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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2014 22:56:25 GMT -5
Well I never understood it. I grew up on the Monday night wars. And yet I find myself fast forwarding through a lot of those shows on the network. Anything with guys like DX, Austin, Foley, Rock, Taker, Vince, etc is gold but there is a lot of garbage as well. I feel the AE or MNW era is 50% nostalgia 50% substance. The reason it was so exciting is because of switching back and forth and never knowing what would happen. Now a days we are hearing reports about WM matches and even Summer Slam matches 6 months out and more times then not they are true. Theres no more surprises. Every return is spoiled, every debut is spoiled, heel/face turns are spoiled, there's so much that is ruined in pro wrestling because of the internet. Honestly I think that's why I find myself watching Beyond the ring, WM Rewind, Legends of Wrestling etc more then actual in ring product. With the internet there is no more mystery to wrestling which has caused me to become more interested in the behind the scenes aspect of the business. And how things came to be. If WWE could keep their plans hidden and actually shock the fans people wouldn't complain as much. You know what I never understood about this complain though? You have to actually go out of your way to read this. If you stayed off the dirt sheets and kept yourself away from the insider news, things would still be a surprised. Would they be as surprising as back in the day without the internet as we have it today? Maybe not, but I'm a long term wrestling fan, I used to read spoilers and live on forums and dirt sheets, then I just stopped. I don't need to know if Jericho is coming back or what the tentative plans for Survivor Series are. I just stay away from that stuff and occupy the space with more wrestling or other things. It's easy for me to not read the Smackdown spoilers and instead, watch some indy wrestling or now with the WWE Network, cram lots of old school stuff. And if it's not wrestling, it's playing a video game, reading a book, watching TV shows, working out, or whatever. I know that sounds excessive, but I just don't get it, do you really need to read those things? Is it that important that you need to scour wrestlezone or come here and open up every forum? I discuss wrestling on here and other places, but even then, I find it's really easy to avoid spoilers and stuff, and just stick to discussions about Impact or RAW and if I do see any news, it's non important stuff, like someone being hired by the WWE or CHIKARA being brought back. I mean, I'm not gonna act like if you avoid spoilers the product instantly gets better, but i think there is some improvement if you're not attached to your monitor, refreshing each page needing to know what Bray's next feud is or if Taker is gonna wrestle Sting. Let that stuff come naturally, sit back and enjoy it man. Wrestling is supposed to be fun, you can discuss it, you can analyze it, but when you go above and beyond and actively spoil it, I think it kills it.
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Post by Jonathan Karate on May 29, 2014 23:20:54 GMT -5
Well I never understood it. I grew up on the Monday night wars. And yet I find myself fast forwarding through a lot of those shows on the network. Anything with guys like DX, Austin, Foley, Rock, Taker, Vince, etc is gold but there is a lot of garbage as well. I feel the AE or MNW era is 50% nostalgia 50% substance. The reason it was so exciting is because of switching back and forth and never knowing what would happen. Now a days we are hearing reports about WM matches and even Summer Slam matches 6 months out and more times then not they are true. Theres no more surprises. Every return is spoiled, every debut is spoiled, heel/face turns are spoiled, there's so much that is ruined in pro wrestling because of the internet. Honestly I think that's why I find myself watching Beyond the ring, WM Rewind, Legends of Wrestling etc more then actual in ring product. With the internet there is no more mystery to wrestling which has caused me to become more interested in the behind the scenes aspect of the business. And how things came to be. If WWE could keep their plans hidden and actually shock the fans people wouldn't complain as much. You know what I never understood about this complain though? You have to actually go out of your way to read this. If you stayed off the dirt sheets and kept yourself away from the insider news, things would still be a surprised. Would they be as surprising as back in the day without the internet as we have it today? Maybe not, but I'm a long term wrestling fan, I used to read spoilers and live on forums and dirt sheets, then I just stopped. I don't need to know if Jericho is coming back or what the tentative plans for Survivor Series are. I just stay away from that stuff and occupy the space with more wrestling or other things. It's easy for me to not read the Smackdown spoilers and instead, watch some indy wrestling or now with the WWE Network, cram lots of old school stuff. And if it's not wrestling, it's playing a video game, reading a book, watching TV shows, working out, or whatever. I know that sounds excessive, but I just don't get it, do you really need to read those things? Is it that important that you need to scour wrestlezone or come here and open up every forum? I discuss wrestling on here and other places, but even then, I find it's really easy to avoid spoilers and stuff, and just stick to discussions about Impact or RAW and if I do see any news, it's non important stuff, like someone being hired by the WWE or CHIKARA being brought back. I mean, I'm not gonna act like if you avoid spoilers the product instantly gets better, but i think there is some improvement if you're not attached to your monitor, refreshing each page needing to know what Bray's next feud is or if Taker is gonna wrestle Sting. Let that stuff come naturally, sit back and enjoy it man. Wrestling is supposed to be fun, you can discuss it, you can analyze it, but when you go above and beyond and actively spoil it, I think it kills it. See the thing is I love this forum and discussing wrestling on here because I don't have many people in my life who are fans so I don't have anywhere else to discuss really. And simply clicking the WWE section could spoil something huge. Its a shame.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2014 23:25:05 GMT -5
So maybe bookmark the individual topics of discuss, like the NXT one or the RAW one. I understand if you want to discuss things, it's a crap shoot of finding a forum and not being spoiled, but it's gotta be easier than you're making it seem. And while I love discussing wrestling, I personally have opted to just ignore discussing some stuff because I don't need to inadvertently get something spoiled. I dunno, that's just me, I find myself enjoying wrestling a lot better without reading a bunch of dirt sheets and worrying about who's getting pushed, when I can fill the void with other wrestling and just sit back and be a fan.
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Post by slappy on May 29, 2014 23:35:42 GMT -5
I'm not sure which pisses me off more; people complaining about the PG rating or people complaining about the lack of chair shots to the head.
Actually, complaining about chair shots to the head is probably worse because we now know the damage that can do and yet not only do fans still clamor for it, non-WWE companies still do it.
Paul Heyman said if he knew then what he knows now he never would have allowed chair shots to the head in ECW. So we have someone those people admire saying it, I just wish they'd listen.
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Post by rustyy on May 30, 2014 0:05:04 GMT -5
This current era is the possibly the best it's been, since the Ruthless Aggression Era... if not ever. Majority of the matches these young guys have been having on RAW, SmackDown, NXT and these Pay-Per-Views have been amazing. Nostalgia wears off quickly. Especially with the Attitude Era. Except today's product sucks if you like any sort of build or story to the matches. You can have a 5 star match but without build up or story it's worthless and wasted effort. I didn't watch the AE but from what I've gone back to see it's a lot of cheesy stories but either way it's a story and people had stuff to do. And Paul Heyman saying he'd have banned chair shots in ECW he's full of crap.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2014 0:50:45 GMT -5
This current era is the possibly the best it's been, since the Ruthless Aggression Era... if not ever. Majority of the matches these young guys have been having on RAW, SmackDown, NXT and these Pay-Per-Views have been amazing. Nostalgia wears off quickly. Especially with the Attitude Era. Except today's product sucks if you like any sort of build or story to the matches. You can have a 5 star match but without build up or story it's worthless and wasted effort. I didn't watch the AE but from what I've gone back to see it's a lot of cheesy stories but either way it's a story and people had stuff to do. And Paul Heyman saying he'd have banned chair shots in ECW he's full of crap. No buildup? We must be watching different shows then.
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Post by rustyy on May 30, 2014 1:03:19 GMT -5
For main event feuds maybe, but tell me how sheamus vs ADR did anything besides to two wrestlers and make them have a match? Or what's the story with big e and russev? No one ever gets promo time except trips, wyatt and Cena.
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Post by Wato Stan Account on May 30, 2014 1:13:08 GMT -5
For main event feuds maybe, but tell me how sheamus vs ADR did anything besides to two wrestlers and make them have a match? Or what's the story with big e and russev? No one ever gets promo time except trips, wyatt and Cena. I see Big E and Rusev as rather simple. Rusev is going around attacking guys smaller than him, so Big E (maybe he was bored with no title to bum around with) decided to say HELL NO and equaled the playing field. Simple monster heel vs face story. I never see promos as a NEED to move a story along in wrestling. Can it help? Sure. But I get the basic idea when one guy comes to save others and then wants to fight. Easy dynamic. Sheamus/ADR? No idea, pretty sure that's not even an upcoming match considering Sheamus is fighting Cesaro on Sunday. Which is also simple, they had one match that ended in a draw. Second match, Cesaro beats the champ and earns a shot. Thus, he gets a shot at the PPV. Yeah, the crowd gets more into it if there's promos BUT HOW WILL I EVER FIND OUT ABOUT THE WWE NETWORK IF THAT HAPPENS?! Oh well, I still understand how A got to C.
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Post by Next Man’s No 503K on May 30, 2014 3:43:06 GMT -5
Undertaker was an instant success. It was a simpler time in the wrestling business so it's not a fair comparison with Adam Rose (or even The Rock as fans were getting cynical as hell by 1996/97), but Taker was absolutely a success from the start. WWF fans had never seen anything like that character, and he had those crowds in the palm of his hand from day one. To say The Undertaker was an instant success is like saying Steve Austin and Triple H were an instant success. The WWF knew they had a sure thing with The Undertaker when he started getting cheered at the 1991 Survivor Series. False. I don't know if you weren't watching at the time or if you have weird ideas of a character working or what, but Undertaker was over from the second he walked into the arena that first time. If the WWF didn't know they had something with him, he wouldn't have been in the spot he was in at the 1991 Survivor Series in the first place. Andre The Giant. Ultimate Warrior. Undertaker. Those are the wrestlers that pinned Hulk Hogan for the belt in his big WWF run. They didn't just give those wins on Hogan to "lol well maybe he'll get over later lol" guys. Undertaker got that booking because he was one of the characters on the show that got the audience's attention. Taker's not the only guy to work straight out of the gate, either: Ric Flair, Yokozuna, Razor Ramon, Goldust, Kane, Rob Van Dam, CM Punk, The Shield, Bray Wyatt all hit the ground running from their debuts too. And those are just the ones off the top of my head.
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Post by ztj_wwf on May 30, 2014 5:23:54 GMT -5
Yeah I hate it. All I see on WWE's facebook posts and stuff is "wwe sux bring back the attitude era" and "bring back stone cold and goldberg these guys today suck"...And these are usually said by kids who were too young to even live through the Attitude Era.
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Post by Brad on May 30, 2014 7:53:55 GMT -5
Rose colored glasses my friend. That's all it is. People look back and think of how things were so much better. It's like that in all aspects of life. I still enjoy stuff from the past but I refuse to let that hinder my enjoyment of the present.
I said it last night but this thread warrants it being said again. The product right now is the best it's been in four years. Anyone who thinks differently just won't let go of "What was"
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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on May 30, 2014 8:00:08 GMT -5
To say The Undertaker was an instant success is like saying Steve Austin and Triple H were an instant success. The WWF knew they had a sure thing with The Undertaker when he started getting cheered at the 1991 Survivor Series. False. I don't know if you weren't watching at the time or if you have weird ideas of a character working or what, but Undertaker was over from the second he walked into the arena that first time. If the WWF didn't know they had something with him, he wouldn't have been in the spot he was in at the 1991 Survivor Series in the first place. Andre The Giant. Ultimate Warrior. Undertaker. Those are the wrestlers that pinned Hulk Hogan for the belt in his big WWF run. They didn't just give those wins on Hogan to "lol well maybe he'll get over later lol" guys. Undertaker got that booking because he was one of the characters on the show that got the audience's attention. Taker's not the only guy to work straight out of the gate, either: Ric Flair, Yokozuna, Razor Ramon, Goldust, Kane, Rob Van Dam, CM Punk, The Shield, Bray Wyatt all hit the ground running from their debuts too. And those are just the ones off the top of my head. While it seems like The Undertaker was over with the audience, look how long it took him to become the WWF Champion. A year and five days from Survivor Series 1990 to Survivor Series 1991. You can't compare The Undertaker's debut to Ric Flair's debut. When Flair came onto the scene, he was designed to add another top guy to the WWF's roster. When Flair jumped ship to the WWF, hardly anybody knew what to expect. When The Undertaker debuted, Mark Calaway took a character that was over-the-top, lived the gimmick, and ran with the ball he was given. Over time, he evolved with the times and became one of the WWF's biggest attractions. I recall hearing Steve Austin mentioning that he hated the Ringmaster gimmick. In the beginning, he made it work and evolved into Stone Cold. If The Undertaker came in today, he would not have been given the notoriety that he has. When talents arrive onto the scene, the timing has to be there to garner any type of success. Mark Calaway just happened to be there at the right time. You failed to mentioned the longevity The Undertaker had. He was 25 years old when he debuted. One of the reasons why The Undertaker has been such a success (not an overnight success) is because on his loyalty to the WWE and his longevity. Longevity means everything in wrestling. Look at Bray Wyatt, The Shield, John Cena, The Rock, Triple H, The Rock, the list goes on and on from there. The Undertaker made an impact but internally, he wasn't viewed as an overnight success.
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Post by Next Man’s No 503K on May 30, 2014 8:02:59 GMT -5
While it seems like The Undertaker was over with the audience, look how long it took him to become the WWF Champion. A year and five days from Survivor Series 1990 to Survivor Series 1991. Completely irrelevant. I'm guessing you weren't watching at the time. In that era of wrestling, not everyone got the belt straight away -- plenty of top wrestlers didn't get it at all. Undertaker was nothing like the Ringmaster.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2014 9:49:43 GMT -5
For main event feuds maybe, but tell me how sheamus vs ADR did anything besides to two wrestlers and make them have a match? Or what's the story with big e and russev? No one ever gets promo time except trips, wyatt and Cena. I see Big E and Rusev as rather simple. Rusev is going around attacking guys smaller than him, so Big E (maybe he was bored with no title to bum around with) decided to say HELL NO and equaled the playing field. Simple monster heel vs face story. I never see promos as a NEED to move a story along in wrestling. Can it help? Sure. But I get the basic idea when one guy comes to save others and then wants to fight. Easy dynamic. Sheamus/ADR? No idea, pretty sure that's not even an upcoming match considering Sheamus is fighting Cesaro on Sunday. Which is also simple, they had one match that ended in a draw. Second match, Cesaro beats the champ and earns a shot. Thus, he gets a shot at the PPV. Yeah, the crowd gets more into it if there's promos BUT HOW WILL I EVER FIND OUT ABOUT THE WWE NETWORK IF THAT HAPPENS?! Oh well, I still understand how A got to C. I agree highly with this point. Promos help, but sometimes, a simple course of actions is enough to sell something. It seems like you need your hand held and things explained in great detail to understand what they're doing. When really, a few matches with different outcomes and actions from the wrestlers, can be just as effective as Bray Wyatt coming out and cutting promos week after week. And really, not everyone can cut promos or not everyone has a character that is conducive to angles that involve lots of promos and backstage angles. What more do you need for a match with Cesaro and Sheamus, than what he said and they've pushed on TV? Cesaro has been pushed hard as one of the new faces in the WWE, Sheamus is a member of the old guard who has reached the top of the mountain, but still has years left in him. Both are good wrestlers, if not great in terms of Cesaro, but both can brawl and that was what was pushed on Main Event when they wrestled to a double count out. Then, Sheamus and Cesaro have simple heat of not just having no winner in their first match, but beating the heck out of each other, so Sheamus wants another shot, as does Cesaro. Cesaro wins, and bam, you get a third match with the title on the line. I know I just repeated what he posted, but see, it's so simple, but yet it seems if they don't spell it out for you, you just think it's random nonsense. Not every feud needs some over the top explanation. Some of it can be built around simplicity. You want to say "oh everyone in the Attitude Era had stories, from the top to the bottom" but seriously, go look at some of those things, were they always that good? Is it a good thing to throw a bunch of stuff at the wall and try to cram in 100 angles in 30 minutes just so the Blue Meanie has a reason to be on TV? Can they give more guys pushes? Yeah, absolutely. Can they give more guys TV time?Totally. But at the same time, spacing things out and giving enough time to the angles, as complex or simple as they be, makes them feel more important. I'd rather see a nice chunk of time dedicated to Sheamus and Cesaro, so I can feel a sense of importance in their match. Rather than, they have a quick 2 minute segment that is rushed, so we can get in another 4 segments in the next 15 minutes so people everyone has a story. Especially, if, like I said, it seems like you're just throwing stuff at the wall and coming up with nonsense just so Curt Hawkins or JTG are on TV. Frankly, I feel the love of the Attitude Era is like underselling WCW. You have fond memories of all the good stuff and even the stuff that is on the lower end of the scale in terms of quality, is praised because it was entertaining when you were a teen or a kid or whatever. Or, you only let the WWE tell you about all the good stuff, much like how WCW only gets memories of the dying days and with stuff like Wrestlecrap's Death of WCW book and WWE putting out DVDs that try to push how bad it was, except for like a year when the NWO came in, people think "man, WCW blew". Yet, it didn't, sure it was pretty bad during the dying days, but there were still a lot of good things about WCW. Fact is, 90-92 is probably one of the best eras of in ring wrestling. Sure, they had gimmicks and bad stuff, but you had guys like Austin, Pillman, Flair, Steiners, Doc and Gordy, Road Warriors, Dangerous Alliance, Sting, Windham, and more having great matches. Seriously go watch some of the 92 PPVs or Clashes if you have the Network, you'll see some awesome stuff there. Just like if you actually watched the Attitude Era stuff now, I don't think it holds up as much, not to mention all the stuff that sucked that will come flooding back or you missed because the WWE buries that stuff away. I watched one of the UK PPVs from 99, headlined by the Rock and Triple H in a cage. And on the surface, it seemed awesome, these two are great workers, had great matches together, put em in a cage, what could go wrong? It was a boring match where it was just like "hit a spot, spend forever fighting on the cage". Then they brawl outside of the cage, and that part wasn't all that exciting. Then a bunch of people ran down and it felt so overbooked and stuff, like, sure that was the nature of the product of the time, but it wasn't all that good. Sometimes I think that people concoct this fantasy product in their head and wrestling will never be good, as long as it's not like this magical, fantasy promotion they're thinking. Forgetting that WWE is a promotion that caters towards lots of demographics, not just those longing for the past. And sometimes the stuff they want the WWE to do, makes no sense, but it just comes from that "well, I want this guy to be champion, so screw logic or build, just do it my way" Wrestling is a complex beast to book, you have so many things to worry about when trying to put together a show or an angle. Especially trying to play to all the fans who buy tickets and not alienate them. ROH had Jim Cornette, a legendary figure come in and he was booking shows that people hated, because he didn't understand the fans and what they wanted. So, it's not a simple as turning Cena heel, if he's still got a nice fanbase, especially if it would just be "oh the fans don't like me, I'm turning heel "without any real build or anything. Wrestling is supposed to be fun, I said it earlier, we can discuss things, we can talk about things, we can criticize things. But let's not try to get too worked up over things, just sit back and have fun. If you're not enjoying it, either stop watching or go find something else. You know how many wrestling promotions exist now a days? You know how many are easy to get into? If they're not on youtube or some other video hosting site, they're extremely cheap to buy a monthly show and following the company's website to understand the angles. And if that's not doing it for you, get the WWE Network, all the old school content you can want, with so much more. And if neither of those options satisfy you, maybe you've outgrown wrestling, and that's fine, but don't try and ruin it for us.
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mrassbillygunn
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Post by mrassbillygunn on May 30, 2014 11:12:18 GMT -5
Best Era Ever.
Until something better comes along, then sorry, but im staying in the past and there aint a damn thing you can do about it, pal.
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jakksking1
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Post by jakksking1 on May 30, 2014 12:55:21 GMT -5
While it seems like The Undertaker was over with the audience, look how long it took him to become the WWF Champion. A year and five days from Survivor Series 1990 to Survivor Series 1991. Completely irrelevant. I'm guessing you weren't watching at the time. In that era of wrestling, not everyone got the belt straight away -- plenty of top wrestlers didn't get it at all. Undertaker was nothing like the Ringmaster. Agree with this 100 percent. 1 year in 1991 wrestling is about 2 weeks in the current wrestling world. Everything was slowly drawn out and they pushed Taker almost immediately. That's probably the quickest they ever put the strap on anyone up until that point
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mrassbillygunn
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Post by mrassbillygunn on May 30, 2014 13:11:54 GMT -5
Completely irrelevant. I'm guessing you weren't watching at the time. In that era of wrestling, not everyone got the belt straight away -- plenty of top wrestlers didn't get it at all. Undertaker was nothing like the Ringmaster. Agree with this 100 percent. 1 year in 1991 wrestling is about 2 weeks in the current wrestling world. Everything was slowly drawn out and they pushed Taker almost immediately. That's probably the quickest they ever put the strap on anyone up until that point You're both missing the point. The Undertaker didnt need the belt. For the length of time he has spent with WWE i think he won the belt maybe 5 or 6 times. He just didnt need it, there was nothing to be gained by having him as champ.
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Post by Brad on May 30, 2014 13:15:28 GMT -5
Best Era Ever. Until something better comes along, then sorry, but im staying in the past and there aint a damn thing you can do about it, pal. I don't think anyone will deny that being a great promo.
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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on May 30, 2014 13:19:03 GMT -5
While it seems like The Undertaker was over with the audience, look how long it took him to become the WWF Champion. A year and five days from Survivor Series 1990 to Survivor Series 1991. Completely irrelevant. I'm guessing you weren't watching at the time. In that era of wrestling, not everyone got the belt straight away -- plenty of top wrestlers didn't get it at all. Undertaker was nothing like the Ringmaster. I was born into being a wrestling fan. My parents grew up watching guys like Pedro Morales and Bruno Sammartino in the ring. Even my brother too was born into being a wrestling fan. I will not be afraid to admit (and I couldn't care less what people think) I was born when Macho Man had his first reign as the WWF Champion. Going back to the original post yet again, one of many reasons why people fondly remember the Attitude Era is because that was when the product was white hot. Older fans feel the same about the 80's with the Rock 'n Wrestling Era. I will state this again, no era in wrestling is flawless. The '80's and 90's had their fair share of flaws. Even today has it's fair share of flaws. If you really want to look at today's product, all the blame can be place on not only creative but also Vince McMahon as well. I look at NXT as how the WWE would be when Triple H & Stephanie McMahon takes over full day-to-day operations. I know several people who are stuck in the Attitude Era outside of here. They keep on stating that they should bring back Wrestler A back and lets see a current guy versus Wrestler E. I recall listening to Live Audio Wrestling in June of 2005. A caller made a suggestion that they should bring back DX and the nWo. Yeah, they brought back DX but it lacked the Attitude they once had. What many, many fans fail to realize that once it is done, you can't keep it contained and expect it to have an unlimited shelf life. Like the food items we buy, even wrestling too is not immune from expiration dates. Each era in wrestling has a very limited shelf life. The external environmental forces dictate how the wrestling industry is. The Attitude Era made sense for the time period. It was all about pushing the envelope and creating shock value. I will even state the Attitude Era hurted wrestling. The late'90's deviated from what wrestling was all about. The top tier guys became over exposed and the championship themselves became a hot potato. When I saw the Attitude Era Blu-ray, I was like how in the **** did I enjoy this as a kid? Of course, I ate up everything the WWF did. Hell, if it was drawing in more eyeballs, any smart promoter will take advantage of that. That is what Vince McMahon did. Do you think Vince McMahon wanted to change his product from the New Generation Era to the Attitude Era? No, he was being forced to changed with the time and change his product. Those changes are still felt today. I have more to say but I am ending it here. Edie: jakksking1, The Undertaker's first reign as the WWF Champion was merely a vehicle to install controversy, vacate the WWF Championship, and have Ric Flair look strong by lasting 59 minutes in the 1992 Royal Rumble match.
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Post by Jonathan Karate on May 30, 2014 13:26:48 GMT -5
While it seems like The Undertaker was over with the audience, look how long it took him to become the WWF Champion. A year and five days from Survivor Series 1990 to Survivor Series 1991. Completely irrelevant. I'm guessing you weren't watching at the time. In that era of wrestling, not everyone got the belt straight away -- plenty of top wrestlers didn't get it at all. Undertaker was nothing like the Ringmaster. Well Taker and Hogan are certainly the only two guys I can think of that won the belt relatively quickly back then. And Hogan wasn't even on his first tenure in the company.
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