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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 20:10:52 GMT -5
So for those of you who, like me, listen to podcasts from guys like Steve Austin, Jim Ross and Chris Jericho know that both Austin and Ross have mentioned the dilemma of Bray Wyatt's heel character on several occasions. Austin and Ross have both stated that they are confused as to whether or not Bray Wyatt is a heel or face. They seem to keep the old-school way of thinking that the heel must always cheat and do everything and anything possible to not get a positive reaction from the crowd. I think it really bothers both of them how Bray Wyatt gets the crowd to sing-along and he panders to them sometimes for a reaction. I understand where they are coming from that it's not your typical heel tactic but for his character I think it makes perfect sense.
Bray Wyatt is meant to be a cult leader character. Why wouldn't he try to get the audience behind him and eventually make them follow his cause? Bray Wyatt is not your typical character and certainly not your typical heel either. I am unsure as to why Austin and Ross are both refusing to accept something different from the norm as they both have a good mind for the business. To me, it's plain as day that although Wyatt is a heel he is still trying to grow and add members to his cause.
How do you guys feel about this? Is Bray Wyatt a poorly booked heel or a unique one? Should he be cheating and ignoring the crowd or continue to "pander" to them for reactions to his cause?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 20:14:02 GMT -5
As Mick Foley once said about the "Heel has to cheat" mentality,
"Apollo Creed wasn't a heel because he cheated. He was a heel because he was the best and he knew it."
"Golliath in David and Golliath wasn't a heel because he cheated, he was a heel because he was so big"
Basically, Bray could be considered a tweener or a unique heel, and not follow the old "Has to cheat" mentality because it never really made sense anyway.
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Post by Yambag Jones on Oct 2, 2014 20:33:09 GMT -5
I think he needs a definitive run as a heel before being morally ambiguous. Him not being face or heel has put him in the current spot he's in. That doesn't mean he has to cheat to win necessarily though.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 21:01:26 GMT -5
He definitely doesn't need to cheat to win, but I don't think he's good enough in the ring to go much further up the card he's at now.
In a more managerial, part time wrestler role? He could be fantastic.
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Post by IRS on Oct 2, 2014 21:06:22 GMT -5
He should be more of a tweener. That's the problem with WWE today, everyone HAS to be a clear cut heel or face - there's no room for a tweener or anti-hero anymore, or so it seems. Of course, with WWE supposedly splitting The Wyatts apart now, and possibly turning Bray face, I have no idea what the  will happen with him. It's headed right towards another case of dropping the ball with someone, majorly dropping the ball. |
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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on Oct 2, 2014 21:18:19 GMT -5
There is a huge disconnect with Bray Wyatt. Look at how he was booked on NXT and on the main roster. They played to his strengths on NXT and somewhat exposed his weaknesses on the main roster. It is clear people want to get behind him but the WWE continues to book him as a heel. Jim Ross said it best, it is hard to be a heel when there isn't any rules to break. That is one of the faults Bray Wyatt has. At this juncture, the WWE really needs to keep him off, reevaluate his character and fix what is broken.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 21:19:27 GMT -5
i always thought he was a heel.. just that the fans love him.
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Post by Happy Pizza on Oct 2, 2014 21:29:50 GMT -5
I don't consider it pandering when his gimmick is that of a cult leader. The fans don't need to boo him because he brainwashes your fans into booing you instead. Psychological warfare could easily be considered a form of cheating, and it plays right into the modern wrestling fan. It's hard to have easily defined good guys and bad guys when half the audience will boo the faces just because it's the cool thing to do.
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Tyler Black
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the former #1 Tyler Black fan/Tyler F'n Black
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Post by Tyler Black on Oct 2, 2014 22:11:37 GMT -5
Here's the thing and I'm going to try to explain this the best I can even tho one Paul E Dangerously could explain it better. One of the most successful heel gimmicks of all time was 1995-1999 Raven. The gimmick can draw parallels to Brays character of a cult leader (nest/flock/Wyatt family) both were average in the ring far above average on the mic. For anyone that listens to heymans podcast "the beauty of the raven character was that this guy should have been the ultimate baby face. His gimmick of "I come from a broken home, I wasn't showed any love as a child" was written directly for a baby face. But it was the way Raven went about and handled the character and that he never broke character so much so even the "smart" Philly crowd hated his guts. You never heard a cheer for raven (in Ecw at least). Wyatt is so earily similar to me I don't see how anyone could perceive him as a baby face because he panders to the crowd. Is that not what a cult leader does? Was Charles Manson not a "heel" because he tried to get people to follow him? I say keep bray heel maybe be a little more violent If he can but keep everything else the same and were looking at one of the greatest characters in the last 30 years
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 22:59:12 GMT -5
I believe he is heel as his intentions have always come from evilness. Pretty simple.
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Post by Mr. McCluer on Oct 2, 2014 23:12:36 GMT -5
Here's the thing and I'm going to try to explain this the best I can even tho one Paul E Dangerously could explain it better. One of the most successful heel gimmicks of all time was 1995-1999 Raven. The gimmick can draw parallels to Brays character of a cult leader (nest/flock/Wyatt family) both were average in the ring far above average on the mic. For anyone that listens to heymans podcast "the beauty of the raven character was that this guy should have been the ultimate baby face. His gimmick of "I come from a broken home, I wasn't showed any love as a child" was written directly for a baby face. But it was the way Raven went about and handled the character and that he never broke character so much so even the "smart" Philly crowd hated his guts. You never heard a cheer for raven (in Ecw at least). Wyatt is so earily similar to me I don't see how anyone could perceive him as a baby face because he panders to the crowd. Is that not what a cult leader does? Was Charles Manson not a "heel" because he tried to get people to follow him? I say keep bray heel maybe be a little more violent If he can but keep everything else the same and were looking at one of the greatest characters in the last 30 years THIS. |
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Post by rustyy on Oct 2, 2014 23:41:23 GMT -5
Austin and Ross' theories are why heels don't get over anymore, they have the same dated mentality as Vince. People want something fresh, they want someone who is actually bad. The only person that gets real heat is Cena, and that's because people are tired of him. Heels don't get heat anymore because the babyfaces suck and are all exactly the same. Sheamus, Cena, Usos, Big Show, Henry, ugh it's terrible.
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Post by ~ Cymru ~ on Oct 3, 2014 1:36:24 GMT -5
I dont think there's much of a call for defining a character as "heel" or "face" anymore not since so many heels get cheered and faces boo'ed. Obviously you'll always have good and bad guys but I think theres a lot less of a focus on it now.
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Post by Johnny Wrestling on Oct 3, 2014 1:42:28 GMT -5
Bray Wyatt's character is just on a whole different level. I agree with some of what has been said already. Take also the late Eddie Guerrero to add to that list of examples: "I lie, I cheat, I steal". He could play either, a face or a heel with those same attributes, yet the way he used them was what defined his character.
Bray Wyatt, sadly, is too far ahead of everyone else in terms of character and most of the audience cannot understand what he is all about because they are not used to him. Hopefully one day they will, and hopefully WWE doesn't screw him.
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Post by RybackV1 on Oct 3, 2014 2:21:53 GMT -5
Bray is a ing awesome heel. Not sure how anyone could think he is a babyface. When has he ever feuded with a heel? Bryan, Cena, Jericho, have been his top feuds. Exactly like said in the OP. He's supposed to be a cult leader. Why WOULDNT he try to "sway the masses" and get people on his side. The fact that it's working makes him Even more badass |
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Post by rustyy on Oct 3, 2014 4:02:37 GMT -5
Bray Wyatt's character is just on a whole different level. I agree with some of what has been said already. Take also the late Eddie Guerrero to add to that list of examples: "I lie, I cheat, I steal". He could play either, a face or a heel with those same attributes, yet the way he used them was what defined his character. Bray Wyatt, sadly, is too far ahead of everyone else in terms of character and most of the audience cannot understand what he is all about because they are not used to him. Hopefully one day they will, and hopefully WWE doesn't screw him. Too late. He's been screwed ever since Cena squashed him after losing to Lesnar. There is now talk of disbanding the family, and with that goes his chance of ever becoming world champion. |
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Post by Next Man’s Gamechanger on Oct 3, 2014 5:39:52 GMT -5
Bray Wyatt is basically a bad wrestling character -- he very rarely, if ever, gets anyone invested about the outcome of his matches. He doesn't seem to need to win or to care if he loses, so nobody else does either (except people obsessed with "pushes" and "burials").
Very well performed and a cool concept, but in execution, it doesn't work so well for building stories where we give a damn about who wins.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 6:48:57 GMT -5
Austin and Ross' theories are why heels don't get over anymore, they have the same dated mentality as Vince. People want something fresh, they want someone who is actually bad. The only person that gets real heat is Cena, and that's because people are tired of him. Heels don't get heat anymore because the babyfaces suck and are all exactly the same. Sheamus, Cena, Usos, Big Show, Henry, ugh it's terrible. This is just my opinion, but I feel the whole 'heels don't get booed because the babyfaces aren't good' is a bit of a dated mentality in itself. Even if he had a bunch of Jesuses and Devils walking around as our faces and heels, that's not gonna stop people from liking and hating who they want, no matter what side of the fence they're on. If we got someone who was actually bad, everyone would love and appreciate him because he was so good at it. Just look at Cena, unarguably the biggest babyface we've had for awhile. He's the prototypical babyface, but people still hate him. Look at Daniel Bryan, also one of the biggest babyfaces we've had for awhile, but even then some people still didn't like him. The opposite would be true even if Bray Wyatt was unarguably the biggest heel we've had for awhile, he could go around and punt babies and eat cats and shove old ladies down and tell girls they're ugly, but people would still appreciate him and still like him. Look at Miz. There's not a damn thing about him that's redeemable as a heel, but a lot of people still like him. People don't get heat anymore because we know it's all bull****. If someone does something grotesquely bad or is just an annoying little prick (looking at Miz on that one), people are gonna appreciate how good they were in doing it. There's no putting the genie back in the bottle with this, you know. Look at who the three biggest wrestling heels are nowadays, John Cena, Triple H, and Dixie Carter. Almost none of that is from what they did on TV or what they did to make them heels, it's all because of assumptions people made about who they are and they made their own judgements. Cena buries people, Triple H married to get his push, Dixie killed TNA. No matter what they did with them on TV and no matter how hard they tried to make them the second coming of Dale Earnhardt or something, people are still gonna hate them. It has nothing to do with what's pushed on TV anymore, it has nothing to do with how good the babyfaces or how bad the heels are anymore, it comes down to how people feel and the judgements they make, and there's no way WWE can ever control that no matter how hard they tried to make someone a heel or how hard they tried to make someone a babyface. |
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havoc7179
Main Eventer
What is this?
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Post by havoc7179 on Oct 3, 2014 8:39:07 GMT -5
I agree with Bray needing a definitive heel or face run, but the notion that you need to cheat to be a heel is outdated.
Notable Examples:
Eddie Guerrero, who didn't love his cheating tactics where he'd throw his opponent a chair and lie down as the referee was coming to?
Ric Flair: Low blows and eye rakes don't scream face moves.
Shield: 3 on 1 attacks of virtually everybody on the roster at one point (heel and face).
Tajiri: Locking in and holding a submission hold while the opponent is on the ropes is clearly a dirty move and against the rules as is the mist, but the fans loved it.
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Post by greenjack1992 on Oct 3, 2014 8:41:32 GMT -5
If they want him to be a heel, he doesn't have to be the cowardly cheating heel. He can just be horrid and get over that way.
Why not have him come out and interrupt the national anthem or threaten the most over face diva on the roster?
Why not have him come out and attack whoever the crowd is cheering the most (and get the better of the encounter)?
Austin of all people should know a thing or two about having an ambiguous character. He was a nasty heel who did nothing differently when he became the most over face in the history of the industry.
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