luchafan1
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Joined on: Jan 8, 2008 16:48:04 GMT -5
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Post by luchafan1 on Apr 4, 2012 6:29:57 GMT -5
i been thinking about this lately and wonder how you guys agree or disagree on this matter, so here i go....
for many years one of the biggest complaints we hear over and over and over again is how the bussenis these days is "doomed" because of the lack of terretories like in the old days and wrestlers not being able to gain experiance thus coming in with basic skills and bland.
now, i appreciate that statement and i somewhat agree that having international experiance is great, and it certainly adds another dimension to the wrestlers and make for good bragging rights.
But then it got me thinking about all the wrestlers WITHOUT all that experiance behind them and still managed to get to the top spots and becoming the faces of the mainstream wrestling world, guys like batista,cena,orton....they were/are all legitimate mega stars and it's not as if they are internationally skilled talents right...at best the only thing they did was spend time in the likes of ovw or fcw, which is still wwe property.
infact the guys that did have experiance outside wwe the likes of jericho,benoit,eddie...never really reached "THE" spot or were looked at as the face of the company,not even when they had the top belts imo.
even in these days, with the likes of punk and daniel brian, who are pretty much the best thing you can get these days as far as "internationally trained" guys, are again in the benoit/eddie spots, that being the glue that holds the product togheter but not the nr 1 guy people think about when mentioning wwe.
look at brock even, back when he first came in all he did was spent time in ovw, it's not as if he came in with 10 years of japanese/european experiance under his belt and look how fast he rose to the top. now he's back and we're all jumping with joy again even tho he hasn't wrestled in years.
i'm just saying, sometimes i get the feeling that the demise of terretories and the doom scenario purists like to point out is overrated cause it's been shown time and time again that wwe can create en exciting product with legitimate mega stars that have never wrestled a day in japan/mexico prior to coming in.
what are your thoughts ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2012 8:18:29 GMT -5
The concept and formula of the Territories was a solid one, however better suited for its time frame:
1. It allowed different character genres to excel in the most logical environment (for example, Dick Murdoch would always be over in the South as face or heel, while the NY crowd would be more endeared to Bruno Sammartino) This would allow each Region to trade stars and have the "outsider" come in for a run and face their champion or wrestlers, offer a different challenge and new feud potential.
2. It kept things fresh and allowed opportunity for financial growth and development of experience. New wrestlers learned from veterans from different regions, how to work different styles and work different crowds. Wrestlers had the ability to control their destiny a bit more, rather than having only one company in the business to work with.
3. There were several key bookers that paved the way for the future success of the business. Multiple styles and strong points with each booker, combined to create one giant sport.
4. There was a sense of loyalty that existed between wrestlers..that same loyalty that grew with now veterans HHH, HBK, Taker, Flair etc. Granted, there was quite a bit of shadiness and debauchery, but the various territories looked out for each other for a greater good of the sport itself.
That was during a time when "Professional Wrestling" was the name on the marquee. Today, the business is "Sports Entertainment" and it has become a globally marketed phenomenon.
Today, with one dominant force, everything has changed. I mean this with no disrespect when I say that while I respect TNA / Impact for making the attempt to be different, to revitalize the old school, "wrestling" aspect of the business, they fallen short. In all honestly, they had no chance of making a dent in the WWE business model, as they simply do not have the resources that the
WWE Marketing Juggernaut does. The concept was amazing...but times have changed.
Today, PPV and merchandise is the top focus and weekly programming exists to drive the PPV and merch sales. Character development is secondary. In the Territory Days, character development and storytelling was more organized and held in much higher regard. TV deals were smaller and treasured, and every second was valuable for different reasons.
The Territory System today exists to some degree via Farm Leagues, yet 99% are all under WWE control, stifling the creativity. It's like a plant that fattens up chickens to be sent to the slaughterhouse, where the talent either makes the grade, or winds up rejected becoming dog food or scrapple elsewhere.
The NWA was amazing. People do not realize that being that Champion meant traveling to a different area/region and putting over that Territories' top guy. Ric Flair was amazing not because he was won the title 16 times..but because he could have a match with a mop and make it look great, as he did traveling through territories in and outside of the NWA.
Today, the "superstars" are brought uo too quickly, win titles too early on and thus flounder as there is no other venue to go and cool off or develop new skills with a different audience. The fact that WWE is the only game in town and is global eliminates the chance to grow or appeal to a different audience. Everyday, you read about WWE opening new offices in India, China, England etc. Today, it is all one world audience. Imagine if Sheamus, Jack Swagger, Dolph, Cody etc etc had other places to go after leaving the Main Event scene to grow while newer stars were built. Today, there is no other place to go. You are either on WWE TV or you cease to exist.
To answer your question, the Territory System and Business model is not overrated...it has sadly become obsolete due to the change and the monopolization of the business.
Even if I hit the lottery and won the 600 Million, I still would not have enough money to realistically buy the hype, exposure and structure that WWE has created. While I enjoy seeing Cody, Punk, Dolph and other WWE Stars weekly, I grew up watching the NWA and WWF, where wrestlers came and went and there was always competition to keep things fresh and exciting.
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Post by Bandalero on Apr 4, 2012 8:29:16 GMT -5
excellent post juliankaye, I agree 100%
Another beautfiul thing with the territories was that it forced wrestlers to entertain the same folks week in and week out - that meant that they had to be more creative in their match designs and repitoires/promos to get those same fans to buy tickets to come back the next week. They didn't have a creative team behind them, the majority of the time it was literally up to them or they were out of the territory and out of work.
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Post by punksnotdead on Apr 4, 2012 8:44:36 GMT -5
The only guy who has gotten to the top of WWE in the last 6 or so years is as close to a territory guy as it gets in 2012. Additionally, there is a reason WWE signs guys like Bryan, Hero, Claudio, Ambrose, and Rollins, because they are polished, have been in front of large crowds, and have the experience to cut promos and call matches because they had been doing it years before they signed with WWE.
Bottom line, you don't get better working in front of the same crowds, people and trainers, over and over again. Guys like Bryan, who have worked all around the world, get a multidimensional training experience from the different styles of wrestling, and THAT is why he is so good.
I'm not going to say pure WWE talent can't get over. Dolph Ziggler is pretty much proof that you don't need the Indies to be an amazing in-ring performer, but I think it definitely helps. The problem though, is that you can't teach charisma, confidence, and the ability to connect with the fans. So whether it be homegrown WWE talent, or worldly traveled Indy talent, you can't make new stars without the ever elusive "it factor" imo.
Guys like Mark Henry, even Brodus Clay, would really benefit from a territory system imo, assuming it was setup like it was pre 90's. In other words, Henry could come in and be a monster heel, work his program, and then go somewhere else and do the same schtick. That way he wouldn't be over exposed. Obviously, that would never happen in 2012 because there is only WWE and WWE over exposes the hell out of it's stars (see John Cena).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2012 12:37:20 GMT -5
Thanks Bandalero.. I was hoping not to bore everyone with my views on the Old School  How awesome would it be to have a place for the guys who come out on the losing end of the stick of the Program A to go, before re-entering a new feud or making a comeback with the same players without having to be repackaged or stuck at the bottom of the card? For example, it would be like an alternate universe where The Joker moves on to Metropolis to fight with Superman after losing a battle with Batman. This gives Batman time to fight with a new villain, while keeping The Joker on point, in a new city, against a new hero. Now compare it to wrestling, and take Jack Swagger as an example. He was a World Champion at one point and what has he really accomplished since, other than floundering? While his time as a Heavyweight Champion may not be considered successful, the existence of different Territories could have allowed him to enter a feud with someone completely different like Terry Funk. Imagine Swagger coming into the Texas Market and cutting a promo about being a REAL All American, American that was an educated, perfect physical specimen with REAL wrestling accolades and credentials. Out comes Terry Funk, the Veteran, who tells Jack that while he may not be as muscular or pretty or have his accomplishments, but he comes from a long line of old school wrestlers. This feud erupts into a battle of young v. old, new school v. old school, style v style, that allows Swagger to really home his craft learning from a Ring General like Funk. It gets Funk over in his home state, while making Swagger a monster heel, who is actually involved in a high-visibility feud, actually learning on the job. Would this not be better than having him come to the ring with Chavo as his mascot as a means to build heat? Or engaging in a worthless series of matches on Superstars that seem him winning or losing with no consequence? After 6 months in a territory with someone of a completely different spectrum and caliber like Funk, he could actually come back and be considered credible again, rather than just a rushed, failed attempt at being a transitional champion. Zack Ryder could go from being the pitiful schmuck up north, to the arrogant, pretty boy in the mid-west and then comeback as a more polished version of either character. Imagine Punk defending the World Title like Flair did back in the day, but only as a Rebel that spoke for the voiceless in every venue? If the WWE were smart, they would recreate the territory formula and set up each Federation as its own profit center, all wholly owned subsidiaries of the WWE. This would allow the stars to grow, mature, properly develop and even take a break when needed rather than burning out. With Satellite and Cable technology, the average wrestling fan could tune in to see any local territory on one of 100o channels anyway, while expanding the opportunities of the live markets. PPV's would be a collaboration of the different territories that WWE owns anyway..imagine Wrestlemania but with 4 different regional champions and one big main, heavyweight champ. It would allow more stars to be elevated without detracting from the stature of each championship belt. I could go on and on for hours... LOL |
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REAL REVY
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Post by REAL REVY on Apr 4, 2012 12:38:48 GMT -5
I don't know, I don't think a terrorist gimmick would work very well post-9/11. We'll have to see though.
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luchafan1
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Joined on: Jan 8, 2008 16:48:04 GMT -5
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Post by luchafan1 on Apr 5, 2012 6:24:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the input guys, it's certainly endless food for thought. obviously i already knew all the positives of the terretorial era so i hope i didn't come across as some casual wwe-only fan in my first post, because that's as far from the truth as can be,however i have to admit that wwe is still my favorite promotion to watch and the only one that gets me really emotionally invested i'd say which is the reason i started thinking about this more. Usually it's only when a wrestlers appears in wwe and they work their magic on him that i really become a fan, no matter how much good the talent may have been pre wwe, i just can't seem to really get into them untill they become big. Case in point Cm punk, sure i liked his ROH career, i definatly saw potential there, but i only ever got lukewarm for his matches. Now he's in wwe and i'm a big fan of his because he has become a great storyteller and he's diffrent in a way, which is funny because techniclly he hasn't changed much, he's still cm punk as he always was even pre-wwe yet him being in the E instantly makes him a lot more appealing. And then i thought about all my favorites who basicly went straight from the gym to wwe tv and won me over and it's all because of the magic touch wwe still has that no other company will ever have. i check independent wrestling and foreign wrestling all the time, and love to follow online debates to see who is pegged the next breakout star and then i try to watch a lot of his or her work so far and it's intresting yet i can almost never say i REALLY care about them untill they are intresting cogs in the wwe machine. so that was basicly the reason i started thinking that i probably don't care as much for terretorial backgrounds as some fans seem to. back in the old days i loved to check out some nwa and awa but even then,talent never really won me over untill they reached either wcw or wwf and they became bigger personalities, and now it's the same with all the independent promotions, i love to watch the odd ROH or other leagues but i just can't seem to get really into it. When a guy like orton or batista or cena comes walking in wwe i immediatly care more about them and think it's more intresting to see where they go, then i care about almost every indy talent i have probably been following much longer then the new wwe face. i dunno i just...as much as i hate to admit it since it portrays me as a wwe sheep, i guess in some ways i am cause they're the only company that can really make me care about their wrestlers in an emotional way, now when i look at punk, i don't think about ring of honor anymore when i see him, he's cm punk from the wwe to me now, a legitimate star instead of a glorified dime a dozen indy talent like i used to view him.  i guess another good way to compare is when wwe talent leaves, do you still care to see what hey're doing in the indys ? i know wgtt are in roh and i was always a fan of them, so i went to check out some of their roh work on youtube and it only got me lukewarm, i still liked them and i'm glad they are having fun again yet it's just not the same and i doubt i'll watch all their roh work cause i can't be arsed, yet i know for sure if they made a wwe retun, or even just shelton alone, i'd mark out again lol i love pure wrestling talent but at the same token i'm the type who wants the sizzle with the steak, and bigger is better in a lot ways still. |
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jakksking1
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Post by jakksking1 on Apr 5, 2012 9:09:55 GMT -5
As others have said, the territory system was a very good check on overexposure of the wrestler. It definitely wouldn't work today. Wrestling has become big business now. Instead of building a feud for a few months, we've got quick 3 week feud building schemes so fans will by one of the PPVs this month. It definitely allowed for better characters to be developed, at least more unique characters at a minimum.
In my opinion, it allowed for far more experimentation. If the crazy gimmick failed, the wrestler would just go to another territory, start fresh with a new gimmick. That is much tougher to do today, as there are not many other water holes besides WWE.
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Post by kenlarchtin on Apr 5, 2012 10:25:54 GMT -5
They just need the wrestlers to create their own characters and not micro manage with a creative team.
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rossfan
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Post by rossfan on Apr 8, 2012 20:39:01 GMT -5
cena, orton, batista, rock, angle, lesnar
none of those guys worked territories and all were huge stars
wwes inability to create stars these days has to do with creative been awful at times and the top guys like undertaker, hhh etc not wanting to relinquish their spots, look at flair back in the 80s, the amount of stars he made by himself, now look at hhh, he destroyed his own buddy sheamus to make himself look good
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Post by Calcifer Boheme on Apr 8, 2012 21:23:00 GMT -5
While the experience issue is a big one, independent companies are filling that niche pretty well.
My bigger issue is that guys have nowhere to go to stay fresh.
We don't even need territories for that, just other big companies that people follow. That way guys can move between companies and have new people to feud with. Obviously, some people wouldn't change companies, but not everyone needs to. As long as guys are coming in and out, they can also keep the guys who stay put from getting stale.
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cocacolabottle
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Post by cocacolabottle on Apr 8, 2012 22:16:11 GMT -5
Territories would not work today. Kayfabe is dead.
The WCW was able to get around this during the Eric Bischoff years with the Power Plant. The WWE found it incredibly effective to be able to recruit and hand train their own talent that they copied the idea.
The purpose that territories used to serve no longer exists.
Mass communication further degrades the need for territories to exist.
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