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Post by Kliquid on Feb 7, 2012 14:47:16 GMT -5
Again, Paul's numbers vs. Obama are as good as anyone's. With the party nomination, those numbers would only rise. Presuming the party supports him (it won't) and there's no credible 3rd party (which there would be). We keep going down this same path. Mitt Romney is not running as a third party candidate. It has ZERO chance of happening. The guy is either getting the nomination or he's going home, like he did in 2008. Same thing with Newt Gingrich. Neither Romney or Gingrich is going to win the election unless they win the Republican nomination (neither would Ron Paul). That's not an opinion, that's a fact. So why would they spend millions of dollars trying to screw over Ron Paul or Rick Santorum? I know you have this opinion that they would portray themselves as the "candidate that would've beaten Obama if they has the party's support," but that makes absolutely no sense. Why would the party welcome them back when they intentionally cost them the previous election? It makes no sense whatsoever. Had Ron Paul run as a third party candidate, there is no way the Republican party would even be doing as much as they have to help him (which admittedly has been very little). They'd be full-out attacking him for being the one to cost them the election. You keep saying that the Republican party is mad at Ron Paul for not giving up his delegates in '08 when it didn't even come close to mattering... Yet somehow they'd allow Romney or Gingrich to cost them an election and then welcome them back with open arms. You're making no sense, man. Also, you keep saying that the party "won't support him." The people who are being polled in those things are individuals -- they're the ones who make the decision on who they vote for. The party is going to promote whoever their candidate is. This has never changed.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Feb 7, 2012 15:53:53 GMT -5
You're right. The Republican Party would rally behind a guy who will not cooperate with them if elected and who has worked against them in the past and who refuses to play by their rules. They'll support that guy.
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Post by Greg Weinstein on Feb 7, 2012 16:20:33 GMT -5
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Post by Kliquid on Feb 7, 2012 16:42:59 GMT -5
You're right. The Republican Party would rally behind a guy who will not cooperate with them if elected and who has worked against them in the past and who refuses to play by their rules. They'll support that guy. Yeah, they'll support a guy who leaves the party and s them over intentionally. Yeah, you're right.
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Post by Kliquid on Feb 7, 2012 16:44:11 GMT -5
A Ron Paul WIN Possible Tonight in Minnesota?A wide spectrum of Republican strategists now say Paul's passionate and deeply devoted followers could swarm the caucuses, giving the Texas congressman his first win and potentially creating a seismic reshuffling of the GOP field.- Minneapolis Star Tribune
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Feb 7, 2012 17:29:44 GMT -5
A Ron Paul WIN Possible Tonight in Minnesota?A wide spectrum of Republican strategists now say Paul's passionate and deeply devoted followers could swarm the caucuses, giving the Texas congressman his first win and potentially creating a seismic reshuffling of the GOP field.- Minneapolis Star Tribune 2-1 odds says he doesn't win.
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Post by Kliquid on Feb 7, 2012 18:14:08 GMT -5
A Ron Paul WIN Possible Tonight in Minnesota?A wide spectrum of Republican strategists now say Paul's passionate and deeply devoted followers could swarm the caucuses, giving the Texas congressman his first win and potentially creating a seismic reshuffling of the GOP field.- Minneapolis Star Tribune 2-1 odds says he doesn't win. Doesn't win what? I'll take you up if you mean who wins the most delegates.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Feb 7, 2012 21:25:44 GMT -5
Early results have Santorum in the lead in Missouri and Minnesota. Would not have predicted that.
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Post by Kliquid on Feb 7, 2012 23:11:00 GMT -5
Missouri's thing tonight doesn't even matter. I don't understand why it's being reported. They have an entire other thing that DOES matter. It's weird. LoL...
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Post by Kliquid on Feb 7, 2012 23:25:38 GMT -5
How Ron Paul "won" my precinct despite taking 2nd in the Straw Poll
Tonight I was the Republican party's choice to convene (run) the caucus for my precinct, Precinct 12 in Cottage Grove, MN.
The media is reporting tonight's straw poll results as we speak and it appears to be a big night for Mr. Santorum. That's great for him, many congrats. However, let me explain how Ron Paul's organization will benefit us MORE than what the media results show tonight. A second place showing, which is what Paul had tonight, is good -- but what will come from the caucus process will be better.
Straw poll results from my precinct Mitt Romney - 10 Rick Santorum - 9 Ron Paul - 9 Newt Gingrich - 1 TOTAL - 29
To be quite honest with you, I only knew seven of the nine people who apparently supported Ron Paul. That means three randoms showed up and supported my man -- hooray!
Anyway, if the media was reporting the results from my precinct, they would say that Romney won, with Paul and Santorum tying for second and Gingrich getting smashed.
HOWEVER...
THE DELEGATE COUNT FROM MY PRECINCT
My precinct was allotted 10 delegates (representatives) at tonight's caucus. These are the people who will move forward in the process in Minnesota. They will further dwindle down the number of representatives at the BPOU level (in a similar process), which is Senate District 57 in my case.
In my precinct, SIX of the 10 delegates were Ron Paul supporters. Also one of the 'alternates' was a Ron Paul supporter. This means that despite him getting only about 31% of the straw poll, he got 60% of the thing that matters -- the delegates.
Not only that, but like I said, I didn't even know two of the Ron Paul supporters, so it's possible that one (or both) of them might have been delegates as well. I won't count them, but the point is at the BARE MINIMUM, Ron Paul won my precinct.
And this isn't just in my precinct. Results like this are coming in all across the state. In fact, one of the other people I talked to informed me that 100% of the delegates (8) in his precinct were Ron Paul supporters!
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Tonight we will show up in 2nd place. But as I've said numerous times, Ron Paul could very well end up with the highest number of delegates in Minnesota.
I am very inspired by what happened tonight and I am happy to say that my hard work -- at least in Cottage Grove -- paid off. I know for a fact that of the precincts in my city, Ron Paul was the runaway winner.
I did what I could and I am happy.
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Post by chillax on Feb 7, 2012 23:32:05 GMT -5
The problem is, I don't see any way the Republicans get Paul supporters' votes. Well, that makes total sense, because Ron Paul isn't even really a Republican in the first place. And Santorum wins today? This whole GOP race is just silly. But if I was from Minnesota I would be a little sad.
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Post by Kliquid on Feb 8, 2012 1:00:38 GMT -5
Ron Paul speaks to supporters in Minnesota, also speaks about why DELEGATES ARE WHAT MATTERS.Ma in man.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Feb 8, 2012 9:06:57 GMT -5
Kliq, you really need to stop drinking the Kool-aid. I love you man, but there is no way you can honestly think that Paul is going to beg, borrow and steal enough delegates from other candidates to even matter when the convention comes around.
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Post by Halloween King on Feb 8, 2012 11:04:16 GMT -5
Kliq, you really need to stop drinking the Kool-aid. I love you man, but there is no way you can honestly think that Paul is going to beg, borrow and steal enough delegates from other candidates to even matter when the convention comes around. The funny thing about you saying Koolaid is that above he posted a clip from some paper. In which it says Ron Paul FOLLOWERS. Followers is a word I use to describe a cult. And I have yet to see a cult end well. So let the man Follow ron paul, it wont end well but let him have his fun.
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Post by T R W on Feb 8, 2012 11:47:06 GMT -5
The thing is, Kliquid has been very realistic about Ron Paul this whole time. He has stated several times that he doesn't expect him to win, and doesn't believe he will. But you guys seem to think he should stop supporting his candidate while he is still in the race. Slim as the chances are, he hasn't dropped out yet. Why should he abandon his support for him just because he isn't winning, or may not win. What is he supposed to do? Do you want him to start supporting Romney now, because he looks like a better chance to win? EVERYONE in America should support the candidate that best represents their ideals. For some it's Romney, other's it's Santorum, Paul, or Obama or someone else. Supporting someone else just because they have a better chance to win is silly, detreimental to yourself, and a major reason why politics in America is so ed up. As long as he believes in Ron paul, and he is still in the race, then he should continue to support him. There is nothing wrong with that. The attitude that everyone should pick the winning team is sickening.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Feb 8, 2012 11:59:30 GMT -5
The thing with Paul is that his message doesn't resonate with the public. Sadly, Santorum's message is more popular with the public than Paul's is. I like what Paul says, but the fact that he's pretending to be a Republican in order to get votes and he refuses to play by the Republican's rules while he insists that he is one is a huge turn off. He's as big a hypocrite as every other candidate out there. Yet Kliq, Slappy and other fanboys put him on a pedestal as if he's the second coming of Christ. He's not. He's another hypocritical politician who will do whatever it takes to get power even if it means claiming to be a part of a party he's not.
As I said before, Santorum, right wing nutjob that he is, has a message that resonates more with the American people than Paul does. Yes, the three primaries he won were just beauty contests, but it still shows that there are people out there who support him.
Paul is floundering and dead in the water at this point. He is the only candidate who hasn't won a single primary, nor has he come close to winning any of them. Yet the fanboys keep saying over and over that it's not over for him yet because he'll steal enough delegates from other candidates to at least influence the nomination. It's the magical thinking that bugs me more than anything.
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Post by Tim of thee on Feb 8, 2012 12:53:43 GMT -5
The thing is, Kliquid has been very realistic about Ron Paul this whole time. He has stated several times that he doesn't expect him to win, and doesn't believe he will. But you guys seem to think he should stop supporting his candidate while he is still in the race. Slim as the chances are, he hasn't dropped out yet. Why should he abandon his support for him just because he isn't winning, or may not win. What is he supposed to do? Do you want him to start supporting Romney now, because he looks like a better chance to win? EVERYONE in America should support the candidate that best represents their ideals. For some it's Romney, other's it's Santorum, Paul, or Obama or someone else. Supporting someone else just because they have a better chance to win is silly, detreimental to yourself, and a major reason why politics in America is so ed up. As long as he believes in Ron paul, and he is still in the race, then he should continue to support him. There is nothing wrong with that. The attitude that everyone should pick the winning team is sickening. That's what I was saying last year, but people refused to understand that message. I'm not going to support a candidate that doesn't believe in what I believe in. What are we supposed to do, drop our pants and take it? Hardly. It's funny that Hulk keeps marginalizing Paul supporters and his message when it was his message that got the republicans over in 2010 with the huge Tea Party insurgence. Stop the spending, lower taxes, and a more simple and effective government. If thats what you support, than you are being truly conservative. You want to talk about pretending to be republican, then look at the other 3 candidates, who all support a bigger, more convoluted government system. If you keep alienating Paul's message and support, you will end up with another 4 years of Obama, which is exactly what you don't want. Choosing someone like Romney or Santorum would only drive those very same supporters to vote third party. Once Paul is out of the race, I bet we see whoever the candidate is start campaigning for those votes. In general elections, it's all about the independents and if you don't get them, then you will lose.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Feb 8, 2012 14:17:22 GMT -5
Paul's message isn't resonating. The primaries have shown that pretty clearly. Everyone has won a primary except for Paul. Even Santorum who is basically broke and a complete nutjob has won primaries. People aren't buying Paul's message.
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Post by Kliquid on Feb 8, 2012 14:52:35 GMT -5
Kliq, you really need to stop drinking the Kool-aid. I love you man, but there is no way you can honestly think that Paul is going to beg, borrow and steal enough delegates from other candidates to even matter when the convention comes around. Brokered convention, my friend. Santorum doing well last night only helps the chances that this is going to be a fight to the end... And Ron Paul is in it for the long haul. For the 9058093456th time... Do I think he's going to win? No. But that's not going to stop me from trying because I'm not voting for who I think is going to win -- I'm voting for who I want to win. If I'm voting for who I think is going to win, I'm putting my life savings on an Obama re-election. The funny thing about you saying Koolaid is that above he posted a clip from some paper. In which it says Ron Paul FOLLOWERS. Followers is a word I use to describe a cult. And I have yet to see a cult end well. So let the man Follow ron paul, it wont end well but let him have his fun. YEAH, A CULT OF CRAZY PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO GO TO WAR FOR NO REASON OR EXPAND THE SIZE OF GOVERNMENT!!!! TERRIFYING!! The thing is, Kliquid has been very realistic about Ron Paul this whole time. He has stated several times that he doesn't expect him to win, and doesn't believe he will. But you guys seem to think he should stop supporting his candidate while he is still in the race. Slim as the chances are, he hasn't dropped out yet. Why should he abandon his support for him just because he isn't winning, or may not win. What is he supposed to do? Do you want him to start supporting Romney now, because he looks like a better chance to win? EVERYONE in America should support the candidate that best represents their ideals. For some it's Romney, other's it's Santorum, Paul, or Obama or someone else. Supporting someone else just because they have a better chance to win is silly, detreimental to yourself, and a major reason why politics in America is so ed up. As long as he believes in Ron paul, and he is still in the race, then he should continue to support him. There is nothing wrong with that. The attitude that everyone should pick the winning team is sickening. Exactly, never once have I said that I think Ron Paul is going to win the nomination. Never. But I support the person who I THINK should be the nominee. The thing with Paul is that his message doesn't resonate with the public. Sadly, Santorum's message is more popular with the public than Paul's is. I like what Paul says, but the fact that he's pretending to be a Republican in order to get votes and he refuses to play by the Republican's rules while he insists that he is one is a huge turn off. He's as big a hypocrite as every other candidate out there. Yet Kliq, Slappy and other fanboys put him on a pedestal as if he's the second coming of Christ. He's not. He's another hypocritical politician who will do whatever it takes to get power even if it means claiming to be a part of a party he's not. I firmly believe that Ron Paul's message DOES resonate with people. The problem is that people like you continue to create this perception that he "can't win." #HONESTMISTAKE If the media was actually supporting this guy, he would be kicking ass. But when they constantly shove it down everyone's throat that he can't win, of course they're not going to support him. They want Obama gone. As I said before, Santorum, right wing nutjob that he is, has a message that resonates more with the American people than Paul does. Yes, the three primaries he won were just beauty contests, but it still shows that there are people out there who support him. Like I said, Santorum had a great night. He was and should be noted as the biggest "winner" from last night given that he crushed Colorado and Missouri (although Missouri's thing literally doesn't matter at all). He won the straw poll in Minnesota, but he will not win the highest number of delegates from this state unless Ron Paul drops out... Which isn't happening. Paul is floundering and dead in the water at this point. He is the only candidate who hasn't won a single primary, nor has he come close to winning any of them. Yet the fanboys keep saying over and over that it's not over for him yet because he'll steal enough delegates from other candidates to at least influence the nomination. It's the magical thinking that bugs me more than anything. Would you like to place a wager on who wins the highest number of delegates from Minnesota? If you're so confident that Paul didn't win here, then give me some odds on it. Want to stick with the 2/1 you came up with before? I'll take that. Name your number. I've got it on very good word that Paul has pulled in around 50% of the precinct-level delegates in this state. That number will continue to the end. We're not going anywhere. Ron Paul will win Minnesota in what matters -- the delegates. And I believe that will happen in Iowa, too.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Feb 8, 2012 16:23:49 GMT -5
If Paul's message is resonating so well, then why in the world has he not come close to winning a single primary? Reason? People aren't voting for him. His entire electoral strategy depends on him swiping delegates that voters have already determined should go to someone else. That doesn't strike you as just a wee bit underhanded? I know the other candidates all do the same thing, but none of them rely on that as their only chance to even make a difference.
I use Santorum as an example because he's similar to Paul in a lot of ways. He doesn't have a lot of money (probably less than Paul), the media doesn't support him in any way. He's frequently disparaged for his nutjob beliefs. He has no chance at all of winning the nomination. None. Yet his message still hits home with enough of the population that he wins primaries. Paul's doesn't. If Paul's message truly resonates with people, then why is he resorting to taking delegates from candidates the people voted for? Why do people not go out and vote for him?
The media covers Romney and Gingrich. Both of them have deep pockets and tons of connections. I get why they win primaries. Santorum has none of those things yet people still go out and vote for him. Paul doesn't have either of those things either, but no one votes for him.
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