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Post by Brad on Jan 4, 2012 14:10:42 GMT -5
Before I even start this topic, let me say that I know it may ruffle some feathers but it's not meant to start any fights.
I've been reading Flair's book these past two weeks. I just got to the part where he talks about how Savage drew money but he didn't ever believe he was a good worker because he couldn't get in the ring and go off the cuff.
He talks about how for the match with Steamboat at WM III which many fans and wrestlers alike, treat as the "be all, end all" of wrestling matches, with frankly I've never agreed with, by the way, that Savage wanted to plan every spot and practice the match.
It's not the first I've heard of this being the case with him. Taking that into consideration, I'd have to agree with Flair on this one. No doubt, Randy Savage goes down in the books as one of the biggest draws in the business and one of the best characters but maybe, just maybe he was never the amazing wrestler we often paint him as?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2012 14:43:04 GMT -5
I totally disagree with this and in fact I find Flair to be HIGHLY overrated. I know Bret Hart even trashed Flair a little bit in his book about how he's an overrated worker and seemed to call things on the fly in the ring that didn't always make sense.
I tend to agree. I don't want this to turn into any sort of argument either and I totally respect your view and opinion. That's one thing I love about the Classics Board. Leave all that fighting/bickering about whether or not Cody Rhodes is awesome without the mask or not to the WWE board guys.
Anyway, I think Savage gets ALL the praise he deserves. I think Flair was GOOD. However, I think guys like Randy Savage, Bret Hart and Mr. Perfect were GREAT.
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nibs92
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Post by nibs92 on Jan 4, 2012 14:56:22 GMT -5
I've heard a few stories about savage having every detail of his match laid out in advance as well.
To me though that doesn't take away anything. The guy constantly delivered in the ring. When i watch a match, i look to be entertained and get emotionally involved and Savage was one that could do both for me. The fact that he put the time and effort into putting on a top notch match, shows how much he loved his craft.
Two of the sources who put Savage down for his planning were Hogan and Flair and without having too much of a go at either (i'm a fan of Flair's work up to around 93!), they both have a tendency to exaggerate and generally talk out of their backsides, so i don't put much stock in their opinions.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2012 15:02:22 GMT -5
I think the reason why Savage got not good but GREAT matches out of Hogan & Warrior at Wrestlemania is because he planned everything out in advance. Had he not planned everything out those matches may have been disasters. I give Savage credit for thinking ahead instead of doing things on the fly in the middle of a match.
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Post by Brad on Jan 4, 2012 15:35:25 GMT -5
I think the reason why Savage got not good but GREAT matches out of Hogan & Warrior at Wrestlemania is because he planned everything out in advance. Had he not planned everything out those matches may have been disasters. I give Savage credit for thinking ahead instead of doing things on the fly in the middle of a match. That's something I never even thought of. Fair point. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2012 15:41:45 GMT -5
Honestly, my only problem with Flair was that he did the same spots over and over and over again. I know guys like Hogan, Bret, HBK and others have the same things said about them:
Hogan: Big Boot, Hulk Up, Legdrop
Bret: Russian Leg Sweep, Back Breaker, Atomic Drop, Flying Elbow, Sharpshooter
HBK: Forearm Smash, Kip Up, Flying Elbow Drop, Sweet Chin Music
However, later into his career I even remember the announcers almost making fun of Flair when he would do the spot where he was perched on the top rope and would get thrown off or the famous Flair flop. It just got to the point where it became a joke instead of him doing something...anything different. Then again, I've never been in the ring so maybe he's as great as most people believe. He does get endorsements from HBK & HHH as being the best ever and I'd say those are two pretty darn good endorsements.
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nibs92
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Post by nibs92 on Jan 4, 2012 15:49:16 GMT -5
Honestly, my only problem with Flair was that he did the same spots over and over and over again. I know guys like Hogan, Bret, HBK and others have the same things said about them: Hogan: Big Boot, Hulk Up, Legdrop Bret: Russian Leg Sweep, Back Breaker, Atomic Drop, Flying Elbow, Sharpshooter HBK: Forearm Smash, Kip Up, Flying Elbow Drop, Sweet Chin Music However, later into his career I even remember the announcers almost making fun of Flair when he would do the spot where he was perched on the top rope and would get thrown off or the famous Flair flop. It just got to the point where it became a joke instead of him doing something...anything different. Then again, I've never been in the ring so maybe he's as great as most people believe. He does get endorsements from HBK & HHH as being the best ever and I'd say those are two pretty darn good endorsements. i remember he actually pulled off a top rope move and got a thunderous applause for doing so! Actually quite a moment! just wish i could remember which match it was. |
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Post by Brad on Jan 4, 2012 16:04:56 GMT -5
Honestly, my only problem with Flair was that he did the same spots over and over and over again. I know guys like Hogan, Bret, HBK and others have the same things said about them: Hogan: Big Boot, Hulk Up, Legdrop Bret: Russian Leg Sweep, Back Breaker, Atomic Drop, Flying Elbow, Sharpshooter HBK: Forearm Smash, Kip Up, Flying Elbow Drop, Sweet Chin Music However, later into his career I even remember the announcers almost making fun of Flair when he would do the spot where he was perched on the top rope and would get thrown off or the famous Flair flop. It just got to the point where it became a joke instead of him doing something...anything different. Then again, I've never been in the ring so maybe he's as great as most people believe. He does get endorsements from HBK & HHH as being the best ever and I'd say those are two pretty darn good endorsements. I think everyone who's ever stepped in the ring is guilty of that. There's nothing new under the sun, ya know? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2012 16:07:05 GMT -5
I agree. Just got sick of announcers even acknowledging it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2012 16:35:00 GMT -5
yes indeed Savage was a meticulous planner and very OCD about his matches and of course Elizabeth.
Flair had to go to Sarasota to practice their WM8 match and I agree with Nibs...Flair often talks through his corn chute.he has made many claims that have been well.....erroneous.never working with Bischoff and Russo again no matter what is just one that springs to mind.
I also dont believe for one second Savage couldnt call something on the fly-to me that seems impossible given his expirience and talent.......heard Hogan and someone else say this before and I called nonsense on it then too.
this comes from someone who finds Savage a great worker but overrated.
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Daniel F'n Bryan
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Post by Daniel F'n Bryan on Jan 4, 2012 17:06:28 GMT -5
I disagree with Flair here as Macho was great on the mic and in the ring. And if he did want to practice and plan like that it was only to give the fans a perfect show. However I agree with you that Macho/Steamboat was overrated as all hell. That match just bores the hell out of me. It is a good match but its nowhere near the greatest of all time.
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Post by Brad on Jan 4, 2012 17:21:22 GMT -5
I disagree with Flair here as Macho was great on the mic and in the ring. And if he did want to practice and plan like that it was only to give the fans a perfect show. However I agree with you that Macho/Steamboat was overrated as all hell. That match just bores the hell out of me. It is a good match but its nowhere near the greatest of all time. I'm glad someone else finally said it. I've just never gotten the hype around this match. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's not a BAD match, I just didn't see it as a special one. I much prefer Flair/Steamboat from Chi-Town Rumble 89' and it's not because I'm a huge mark for either man, I just find it to be a much better match. |
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Post by jammer311 on Jan 4, 2012 17:25:49 GMT -5
I disagree with Flair here as Macho was great on the mic and in the ring. And if he did want to practice and plan like that it was only to give the fans a perfect show. However I agree with you that Macho/Steamboat was overrated as all hell. That match just bores the hell out of me. It is a good match but its nowhere near the greatest of all time. I'm glad someone else finally said it. I've just never gotten the hype around this match. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's not a BAD match, I just didn't see it as a special one. I much prefer Flair/Steamboat from Chi-Town Rumble 89' and it's not because I'm a huge mark for either man, I just find it to be a much better match. I always said the Savage/Steamboat WM 3 match was overrated. If you wanna see a good Savage/Steamboat match, find Best of the WWF Volume 9 and watch the match they had from August 1986 from Maple Leaf Gardens. Awesome match!! Way better than WM 3. Also, Flair vs. Steamboat from Chi-Town Rumble was always my favourite match between those 2. Much better than the Clash of the Champions and Wrestle War 89 matches that year. But as for Savage being 'overrated' I wouldn't say that. I would say his matches were very scripted in we knew his style and what was gonna happen and when. But the same can be said for every wrestler who ever wrestled in the WWE. Every wrestler there has a certain set of moves they do, and they have to get them in in their match. I think it all depends on if you like the guy or not. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2012 17:27:39 GMT -5
i remember he actually pulled off a top rope move and got a thunderous applause for doing so! Actually quite a moment! just wish i could remember which match it was. haha, I remember that. It was great. I think it was in his match against Carlito. |
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Post by marino13 on Jan 5, 2012 14:53:58 GMT -5
I don't care if Savage rehearsed it, planned it out, or practiced with GI Joes, He was truly one of the best ever. And like it was mentioned earlier, he brought out the best in many of his opponents. So I applaud him for making sure his matches were up to par.
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Post by K5 on Jan 5, 2012 15:19:16 GMT -5
i think that more reflects his faith in his own performance, not his performance itself. by this i mean it's well reported that he was essentially always a nervous wreck of a man, and that would be the reasoning for the planned spots - not the inability.
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Post by awesomeallamerican on Jan 5, 2012 23:08:59 GMT -5
Hearing that Savage was that meticulous in his planning makes me respect him even more. I'm very much like that in almost everything I do as well, so I can see where he was coming from.
He clearly cared a lot about putting on the best possible show, so I give him full marks if he wanted to walk through everything beforehand. This kind of just sounds like Flair, who was always a far inferior worker, being a little jealous.
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Post by cordless2016 on Jan 6, 2012 1:06:55 GMT -5
I find Triple H overrated in the ring but thats just my personal opinion.
Anywho, there has always been two styles of wrestling, calling it in the ring and pre-planning a match. IMO both styles are fine and neither take away from a match. Flair is a guy who put on some amazing matches when calling stuff in the ring, while Savage also put on some amazing matches while pre-planning them. Neither takes away from a match to me. As long as a match is good it doesn't matter to me how it went down.
Personally I enjoyed both guys in their primes, but if I had to pick one, I'd go w/ Savage for the fact that he was able to put on great matches w/ guys like Hogan and Warrior, which was nearly impossible(though I agree w/ a previous comment that it was most likely due to Savage pre-planning his matches w/ them as opposed to Flair calling it in the ring w/ them). Flair could be very hit or miss at times.
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Johnny Lawrence - Cobra Kai
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Post by Johnny Lawrence - Cobra Kai on Jan 7, 2012 22:21:29 GMT -5
Years ago I had the chance to chat with George "The Animal" Steele about working with Randy Savage, and he said the same thing -- that Savage would carry around detailed notebooks and plan out every match, and would work with his opponents beforehand to plan everything out.
But unlike Flair, Steele was actually very impressed by Savage's dedication and made it clear that Savage's concern for having great matches was part of the reason why he had so many. Steele said it wasn't that Savage couldn't call a match on the fly, it's that he chose not to... kind of like a student choosing not to take a big test without lots of studying.
Now whether Steele's opinion means more, less or the same as Flair or Hogan is up for debate. But I think he had a valid point. Flair isn't wrong either, it's just two different ways of working.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2012 7:04:13 GMT -5
ya see thats just it.
as I said above I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that someone of Savages talent was unable to call something on the fly.its just that he chose not to.
Honky remarked on his meticulous planning too.he said that plenty backstage thought that it was way overboard but he said he never interfered with him and he was happy to go along with it.
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