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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 18:05:00 GMT -5
ok so I locked the WM13 thread because we were all talking about HBK and the year in 1996.
I do feel that HBK had a tough time on top in 96(doesnt excuse his childish behaviour)and I understand the school of thought that Hart had it tougher in 92/93 too.....and both men had to deal with Vinnie under pressure too.although I feel WCWs surge really had Vince on the ropes,something he had never felt before.
when Hall & Nash left I think they left a WAY bigger hole than Vince anticipated.....and then of course WCW took off with a bang while Vinnies show looked like old hat to most(though not all).......and while HBK did work his ass off for sure his nonsense during the Vader program was inexusable to me.his ego trip at IYH:International Incident killed the main Event of Summerslam 96 stone effin dead.
so lets discuss.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 18:09:32 GMT -5
I agree with the old hat comment, i mean even going into early 1997 the set up just wasnt working for the time, especially Raws format going throughout 1996, some good moments like the Austin-Hart feud, but everything else was behind the times
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Post by Bartman on Nov 17, 2012 18:15:48 GMT -5
To be fair, I don't think it's that Hall/Nash left a big hole in the WWF when they left, I think it's more so just how much of an impact they actually had on WCW.
As for the whole HBK/Hart situation, I said what I said in the other thread. So you can check that out if you want.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 18:22:31 GMT -5
To be fair, I don't think it's that Hall/Nash left a big hole in the WWF when they left, I think it's more so just how much of an impact they actually had on WCW. of course your right their impact was huge in Atlanta but I still say they left a larger hole than Vince thought they would.I genuinely believe he underestimated how over they were.I mean he thought Fake Diesel & Razor were gonna get over.......meaning he wanted the characters back.Cornettes thoughts on that(being a member of creative at the time) are priceless on this now I know he wouldnt have been able to keep either with the $$$ Turner was throwing around. |
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Post by y2yay on Nov 17, 2012 18:32:58 GMT -5
From a business standpoint, it was at an all-time low. I'm talking about the supporting cast. Your statement was Shawn was "trying to keep the company going practically single handed", which isn't true, at all. Like I listed previously, Shawn had a much stronger supporting cast to work with in 1996, than Bret Hart had in 1993. Once Hogan left, even though they tried to push Luger to the moon, Bret was still their biggest star. Shawn and Bret were in different positions. In 1993, they suffered from lack of star power, especially after Hogan left, considering he was their top guy for like 9 years. Where as, in 1996, they suffered from getting their ass handed to them by WCW who was on fire at the time. Saying Shawn was pretty much only thing keeping WWF afloat in 1996 is absurd. Shawn had a better supporting cast, but he was the only major player. Bret in 1993 had other guys who could (or at least could try) to be the No.1 guy in the company. Luger, Diesel, HBK. Shawn had a bunch of very talented guys, but people who weren't going to be the top star at that time. Vader, Mankind, Bulldog, Owen, Austin (wasn't ready at the time), Taker (was never the man). That's why I think Shawn's job was tougher. If Bret failed or Vince didn't feel he was right for the job, he had Luger to fill in or Diesel (and they both did). In 1996 it was all on Shawn. WWF was in a bad state in 1996. I dread to think where they would have been without neither Bret or HBK. |
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Post by Bartman on Nov 17, 2012 18:39:47 GMT -5
From a business standpoint, it was at an all-time low. I'm talking about the supporting cast. Your statement was Shawn was "trying to keep the company going practically single handed", which isn't true, at all. Like I listed previously, Shawn had a much stronger supporting cast to work with in 1996, than Bret Hart had in 1993. Once Hogan left, even though they tried to push Luger to the moon, Bret was still their biggest star. Shawn and Bret were in different positions. In 1993, they suffered from lack of star power, especially after Hogan left, considering he was their top guy for like 9 years. Where as, in 1996, they suffered from getting their ass handed to them by WCW who was on fire at the time. Saying Shawn was pretty much only thing keeping WWF afloat in 1996 is absurd. Shawn had a better supporting cast, but he was the only major player. Bret in 1993 had other guys who could (or at least could try) to be the No.1 guy in the company. Luger, Diesel, HBK. Shawn had a bunch of very talented guys, but people who weren't going to be the top star at that time. Vader, Mankind, Bulldog, Owen, Austin (wasn't ready at the time), Taker (was never the man). That's why I think Shawn's job was tougher. If Bret failed or Vince didn't feel he was right for the job, he had Luger to fill in or Diesel (and they both did). In 1996 it was all on Shawn. WWF was in a bad state in 1996. I dread to think where they would have been without neither Bret or HBK. That doesn't make sense though. You say Austin wasn't ready at the time in 1996, yet you list Diesel and Shawn has possibilities as the number one guy in 1993? |
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Post by y2yay on Nov 17, 2012 18:43:24 GMT -5
Shawn had a better supporting cast, but he was the only major player. Bret in 1993 had other guys who could (or at least could try) to be the No.1 guy in the company. Luger, Diesel, HBK. Shawn had a bunch of very talented guys, but people who weren't going to be the top star at that time. Vader, Mankind, Bulldog, Owen, Austin (wasn't ready at the time), Taker (was never the man). That's why I think Shawn's job was tougher. If Bret failed or Vince didn't feel he was right for the job, he had Luger to fill in or Diesel (and they both did). In 1996 it was all on Shawn. WWF was in a bad state in 1996. I dread to think where they would have been without neither Bret or HBK. That doesn't make sense though. You say Austin wasn't ready at the time in 1996, yet you list Diesel and Shawn has possibilities as the number one guy in 1993? HBK and Diesel didn't evolve that much from 1993-1996. It took a complete character change for Austin to become a star. Steve Austin would not have been anywhere near as successful without morphing into Stone Cold. |
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Post by Bartman on Nov 17, 2012 19:00:46 GMT -5
That doesn't make sense though. You say Austin wasn't ready at the time in 1996, yet you list Diesel and Shawn has possibilities as the number one guy in 1993? HBK and Diesel didn't evolve that much from 1993-1996. It took a complete character change for Austin to become a star. Steve Austin would not have been anywhere near as successful without morphing into Stone Cold. But he did begin morphing into Stone Cold in 1996. Hindsight is 20/20. Fact is, Diesel was still HBK's lackey in 1993, and HBK wasn't above the IC title yet. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2012 2:40:39 GMT -5
1996 was weird.
They tried going serious with stuff like Stone Cold and Mankind but I just couldn't get into HBK in the 90s. I didn't get it. The dude just pranced around and had hissy fits all the time.
1996 was kind of the preview of what would be an amazing 1997.
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Post by Maybe! Maybe! Maybe! on Nov 18, 2012 5:11:51 GMT -5
I really couldn't care less about how HBK was acting at the time, he still gave us that match with Mankind at IYH: Mind Games. Seriously one of the best matches of all time. I'll agree that he's an egomaniac, but he put on some clinics during this period.
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Post by cordless2016 on Nov 18, 2012 10:34:16 GMT -5
Bret had it far tougher in 1992-93. Because of the drug scandal, Vince was forced to cut Warrior and Bulldog, Hogan was off doing movies, and Savage was transitioning into the commentary role. Shawn was still a mear mid-carder, and Luger was no where near as over as Vince would have us believe in 1993 (Bret was more over, and he didn't even have the Pro-American gimmick like Luger). Owen also didn't even come close to getting his big push until Survivor Series 1993. Taker was also stuck in that stupid Giant Gonzalez feud, and Vince was not going to do a face vs face feud back then. Bret basically had Yoko to work with, which wasn't much.
While Shawn had to go up against the nWo angle, he got to work w/ Bret (before and after Bret's hiatus), Diesel, Bulldog, Owen, Vader, Sid, Mankind, and Taker was also there as a big face with him. Shawn had a much better supporting cast to work with, and he still screwed it up with his tantrums and b****ing. Shawn simply wasn't getting over with the fans like Vince wanted (Bret drew the best ratings for the WWF that year in January and February, and then had the highest rated Raw that year with his return in the Fall).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2012 11:28:14 GMT -5
again all good points.
many have said that the reason Vince put Yoko on top and left him there was because of the lack of credible heels.he had many faces for Yoko to oppose but not so many heels for Bret/Luger to square off with.
and no Luger wasnt near as over as Vince told everyone(just like HBK in 96)they had to pipe in crowd noise for him....never a good sign really.
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Post by cordless2016 on Nov 18, 2012 13:28:30 GMT -5
again all good points. many have said that the reason Vince put Yoko on top and left him there was because of the lack of credible heels.he had many faces for Yoko to oppose but not so many heels for Bret/Luger to square off with. and no Luger wasnt near as over as Vince told everyone(just like HBK in 96)they had to pipe in crowd noise for him....never a good sign really. Yeah the WWF was seriously lacking heels in 1993. I loved Yoko but unless he was in the ring w/ Bret, his matches wern't really that interesting to me. But yeah, had Bret held onto the title, there would have been no credible top heels for him to face after Yoko. I always thought it would have been interesting for Savage to turn heel again and to feud with Bret over the title, but for some weird reason Vince just wanted Savage doing commentary when he had alot of great years left in him. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2012 16:37:21 GMT -5
again all good points. many have said that the reason Vince put Yoko on top and left him there was because of the lack of credible heels.he had many faces for Yoko to oppose but not so many heels for Bret/Luger to square off with. and no Luger wasnt near as over as Vince told everyone(just like HBK in 96)they had to pipe in crowd noise for him....never a good sign really. Yeah the WWF was seriously lacking heels in 1993. I loved Yoko but unless he was in the ring w/ Bret, his matches wern't really that interesting to me. But yeah, had Bret held onto the title, there would have been no credible top heels for him to face after Yoko. I always thought it would have been interesting for Savage to turn heel again and to feud with Bret over the title, but for some weird reason Vince just wanted Savage doing commentary when he had alot of great years left in him. yes indeed Savage still had plenty left in the tank but Vince was just determined to phase him out.heel Savage vs Bret over the title would have been great stuff...... |
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Post by koreygunz on Nov 18, 2012 16:48:36 GMT -5
Yeah the WWF was seriously lacking heels in 1993. I loved Yoko but unless he was in the ring w/ Bret, his matches wern't really that interesting to me. But yeah, had Bret held onto the title, there would have been no credible top heels for him to face after Yoko. I always thought it would have been interesting for Savage to turn heel again and to feud with Bret over the title, but for some weird reason Vince just wanted Savage doing commentary when he had alot of great years left in him. yes indeed Savage still had plenty left in the tank but Vince was just determined to phase him out.heel Savage vs Bret over the title would have been great stuff...... It still bothers me that Macho Man was penciled in as the winner of the 93 Rumble reportedly up to the DAY OF until Vince changed his mind and had Yoko win. Savage vs Bret at Mania9, even as a face vs face, would have been awesome. Getting back to the topic, 1996 was a weird year. There were some great moments and matches filtered in with some obvious transition periods. I agree that HBK had little to work with in the way of major heels, but some of that was his own fault. Had he allowed Vader to go over as planned, for example, I think they could have had a solid feud heading into 97. Bulldog, Owen, Austin, Mankind, Goldust, etc were all solid heels, but at the time I dont think most people bought into them as main event heels. As for Hall and Nash, I agree that they left a bigger hole in the company at the time than anticipated. Diesel and Razor were too hugely over characters in the WWF at the time. Diesel would have been a solid main event heel for the remainder of 96, and Hall was always over. I know he had been somewhat fazed out at the time of his departure due to alcohol/drug problems, but he obviously bounced back in WCW so he could have continued to be a upper mid carder in WWF, or possibly even given a heel turn to feud with HBK (I could have seen this happen given the Kliq's influence at the time as well.) |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2012 6:23:07 GMT -5
yes indeed Savage still had plenty left in the tank but Vince was just determined to phase him out.heel Savage vs Bret over the title would have been great stuff...... It still bothers me that Macho Man was penciled in as the winner of the 93 Rumble reportedly up to the DAY OF until Vince changed his mind and had Yoko win. Savage vs Bret at Mania9, even as a face vs face, would have been awesome. Getting back to the topic, 1996 was a weird year. There were some great moments and matches filtered in with some obvious transition periods. I agree that HBK had little to work with in the way of major heels, but some of that was his own fault. Had he allowed Vader to go over as planned, for example, I think they could have had a solid feud heading into 97. Bulldog, Owen, Austin, Mankind, Goldust, etc were all solid heels, but at the time I dont think most people bought into them as main event heels. As for Hall and Nash, I agree that they left a bigger hole in the company at the time than anticipated. Diesel and Razor were too hugely over characters in the WWF at the time. Diesel would have been a solid main event heel for the remainder of 96, and Hall was always over. I know he had been somewhat fazed out at the time of his departure due to alcohol/drug problems, but he obviously bounced back in WCW so he could have continued to be a upper mid carder in WWF, or possibly even given a heel turn to feud with HBK (I could have seen this happen given the Kliq's influence at the time as well.) agreed on all points..... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2012 7:22:07 GMT -5
HBK had a ton of great heels to work with in 96; Sid, Owen Hart, Vader, Bulldog, Mankind, Goldust...
I feel that Crush could have been a great main event heel for Bret in 93/94, he was solid in the ring (at least at that time) and had a really imposing look about him. Adam Bomb could have also been good if he didn't have such a stupid gimmick. Obviously Ludvig Borga was supposed to be something special, he ended Tatanka's 2 year streak but just didn't get over enough as a heel to really do anything. Tatanka said in an interview that Borga was going to be pushed to the stars.
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Post by LeighD on Nov 19, 2012 8:23:39 GMT -5
HBK had a ton of great heels to work with in 96; Sid, Owen Hart, Vader, Bulldog, Mankind, Goldust... I feel that Crush could have been a great main event heel for Bret in 93/94, he was solid in the ring (at least at that time) and had a really imposing look about him. Adam Bomb could have also been good if he didn't have such a stupid gimmick. Obviously Ludvig Borga was supposed to be something special, he ended Tatanka's 2 year streak but just didn't get over enough as a heel to really do anything. Tatanka said in an interview that Borga was going to be pushed to the stars. I think had Borga not injured himself in a battle royal, he was supposed to have won the WWF title faced off against Luger at WrestleMania X. AT least that is what I've heard over the years. 1996 was definitely a weird year. The first half of the year actually looked rather solid with Bret, Diesel, HBK, Ramon, Vader, Warrior, and Undertaker. But within a few months, Hall & Nash were gone as was Warrior. Bret was taking time off and Vader was lessened considerably. I did think HBK's feud with Bulldog was great but IMO that just wasn't one to keep drawing fans. I think had Hall & Nash stayed, WCW wouldn't have been so dominant in the ratings and obviously the nWo wasn't going to happen. Plus I think Hall was moving up the ladder to the WWF title picture. Hall vs. HBK for the Title in a ladder match?! Makes you think. To add to the debate, I do think Bret's 1992 run was a lot harder from a supposrting-cast prespective. The number of big names was quickly cut within months. Bulldog, Warrior, Flair, etc were all leaving and the roster turnover is one of the highest I've seen. I mean look at the cards from 1992 and 1993. Not a lot of names that stayed. Hogan wasn't a supporting post as he was in and out within 3 months. WWF did push Yokozuna, Luger, & others, but Bret was their staple person. But at the time WCW wasn't a big threat. Had WCW's 1996 happened against WWF's 1993, WWF would not even be around today. Forward to 1996. HBK had more creditable guys to work (Bulldog, Austin, Vader, Sid, Mankind, Undertaker, etc). But I think the biggest hurt to HBK's 1996 was the fact that WCW was so HOT. I mean the nWo was on FIRE and the hottest angle going in the wrestling world. You go to one channel and you have this cool, cutting edge product. Then you turn the channel to WWF and you have a dude wearing hearts, dancing around, and doing a semi-strip show. I mean no wonder fans didn't take HBK seriously at that time and why Austin's star was finally rising! Long story short, Bret (in 1993) had a much harder time from an internal stance, while HBK (in 1996) had a harder time from an external stance. Apples vs. Oranges my friends. |
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Post by koreygunz on Nov 19, 2012 18:47:17 GMT -5
HBK had a ton of great heels to work with in 96; Sid, Owen Hart, Vader, Bulldog, Mankind, Goldust... I feel that Crush could have been a great main event heel for Bret in 93/94, he was solid in the ring (at least at that time) and had a really imposing look about him. Adam Bomb could have also been good if he didn't have such a stupid gimmick. Obviously Ludvig Borga was supposed to be something special, he ended Tatanka's 2 year streak but just didn't get over enough as a heel to really do anything. Tatanka said in an interview that Borga was going to be pushed to the stars. I think had Borga not injured himself in a battle royal, he was supposed to have won the WWF title faced off against Luger at WrestleMania X. AT least that is what I've heard over the years. 1996 was definitely a weird year. The first half of the year actually looked rather solid with Bret, Diesel, HBK, Ramon, Vader, Warrior, and Undertaker. But within a few months, Hall & Nash were gone as was Warrior. Bret was taking time off and Vader was lessened considerably. I did think HBK's feud with Bulldog was great but IMO that just wasn't one to keep drawing fans. I think had Hall & Nash stayed, WCW wouldn't have been so dominant in the ratings and obviously the nWo wasn't going to happen. Plus I think Hall was moving up the ladder to the WWF title picture. Hall vs. HBK for the Title in a ladder match?! Makes you think. To add to the debate, I do think Bret's 1992 run was a lot harder from a supposrting-cast prespective. The number of big names was quickly cut within months. Bulldog, Warrior, Flair, etc were all leaving and the roster turnover is one of the highest I've seen. I mean look at the cards from 1992 and 1993. Not a lot of names that stayed. Hogan wasn't a supporting post as he was in and out within 3 months. WWF did push Yokozuna, Luger, & others, but Bret was their staple person. But at the time WCW wasn't a big threat. Had WCW's 1996 happened against WWF's 1993, WWF would not even be around today. Forward to 1996. HBK had more creditable guys to work (Bulldog, Austin, Vader, Sid, Mankind, Undertaker, etc). But I think the biggest hurt to HBK's 1996 was the fact that WCW was so HOT. I mean the nWo was on FIRE and the hottest angle going in the wrestling world. You go to one channel and you have this cool, cutting edge product. Then you turn the channel to WWF and you have a dude wearing hearts, dancing around, and doing a semi-strip show. I mean no wonder fans didn't take HBK seriously at that time and why Austin's star was finally rising! Long story short, Bret (in 1993) had a much harder time from an internal stance, while HBK (in 1996) had a harder time from an external stance. Apples vs. Oranges my friends. I always ran this feud/angle in my 1996 EWR diary! Would have been awesome Interesting tidbit on Borga, had he not been injured I think it would have increased Lugers chances of taking the title at Mania10. Borga was supposed to face Tatanka at the 1994 Rumble (and probably gone over) until he was hurt a week before and replaced with Bigelow. Assuming the Rumble would go down as planned, I heard it was possible for Luger to take the title at Mania (which was widely rumored) and start a feud with Borga leading into SummerSlam. |
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Post by Barney Stinson on Nov 19, 2012 19:50:57 GMT -5
I had heard a rumor around the end of 95 beggining of 96 that they were actually planning ahead to have Shawn v. Razor Ladder Match 3, fot the WWF Championship and they were gonna do it at Survivor Series at the MSG, playing off the fact that the first match was held there.
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