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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Feb 23, 2014 8:41:07 GMT -5
Self-explanatory.
I think it really improved it. If he stayed retired after 1998 he would've gone down as a great, but not one of THE greats. Now, I'd say he's certainly in the top 10 ever, a great deal of which was down to his 02-10 run where he had MOTY candidates nearly every month it seemed.
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Post by Mox on Feb 23, 2014 8:44:09 GMT -5
Top 10 easy. And I agree with you.
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Post by Rule 30 on Feb 23, 2014 8:58:29 GMT -5
Yeah, his run from 2002-2010 cemented him as one of the greats. We got all of these great feuds from his ones vs. Undertaker, Triple H, Jericho, Cena, Angle, Orton, Edge, Benoit, Flair, and we got some one off matches against guys like Mysterio and Benjamin. Shame he never got to go up against Punk, Bryan, and a few others from today.
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Post by LA Times on Feb 23, 2014 9:25:08 GMT -5
Significant improvement. He had MOTYs against Jericho, HHH & Benoit, Kurt Angle, John Cena, Ric Flair, Undertaker and even Vince McMahon to a totally new audience who might not have seen him as a Rocker or in 1995-98. New Generation Era HBK was great, but RA Era HBK was better. It definitely gave him the career longevity required to be a HOFer that I dont think he wouldve had if he stayed retired after 1998.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2014 10:05:58 GMT -5
I'd say it put him in the top 20 of all time. His character wasn't great, but his matches were generally better.
Had he retired at 98, he'd have probably been seen as a midcarder who when he got given the title couldn't run with it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2014 10:33:27 GMT -5
HUGE improvement.
I've talked about thia before but I view 90s HBK as incredibly overrated as his work was always solid but his selling was almost comical at times. Plus his attitude was total sh*t.
However, his 2002-2010 run was fantastic and made me an HBK fan.
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Infinite
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Post by Infinite on Feb 23, 2014 10:43:48 GMT -5
I love mid 90s HBK, but man he was absolutely incredible during his second run. Honestly, after that run I'm not sure there's anyone in WWE history that's had that many great matches.
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Post by Next Man’s Yeeter on Feb 23, 2014 10:47:24 GMT -5
Massive difference. He was one of the all-time greats by 1998 anyway, but his second run really got him out of that post-Hogan, pre-Austin club of guys who couldn't draw a stickman. He got to wrestle in hugely successful events, and furthered his legacy tremendously with years of top-notch performances unmarred by crapty attitudes and pretend injuries. He was always top ten, but he's in that Undertaker/Flair club now... Not on the same level as Hogan/Austin/Cena/Rock, but always a worthy candidate for "best ever" when you factor in quality and main event longevity etc.
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Post by cordless2016 on Feb 23, 2014 18:20:07 GMT -5
It simply added to his already great career but people overrate his second run big time.
In-ring wise yes he had some great matches but people act like everything he did was gold when he put on good matches and duds like everyone else. For example his match with Flair at WM24 was a dud to me but people act like it is a 5* classic because of the finale 10 seconds. Doesn't change the fact the match was average at best. His match w/ Taker at WM25 was easily the best match of the night, but to call it the best match ever at WM, let alone the greatest ever is giving it too much credit. His feud in 2008 w/ Jericho produced some good matches but I'd take their WM19 match over anything they did in 2008.
Character wise I hated him from 2006-2010. When he first returned he was fine. Even though he "found religion" he still kept a slight edge to his character. When he reformed DX it all went downhill and it was sad IMO watching a guy in his 40s try to act like a goof ball and spewing bad sophomoric jokes.
I'm not an HBK hated. I loved HBK in the 90s. I loved him during his first few years after making a full time return. Great talent but to say he is a top 2 star of all time is absurd. The guy was good in the ring and had a great character during his first run but was never a top draw and was never the face of the company. He seems to be held in higher regard than he should because of the WWE revisionists and the majority of the IWC buying that crap. The guy simply never left wrestling besides for his 4 year hiatus unlike top names like Hogan, Rock, and Austin and thus benefitted greatly from it like his buddy HHH.
I could make an argument to put him in the back half of my top 10 of all time if I really wanted to but I'd be more fine putting him somewhere in the 11-20 range at best.
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Post by Todd Pettengill on Feb 23, 2014 19:24:58 GMT -5
To come back after 4 years with serious back problems and still be the best worker for 8 more years says an awful lot to how great he is. He was the reason I started watching in the mid 90's so it was absolutely awesome to see him come back and properly seal his career. So in my opinion his come back truly transformed his career into one of the greatest ever.
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Post by McBlake on Feb 23, 2014 19:29:12 GMT -5
His 2nd run absolutely trumped his first, so completely transformed despite already being a great.
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Post by Duck Holliday on Feb 23, 2014 19:53:52 GMT -5
Made a huge difference. Took him from being a top 25 of all time to easily a top 15-8 and I sure to some, even higher.
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WMDman
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Post by WMDman on Feb 23, 2014 21:21:28 GMT -5
Major improvement, completely overshadowed his first run
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Post by The Yes Man on Feb 23, 2014 22:19:18 GMT -5
I wish he had been more selfish, and had a longer reign with the title after Survivor Series 2002.
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Post by BoJack Hogan on Feb 23, 2014 22:33:20 GMT -5
Huge! Arguably his best years, which is amazing. Don't get me wrong, aside from the Summerslam 02 match with Trips, Michaels wasn't exactly the HBK of old when he first came around, and I would include his brief stint with the title in that period. He looked...off. He wasn't quite the same, he wasn't the showstopper, and wasn't really a character. He pretty much looked and acted like a freshly born again christian who was kind of having an identity crisis, sort of out of his element. This is no knock on the man, just an observation. It seemed that he lacked the confidence, possibly still haunted by his sins of the past or the man he once was. That switch didn't really turn until about a year or 16 months later. After that...hoooooo boy! Some of the best matches ever, and most of the best matches of the 2000s. He got his confidence back, his attitude was back, he was cocky again, and a total character; the REAL Shawn Michaels. That's what he remains to this day, the REAL, over the top (in a good way) Showstopper that he was always meant to be. I would definitely say that this is Michaels true prime, which is saying quite a lot.
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Post by HHH316 on Feb 23, 2014 23:05:05 GMT -5
I think it made a huge improvement. I can still remember back in the day on this board & others, trying to sell people on how great HBK was in the 90s, but a lot of fans had never seen him before. After he retired in 1998, he didn't return until 2002, & there wasn't easy access to the WWE library back then. So him coming back & showing the world how great he was in the 90s & still was in the present day cemented him as one of the GOAT.
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China Claus
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Post by China Claus on Feb 23, 2014 23:38:48 GMT -5
If it didn't transform his career, it took it to a whole other level. I think Shawn not only gained the respect of a whole different generation of fans, but the respect of his peers. I always wished he had held more titles during his second run, though.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2014 8:17:54 GMT -5
great topic Mike......and yeah it made a whopping difference IMO.
his series with Angle, HHH, and Undertaker were awesome......he was doing some great stuff no doubt.
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Post by Self-Savior on Feb 24, 2014 8:26:58 GMT -5
A major improvement than his first run as he carried himself much more mature than he had in the '90s. It was great to see that after having major back surgery that he could make a return and compete for another 8 years and go out on his own terms.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2014 8:34:33 GMT -5
This topic made me re watch his Gold Rush tourney match with Shelton Benjamin.
man it was incredible.....
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