm definitely one of those "internet guys" who knows more than you. You're pretty much pretty proving it after every one of your lame replies. I can go in to detail but kilquid has pretty much stated as clear as anyone can, that the Chargers do not have elite
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Post by captain master talbot on Jan 5, 2012 17:37:55 GMT -5
You can tell its a sh*tty division when it's the norm for the Division Champ to be 8-8. When its not, its the Chargers who feast on the sh*ttiness of the other teams.
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Dexter Morgan
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jul 8, 2008 15:30:18 GMT -5
Posts: 3,130
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Post by Dexter Morgan on Jan 5, 2012 18:48:10 GMT -5
Me and him went around on this before. He ignores all logic and reason on the AFC West being bad.
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Post by Tim of thee on Jan 5, 2012 18:52:20 GMT -5
AJ has done a good job of finding talent in the middle rounds, many of which became starters on the team.. lets look kris dielman - undrafted marcus mcniel - 2nd round malcom floyd - undrafted mike tolbert - undrafted darren sproles - 4th round michael tuner - 5th round cam thomas - 5th rounder (rotational starter due to the CONSTANT injuries) louis vasquez - 2nd round (starter on the line) tyronne green - 4th round starter antione cason - 1st round starter jacob hester - 2nd round starter Like I said, THE ONLY good player who is on that list who was drafted under Norv Turner's regime is Mike Tolbert. And you picked him up out of free agency. Let's not act like they were some draft geniuses and came across some gem. Even they passed on him every round. Antoine Cason ing sucks. He's a huge bust. He might be starting for the Chargers, but that's only because the other players they've drafted in recent years and picked up out of free agency have somehow been worse. It's not because he's good. When you draft a ing fullback that early, he BETTER be your starter... And he's not very good anyway. He's serviceable at best. You're seriously grasping at straws to include the majority of these guys. I don't blame them for keeping Rivers. Sure Brees has ended up turning into an elite player, but who's to say he was going to be that in San Diego? It's not like Philip Rivers hasn't been great. No harm, no foul there. I don't blame him for that one. Shouldn't that tell you something? Shouldn't that tell you that even when the team is at its ABSOLUTE BEST that they're still not good enough to win? Something needs to change. Look at the development of players. This team isn't getting better. That's when you cut ties with coaches. Continual bad coaching leads to even very talented players not ever panning out. I'd like to believe that it's only AJ Smith making bad draft picks, but Turner's in on it, too. Then Turner fails to make them into good players. Seriously, four out of five of their first round picks as a 'team' have been complete and utter poop. I can forgive one. I can maybe even forgive two. I might even be able to forgive three if other things are panning out. But the Chargers have missed the playoffs twice in a row in perhaps the weakest division in football. It's time for them to go. I responded and said that I'm not an NFL owner so I'm not going to act like I'm some brilliant front office manager when it comes to figuring out who is going to do a great job. But I do know that there's no way I'm going to sit through another draft class like the Chargers have had in recent years and set my franchise back again and again, expecting different results along the way. Five draft classes is enough. This is a failed team. Period. As far as coaches go, there are a number of good coaches available. Jeff Fisher is an elite NFL head coach and I have said that for years and years. No one gets more out of less than that man. In fact, if I'm the Chargers, I give him full control as a GM/Head coach. I'm that confident in him. Also, the Giants just won the Super Bowl in 2007 and remain competitive in perhaps the toughest year-by-year division in the NFL. Not the same situation at all. I'm sure he did. When is the last time that an NFL team's players have said, "FIRE OUR COACH!!!" ? Think about it. Track records say otherwise. I say let them draft horsepoop players and not develop the talent they do get elsewhere. If you want to get better, yes. look, I am sick of the mediocrity because I know my team is better than this, but we really need to take a strong look at the amount of injuries we have each and every year for the past 5 years.. larry english, buster davis never saw the field because they were hurt as soon as they put on the helmet.. I think we need to address strength and conditioning this offseason.. people say that injuries are just an excuse, but really, with this team, I think it's ridiculous.. Dude, Larry English played every game in his rookie year. He ing sucks. Buster Davis missed 2 games his rookie year and didn't see the field because, like Larry English, he ing sucks. Just because they got injured later does not negate the fact that they were first round picks who produced absolutely NOTHING before they got hurt. you make valid points all around, but I just can't get behind the thought that firing both your head coach and gm who have had success in the past is a good idea.. people always forget that Turner holds the best winning percentage of any coach in Chargers history.. meaning he is more successful year after year than Don Coryell and Bobby Ross, both acclaimed coaches in the community.. I believe it is knee jerk to throw a bomb in it and start again.. people were pissed when we got rid of Marty, but the following season they were thrilled because we made it so far in the post season, at least getting our first playoff win in over a decade.. Norv has the respect of the players.. I believe in him and I am willing to ride on once more.. and the hot seat is good for both Turner and Smith I don't believe Fisher is right for the job as both GM and head coach.. who has had that power and won a Superbowl in the last 10 years?
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Post by King Bálor (CM)™ on Jan 5, 2012 19:41:09 GMT -5
So your entire division is soft is all those stats you threw out proved? You really want anyone to believe this is a solid division. That these teams can compete with the higherarchy of the NFL? I like how you go from one end of the spectrum to the other. No, I am not saying they are a solid division. I am saying that they aren't a ing terrible division like everyone says they are. Every division in the NFL has poop teams every year. What makes the AFC West so bad? Did half of the teams in the AFC West finish with under 4 wins or something? I don't get it... I actually showed you the good teams they beat as well. I didn't even bother throwing in the better teams of the NFL that our division played tough against, such as GB 45 @ SD 38 SD 21 @ NYJ 27 PIT 13 @ KC 9 DET 28 @ OAK 27 OAK 35 @ BUF 38 (when BUF was playing well) It's not like the teams in our division are getting steamrolled every week. Yup, and you neglect to mention TIM TEBOW and TYLER PALKO were their respective teams' QBs when they BEAT the Chicago Bears. The Bears still had a very good defense. It wasn't a gift, LOL. It's one thing if they led 20-3 and lose 24-20 or something. That wasn't the case. By the way, the Bengals beat the Titans in their house a few months back. The Titans finished 9-7. As shocked as I am, you are wrong again. In case you haven't looked, the teams in this year's playoffs are pretty good. Yup, that win was because Al Davis died. Shame they couldn't make the playoffs when all they needed to do was beat my Chargers in the final week at home. You'd think Al Davis would've wanted that too. Oh and guess what, NOT ONE TEAM FROM THE AFC EAST BEAT A TEAM WITH A WINNING RECORD! Are they a poop division now? You literally said "there arent too many that have 3 skill positions like the Chargers do". The Panthers do. I'd take DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart over Mathews and Tolbert in a heartbeat. Don't even kid yourself. Just 3 years ago they were the best running duo in the NFL (maybe tied with the Giants, who had a three-headed monster that year). No, I didn't ignore it. The problem is, you can't use a cogent argument to support your claim of how you rank Mathews that high. You're the one AVOIDING that one, and then of course you back-tracked. Nice. *sigh*... no poop Sherlock, see why I'm calling you out on that ridiculous claim? FF drafting isnt always about measuring who is the best player. Sometimes picks are made for value at a certain round or need at a certain position. First round...yeah. People are taking the best player possible. But you wont find too many drafts where Aaron Rodgers went #1 overall this year. So using your logic, I think you will find not everyone from your list was chosen ahead of matthews in ff drafts. AP, rice, MJD, McCoy, McFadden, Foster, Forte, Charles, Chris Johnson and Frank Gore all went ahead...more than likely. Fred jackson, Benson, Lynch, Bradshaw....did not. Okay, great. Just know that I can make the case that Ryan Mathews isn't even a top 16 RB in the NFL right now. They are a terrible division. You screamed for Kliquid to interject. He did. He said it was terrible. I dont always agree with him, but this is one I do. Ok...so you had a couple teams you played well against or a team like the Steelers just played bad. Whatever makes you happy. I'm not saying that every team in that division is the worst in the league....but they are pretty damn near the bottom. Look at the division winning Broncos...no Tebow and they are a 3 win team. Chiefs beat the Bears on a HAIL MARY! Its not like you went to Soldier Field and rocked them, dominated them or anything of the like. You got luck on a Hail Mary and a Bears team that sucked. And Tim Tebow? You make it sound like he is a bad player or something. That dude is freaking AWESOME! He IS the reason the Broncos are in the playoffs and actually finished at .500. He took advantage of a banged up Bears team....but he has won games for that team this season, considering how bad they are without him. If you are trying to assert that Al Davis's passing the week before the Raiders played the Texans had NO EFFECT on that game....you are intellectually- disabled. Plain and simple. Hue Jackson freaking weapt like a baby he was so overcome with emotion. It doesnt last forever. No one from the AFC East beat a team with a winning record? Best check your facts son.....Bills beat a 13 win Pats team. I havent looked it up....so there could be more. But thats just off the top of my head. LMAO!!!! Stewart/Williams was the best RB duo in the league. back in the 80s...Joe Montana was the best QB in the league. Back in the 60s Bart Starr was the best QB in the league. Who CARES?!?!?! How is that relevant?! In addition, I dont want to hear about RB Duo. Would you trade Matthews for Denagelo or Stewart? Please join the WFigs FF league next year...I need someone I can take advantage of in a trade. You cant make a case Matthews isnt a top 16 RB based off your stupid FF remark. You said it...not me. Matthews, in 90% of drafts, was drafted higher than 16th RB. Ohhhh...you are one of those internet guys that thinks every NFL expert doesnt know poop. So when does your draft big board come out? Kiper and McShay told me at the airport at 5am they cant wait. I don't know about that, but I'm definitely one of those "internet guys" who knows more than you. You're pretty much pretty proving it after every one of your lame replies. I can go in to detail but kilquid has pretty much stated as clear as anyone can, that the Chargers do not have elite And Steve Young too...dont forget that. You know more than me? Yeah ok. Lets have WFigs votes. Note the HEAVY sarcasm in that comment. You havent contributed anything but childish replies to everything. You are one of the trolls of WFigs that just likes to made snide remarks and contributes nothing to the conversation. Just go and delete yourself.
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Post by Greg Weinstein on Jan 5, 2012 19:45:57 GMT -5
No, I am not saying they are a solid division. I am saying that they aren't a ing terrible division like everyone says they are. Every division in the NFL has poop teams every year. What makes the AFC West so bad? Did half of the teams in the AFC West finish with under 4 wins or something? I don't get it... When is the last time an AFC West team even made it to the Super Bowl? It's an awful division man. The Broncos won it. The Chiefs won it last year. It's really, REALLY bad. 2002 season. Good teams have still come out of it in the last decade. It is not the worst, and I will stand by that. I am primarily talking about this season though - there is absolutely no way someone can sit there and call it the worst. I can almost make the case that it was better than the top-heavy AFC East this year.
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Post by Greg Weinstein on Jan 5, 2012 19:48:13 GMT -5
Me and him went around on this before. He ignores all logic and reason on the AFC West being bad. LOL, I'm still waiting to hear your "logic" and "reasoning"...
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Post by Greg Weinstein on Jan 5, 2012 19:50:41 GMT -5
You can tell its a sh*tty division when it's the norm for the Division Champ to be 8-8. When its not, its the Chargers who feast on the sh*ttiness of the other teams. The Giants finished 9-7. You had two 8-8 teams and very bad Redskins team who lost like 10 of its last 12. The Eagles went 5-1 in the division, and 3-7 outside of it. NFC East baby!
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Post by captain master talbot on Jan 5, 2012 21:04:45 GMT -5
You can tell its a sh*tty division when it's the norm for the Division Champ to be 8-8. When its not, its the Chargers who feast on the sh*ttiness of the other teams. The Giants finished 9-7. You had two 8-8 teams and very bad Redskins team who lost like 10 of its last 12. The Eagles went 5-1 in the division, and 3-7 outside of it. NFC East baby! And it's considered a down year. This is the norm for the AFC West.
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Post by Tim of thee on Jan 5, 2012 21:30:10 GMT -5
The Giants finished 9-7. You had two 8-8 teams and very bad Redskins team who lost like 10 of its last 12. The Eagles went 5-1 in the division, and 3-7 outside of it. NFC East baby! And it's considered a down year. This is the norm for the AFC West. this is the last 10 years of the AFC West winners 2002 Oakland Raiders 11–5–0 Lost Super Bowl XXXVII 2003 Kansas City Chiefs 13–3–0 Lost AFC Divisional Playoffs 2004 San Diego Chargers 12–4–0 Lost AFC Wild Card Playoffs 2005 Denver Broncos 13–3–0 Lost AFC Championship Game 2006 San Diego Chargers 14–2–0 Lost AFC Divisional Playoffs 2007 San Diego Chargers 11–5–0 Lost AFC Championship Game 2008 San Diego Chargers 8–8–0 Lost AFC Divisional Playoffs 2009 San Diego Chargers 13–3–0 Lost AFC Divisional Playoffs 2010 Kansas City Chiefs 10–6–0 Lost AFC Wild Card Playoffs 2011 Denver Broncos 8–8–0 In Progress 8-8 is hardly the norm for the division winner in the AFC west sure it's not as strong of a division as the AFC north this season and seasons past, but it's still highly competitive, just like the NFC east is at the moment.. I'd say the two divisions are pretty equal at the moment
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Post by Greg Weinstein on Jan 5, 2012 22:42:25 GMT -5
I like how you go from one end of the spectrum to the other. No, I am not saying they are a solid division. I am saying that they aren't a ing terrible division like everyone says they are. Every division in the NFL has poop teams every year. What makes the AFC West so bad? Did half of the teams in the AFC West finish with under 4 wins or something? I don't get it... I actually showed you the good teams they beat as well. I didn't even bother throwing in the better teams of the NFL that our division played tough against, such as GB 45 @ SD 38 SD 21 @ NYJ 27 PIT 13 @ KC 9 DET 28 @ OAK 27 OAK 35 @ BUF 38 (when BUF was playing well) It's not like the teams in our division are getting steamrolled every week. Yup, and you neglect to mention TIM TEBOW and TYLER PALKO were their respective teams' QBs when they BEAT the Chicago Bears. The Bears still had a very good defense. It wasn't a gift, LOL. It's one thing if they led 20-3 and lose 24-20 or something. That wasn't the case. By the way, the Bengals beat the Titans in their house a few months back. The Titans finished 9-7. As shocked as I am, you are wrong again. In case you haven't looked, the teams in this year's playoffs are pretty good. Yup, that win was because Al Davis died. Shame they couldn't make the playoffs when all they needed to do was beat my Chargers in the final week at home. You'd think Al Davis would've wanted that too. Oh and guess what, NOT ONE TEAM FROM THE AFC EAST BEAT A TEAM WITH A WINNING RECORD! Are they a poop division now? You literally said "there arent too many that have 3 skill positions like the Chargers do". The Panthers do. I'd take DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart over Mathews and Tolbert in a heartbeat. Don't even kid yourself. Just 3 years ago they were the best running duo in the NFL (maybe tied with the Giants, who had a three-headed monster that year). No, I didn't ignore it. The problem is, you can't use a cogent argument to support your claim of how you rank Mathews that high. You're the one AVOIDING that one, and then of course you back-tracked. Nice. *sigh*... no poop Sherlock, see why I'm calling you out on that ridiculous claim? Okay, great. Just know that I can make the case that Ryan Mathews isn't even a top 16 RB in the NFL right now. They are a terrible division. You screamed for Kliquid to interject. He did. He said it was terrible. I dont always agree with him, but this is one I do. Ok...so you had a couple teams you played well against or a team like the Steelers just played bad. Whatever makes you happy. I'm not saying that every team in that division is the worst in the league....but they are pretty damn near the bottom. Look at the division winning Broncos...no Tebow and they are a 3 win team. Chiefs beat the Bears on a HAIL MARY! Its not like you went to Soldier Field and rocked them, dominated them or anything of the like. You got luck on a Hail Mary and a Bears team that sucked. And Tim Tebow? You make it sound like he is a bad player or something. That dude is freaking AWESOME! He IS the reason the Broncos are in the playoffs and actually finished at .500. He took advantage of a banged up Bears team....but he has won games for that team this season, considering how bad they are without him. If you are trying to assert that Al Davis's passing the week before the Raiders played the Texans had NO EFFECT on that game....you are intellectually- disabled. Plain and simple. Hue Jackson freaking weapt like a baby he was so overcome with emotion. It doesnt last forever. No one from the AFC East beat a team with a winning record? Best check your facts son.....Bills beat a 13 win Pats team. I havent looked it up....so there could be more. But thats just off the top of my head. LMAO!!!! Stewart/Williams was the best RB duo in the league. back in the 80s...Joe Montana was the best QB in the league. Back in the 60s Bart Starr was the best QB in the league. Who CARES?!?!?! How is that relevant?! In addition, I dont want to hear about RB Duo. Would you trade Matthews for Denagelo or Stewart? Please join the WFigs FF league next year...I need someone I can take advantage of in a trade. You cant make a case Matthews isnt a top 16 RB based off your stupid FF remark. You said it...not me. Matthews, in 90% of drafts, was drafted higher than 16th RB. I don't know about that, but I'm definitely one of those "internet guys" who knows more than you. You're pretty much pretty proving it after every one of your lame replies. I can go in to detail but kilquid has pretty much stated as clear as anyone can, that the Chargers do not have elite I didn't scream for anyone to interject, you moron. I am giving FACTS. The AFC West was not TERRIBLE this year. Your only argument is "Oh, well they played a banged up this team, a bad that team, blah blah" - guess what? Every team in the AFC West was banged up this year. Every one of them. LOL, the Chiefs beat them on a Hail Mary? Ok, fine, a Hail Mary that came at halftime. They still won, and held the Bears to 3 points. Yup, you're right, the Bills beat the Pats in that fluky game. So the only win any team in the AFC East has against against a a team with a winning record came against a division opponent. Outside of that one victory, they sucked this year. The AFC West was better than the AFC East this year. I guess your division must really be terrible. I am pretty sure someone could make the case DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart are better than Mathews. I am not the one who brought FF in the first place, you did. I don't care if they would be drafted higher or lower, they're getting more production than Mathews in the running game. They both average 5.4 YPC, Mathews at 4.9 YPC. Let's face it, Williams and Stewart would've had A LOT more TDs and rushing yards if Cam Newton wasn't their quarterback. Cam has taken a lot of rushing TDs away from them, compared to what an otherwise non-rushing QB would've done in short yardage situations.
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Jamal
Main Eventer
Joined on: Nov 24, 2005 14:53:44 GMT -5
Posts: 4,877
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Post by Jamal on Jan 5, 2012 23:52:26 GMT -5
You're pretty much pretty proving it after every one of your lame replies. I can go in to detail but kilquid has pretty much stated as clear as anyone can, that the Chargers do not have elite And Steve Young too...dont forget that. You know more than me? Yeah ok. Lets have WFigs votes. Note the HEAVY sarcasm in that comment. You havent contributed anything but childish replies to everything. You are one of the trolls of WFigs that just likes to made snide remarks and contributes nothing to the conversation. Just go and delete yourself. Gotta love people who pick a random NFL analyst to back their claims... I'm pretty sure I could find an analyst with the opposite opinion if I watched ESPN long enough.
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Post by Kliquid on Jan 6, 2012 5:33:13 GMT -5
And it's considered a down year. This is the norm for the AFC West. this is the last 10 years of the AFC West winners 2002 Oakland Raiders 11–5–0 Lost Super Bowl XXXVII 2003 Kansas City Chiefs 13–3–0 Lost AFC Divisional Playoffs 2004 San Diego Chargers 12–4–0 Lost AFC Wild Card Playoffs 2005 Denver Broncos 13–3–0 Lost AFC Championship Game 2006 San Diego Chargers 14–2–0 Lost AFC Divisional Playoffs 2007 San Diego Chargers 11–5–0 Lost AFC Championship Game 2008 San Diego Chargers 8–8–0 Lost AFC Divisional Playoffs 2009 San Diego Chargers 13–3–0 Lost AFC Divisional Playoffs 2010 Kansas City Chiefs 10–6–0 Lost AFC Wild Card Playoffs 2011 Denver Broncos 8–8–0 In Progress 8-8 is hardly the norm for the division winner in the AFC west sure it's not as strong of a division as the AFC north this season and seasons past, but it's still highly competitive, just like the NFC east is at the moment.. I'd say the two divisions are pretty equal at the moment Three teams, in 10 years, made it to the AFC championship game. ONE in 10 years made it to a Super Bowl and lost. ing awful. I'm sorry. ing awful.
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Post by Kliquid on Jan 6, 2012 5:37:19 GMT -5
And Tim Tebow? You make it sound like he is a bad player or something. That dude is freaking AWESOME! He IS the reason the Broncos are in the playoffs and actually finished at .500. He took advantage of a banged up Bears team....but he has won games for that team this season, considering how bad they are without him. Jesus ing Christ.
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