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Post by Nivro™ on Oct 8, 2013 21:28:20 GMT -5
I still stand firm that the mindset of wrestling fans in the early 90s were that a 230lbs guy couldnt beat super heavyweights like Hogan & Warrior. To get Bret over the best thing WWE could do was to build up Yokozuna as the ultimate monster heel by letting him go over guys like Hogan, Warrior, Luger etc and THEN letting Bret do what no other legend could do in beating Yokozuna. You essentially build Yoko into an Andre the Giant like character that goes undefeated for a year + and when Bret knocks him off, its a huge deal. Just like Hogan at Wrestlemania III.
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Post by cordless2016 on Oct 8, 2013 22:29:29 GMT -5
I still stand firm that the mindset of wrestling fans in the early 90s were that a 230lbs guy couldnt beat super heavyweights like Hogan & Warrior. To get Bret over the best thing WWE could do was to build up Yokozuna as the ultimate monster heel by letting him go over guys like Hogan, Warrior, Luger etc and THEN letting Bret do what no other legend could do in beating Yokozuna. You essentially build Yoko into an Andre the Giant like character that goes undefeated for a year + and when Bret knocks him off, its a huge deal. Just like Hogan at Wrestlemania III. In Bret's book he tells a story how in 90/91 Vince told him that he was getting more fan mail than any other star on the roster, including Hogan. The fans clearly chose Bret as their hero so I don't think that the general fan still thought that only "Hogan" sized guys could be legit world champs and beat super-heavyweights. The problems were Vince and Hogan. Vince didn't want to change with the times and Hogan didn't want to pass to torch. Thus both Bret and Yoko suffered in the process.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2013 5:46:48 GMT -5
Vince is probably the only one who really still had that mindset about big guys going into the 90s.
Guys like Perfect, Bret, Dynamite Kid, etc. had been putting on stellar matches for YEARS while he kept hiring just awful talent because they were big. I'm talking Berzerker, Nails, Warlord awful.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2013 6:08:12 GMT -5
Vince is probably the only one who really still had that mindset about big guys going into the 90s. Guys like Perfect, Bret, Dynamite Kid, etc. had been putting on stellar matches for YEARS while he kept hiring just awful talent because they were big. I'm talking Berzerker, Nails, Warlord awful. Warlord was a lot better than Berzerker or Nails though.
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Post by DTP. on Oct 9, 2013 6:49:14 GMT -5
I've been studying the years of 1995 and 1996 as a part of my rebooked "WWF 1996" diary (shameless plug, it's over on the Sims board if anyone cares, but that's not the point), and I did notice that Bret's WWF title reigns were all lackluster until 1997. It was very strange to see the WWF overshadow Bret's 1996 title reign as champion by promoting a "big" WrestleMania encounter between a below-average performer at that time, the Undertaker and a man that had already given his notice and would be going to WCW in June, Diesel. I personally believe that it had something to do with the "Hitman" character, as if management thought that something was a miss with it compared to the birth of the cocky heel in Diesel and Shawn, and the original Deadman gimmick of the Undertaker. But still, it was baffling to see, as Bret could have amounted to an even more historic career despite these flaws. If Bret had left for WCW in the fall of 1996 when he made contact with WCW officials, I'm not sure if he'd have been as legendary as people make him out to be in the modern era.
And if you think about it, perhaps it was the experience factor that allowed Bret to have such a successful year in late 96 through late 97. Bret's gimmick portrayed him as being more of a veteran (which he was, thirteen years in the WWF, eighteen years as a pro) with the feud with a younger Steve Austin, and then the amount of on-screen frustration Bret had. That angle in my eyes reflected as the turnaround point in Bret's character, and that's how everything changed how he was booked - almost as if Hart was voicing his frustrations for the past four years (as you noted in the OP's post), and that's how it became full-circle. And then you have the added definition of the "Hitman" character in turning heel on the USA, the rivalry with Steve Austin and later, Shawn Michaels. I think everything after Montreal with Bret going to WCW, and later on his induction into the Hall of Fame and return to the WWE was solely about Montreal and his Canada-loving gimmick from 1997 - overshadowing any of his WWF title reigns.
However I will disagree with one thing: Hart's final WWF title reign sucked too. He beat Undertaker with help from Shawn Michaels, went on to have decent matches yet a lackluster feud with the Patriot, a pay-per-view where Bret's title wasn't even a factor (in autumn 1997, when WCW was arguably peaking in kicking the WWF's ass), and then the match with Shawn at the Survivor Series.
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Post by cordless2016 on Oct 9, 2013 9:21:01 GMT -5
I've been studying the years of 1995 and 1996 as a part of my rebooked "WWF 1996" diary (shameless plug, it's over on the Sims board if anyone cares, but that's not the point), and I did notice that Bret's WWF title reigns were all lackluster until 1997. It was very strange to see the WWF overshadow Bret's 1996 title reign as champion by promoting a "big" WrestleMania encounter between a below-average performer at that time, the Undertaker and a man that had already given his notice and would be going to WCW in June, Diesel. I personally believe that it had something to do with the "Hitman" character, as if management thought that something was a miss with it compared to the birth of the cocky heel in Diesel and Shawn, and the original Deadman gimmick of the Undertaker. But still, it was baffling to see, as Bret could have amounted to an even more historic career despite these flaws. If Bret had left for WCW in the fall of 1996 when he made contact with WCW officials, I'm not sure if he'd have been as legendary as people make him out to be in the modern era. And if you think about it, perhaps it was the experience factor that allowed Bret to have such a successful year in late 96 through late 97. Bret's gimmick portrayed him as being more of a veteran (which he was, thirteen years in the WWF, eighteen years as a pro) with the feud with a younger Steve Austin, and then the amount of on-screen frustration Bret had. That angle in my eyes reflected as the turnaround point in Bret's character, and that's how everything changed how he was booked - almost as if Hart was voicing his frustrations for the past four years (as you noted in the OP's post), and that's how it became full-circle. And then you have the added definition of the "Hitman" character in turning heel on the USA, the rivalry with Steve Austin and later, Shawn Michaels. I think everything after Montreal with Bret going to WCW, and later on his induction into the Hall of Fame and return to the WWE was solely about Montreal and his Canada-loving gimmick from 1997 - overshadowing any of his WWF title reigns. However I will disagree with one thing: Hart's final WWF title reign sucked too. He beat Undertaker with help from Shawn Michaels, went on to have decent matches yet a lackluster feud with the Patriot, a pay-per-view where Bret's title wasn't even a factor (in autumn 1997, when WCW was arguably peaking in kicking the WWF's ass), and then the match with Shawn at the Survivor Series. Great post. As others have said Bret's later title reigns were never booked strong. During his third world title run yes he beat Diesel who had held the title for a year but Bret was pushed to the background so Vince could promote Shawn as the next big star. During the lead up to WM12 he was portrayed as the old, past his prime veteran while Shawn was portrayed as the new young gun. His fourth reign last 24 hours. His fifth and final WWF Title reign suffered the same as fate as his third title reign (as you described). Instead of being featured as the main star, Bret to a second seat to the Taker/Shawn feud while he defended the title in throw away matches against the Patriot and Vader. I think its speaks volumes to Bret's talents that he was able to create such a legendary career even though Vince never fully pushed him as the face of the company.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2013 9:33:14 GMT -5
I've been studying the years of 1995 and 1996 as a part of my rebooked "WWF 1996" diary (shameless plug, it's over on the Sims board if anyone cares, but that's not the point), and I did notice that Bret's WWF title reigns were all lackluster until 1997. It was very strange to see the WWF overshadow Bret's 1996 title reign as champion by promoting a "big" WrestleMania encounter between a below-average performer at that time, the Undertaker and a man that had already given his notice and would be going to WCW in June, Diesel. I personally believe that it had something to do with the "Hitman" character, as if management thought that something was a miss with it compared to the birth of the cocky heel in Diesel and Shawn, and the original Deadman gimmick of the Undertaker. But still, it was baffling to see, as Bret could have amounted to an even more historic career despite these flaws. If Bret had left for WCW in the fall of 1996 when he made contact with WCW officials, I'm not sure if he'd have been as legendary as people make him out to be in the modern era. And if you think about it, perhaps it was the experience factor that allowed Bret to have such a successful year in late 96 through late 97. Bret's gimmick portrayed him as being more of a veteran (which he was, thirteen years in the WWF, eighteen years as a pro) with the feud with a younger Steve Austin, and then the amount of on-screen frustration Bret had. That angle in my eyes reflected as the turnaround point in Bret's character, and that's how everything changed how he was booked - almost as if Hart was voicing his frustrations for the past four years (as you noted in the OP's post), and that's how it became full-circle. And then you have the added definition of the "Hitman" character in turning heel on the USA, the rivalry with Steve Austin and later, Shawn Michaels. I think everything after Montreal with Bret going to WCW, and later on his induction into the Hall of Fame and return to the WWE was solely about Montreal and his Canada-loving gimmick from 1997 - overshadowing any of his WWF title reigns. However I will disagree with one thing: Hart's final WWF title reign sucked too. He beat Undertaker with help from Shawn Michaels, went on to have decent matches yet a lackluster feud with the Patriot, a pay-per-view where Bret's title wasn't even a factor (in autumn 1997, when WCW was arguably peaking in kicking the WWF's ass), and then the match with Shawn at the Survivor Series. Great post. As others have said Bret's later title reigns were never booked strong. During his third world title run yes he beat Diesel who had held the title for a year but Bret was pushed to the background so Vince could promote Shawn as the next big star. During the lead up to WM12 he was portrayed as the old, past his prime veteran while Shawn was portrayed as the new young gun. His fourth reign last 24 hours. His fifth and final WWF Title reign suffered the same as fate as his third title reign (as you described). Instead of being featured as the main star, Bret to a second seat to the Taker/Shawn feud while he defended the title in throw away matches against the Patriot and Vader. I think its speaks volumes to Bret's talents that he was able to create such a legendary career even though Vince never fully pushed him as the face of the company. I wouldn't say that Vince never pushed Bret as the #1 guy. If you look at 94 he chose Bret over his handpicked Luger, but that was the only time that it ever felt like the WWF pushed Bret as the #1 guy (until Vince decided to turn Nash face and put the strap on him) voluntarily. Unfortunately for Vince, the fans always saw Bret as the main guy, starting as early as 91 (where he recieved more fan mail than anyone else including Hogan, Warrior and Savage).
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TheEvilDoink1987
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Post by TheEvilDoink1987 on Oct 9, 2013 11:31:09 GMT -5
I think that 1994 was the ONLY year where you can say that Bret was THE guy in the WWF.
Nobody overshadowed him and he wasn't dropped down the card in order to elevate a lesser talent. When you reflect back on a certain year in wrestling usually one guy comes to mind. When I think of '94, that guy is definitely Bret.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2013 11:36:51 GMT -5
I think that 1994 was the ONLY year where you can say that Bret was THE guy in the WWF. Nobody overshadowed him and he wasn't dropped down the card in order to elevate a lesser talent. When you reflect back on a certain year in wrestling usually one guy comes to mind. When I think of '94, that guy is definitely Bret. Depends how you look at it. In Vinces eye's. Yes. From a fan perspective? Absolutely not.
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Post by DTP. on Oct 9, 2013 13:14:57 GMT -5
In all regards, Bret's legendary status is renowned in WWE's eyes for his long tenure in the company and his great technical skills and psychology, as well as Montreal and his heel run in 1997. I believe that those overlook everything about those five title reigns.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2013 14:36:35 GMT -5
I dunno. I just feel like we got so much greatness out of Bret in 1997 that I can forgive his 24 hour title reign. That whole thing was a mess as HBK was supposed to drop it to Bret at Wrestlemania 13.
We were also scheduled to get Bret vs. HBK at King of the Ring 1997 but Bret's knee wasn't fully healed so we got HBK vs. Stone Cold which was great anyway.
I love, love, love his match with Undertaker at Summerslam. Again, I understand him taking a "backseat" and feuding with The Patriot because WWF was trying to cash in on the whole USA/Canada angle as much as possible. Bret was still the number 1 heel in the company even if HBK vs. Undertaker was a bigger feud. The only thing that pisses me off is when people talk about HBK and Undertaker main eventing Badd Blood over the champion, Bret Hart, who didn't even defend the title that night because he was in a tag match.
The only thing I would MAYBE change was having Bret be involved more with the Undertaker/HBK feud. As Haggar stated, a triple threat match with those three would have been amazing. However, by the time Survivor Series had rolled around the HBK/Undertaker feud had been put on hold due to the debut of Kane.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2013 15:53:21 GMT -5
Vince is probably the only one who really still had that mindset about big guys going into the 90s. Guys like Perfect, Bret, Dynamite Kid, etc. had been putting on stellar matches for YEARS while he kept hiring just awful talent because they were big. I'm talking Berzerker, Nails, Warlord awful. Warlord was a lot better than Berzerker or Nails though. Ehhh...to each their own man. You say a lot better while I say slightly less sh*tty.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2013 16:27:06 GMT -5
Warlord was a lot better than Berzerker or Nails though. Ehhh...to each their own man. You say a lot better while I say slightly less sh*tty. Check out Warlord's match with Neidhart, they had a good 15 minute match together. Nails and Berzerker couldn't have a good match if their lives depended on it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2013 18:35:10 GMT -5
Warlord was a lot better than Berzerker or Nails though. Ehhh...to each their own man. You say a lot better while I say slightly less sh*tty. Agreed.Warlord IMO was dead weight.but that's neither here nor there.
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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on Oct 12, 2013 10:20:29 GMT -5
One of the main reasons why Vice McMahon went back to Bret was merely because of his drawing ability internationally. The WWF's business domestically was in the toilet so they later used Bret as a way to market business internationally. Case in point, look at the venues the WWF was booking state-side for their RAW/Superstars/Challenge taping's. Say all you want but Bret was the face of the New Generation Era.
The problems that led the WWF to go into what was the lean years is McMahon felt out of touch with his audience. As a result, business declined. To compensate for their loss was doing international tours and put Bret as their marquee guy. I read a story somewhere years ago that after In Your House 4, Vince McMahon grabbed Kevin Nash by the throat and told him "Next month, you're losing the ******* title." Whereas Bret was able to draw, Diesel and Shawn Michaels failed to put asses in seats.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2013 14:20:24 GMT -5
I read a story somewhere years ago that after In Your House 4, Vince McMahon grabbed Kevin Nash by the throat and told him "Next month, you're losing the ******* title." I HIGHLY doubt the same man that hid behind a metal door in his office after the Screwjob would EVER do that, especially to a 7 foot, 320lb monster.
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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on Oct 12, 2013 14:26:15 GMT -5
I read a story somewhere years ago that after In Your House 4, Vince McMahon grabbed Kevin Nash by the throat and told him "Next month, you're losing the ******* title." I HIGHLY doubt the same man that hid behind a metal door in his office after the Screwjob would EVER do that, especially to a 7 foot, 320lb monster. Its something I heard from another message board years ago. I can't vouch for that story nor can I confirm it.
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Y2J13
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Post by Y2J13 on Oct 12, 2013 15:10:03 GMT -5
Ehhh...to each their own man. You say a lot better while I say slightly less sh*tty. Check out Warlord's match with Neidhart, they had a good 15 minute match together. Nails and Berzerker couldn't have a good match if their lives depended on it. Yeah, not believing that at all. Warlord sucked balls and Neidhart wasn't exactly a peach in the ring.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2013 15:19:40 GMT -5
Check out Warlord's match with Neidhart, they had a good 15 minute match together. Nails and Berzerker couldn't have a good match if their lives depended on it. Yeah, not believing that at all. Warlord sucked balls and Neidhart wasn't exactly a peach in the ring.
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Y2J13
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Post by Y2J13 on Oct 12, 2013 15:23:56 GMT -5
Yeah, not believing that at all. Warlord sucked balls and Neidhart wasn't exactly a peach in the ring.me = homer you = flanders
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