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Post by Overnight Sensation on Jun 30, 2015 11:41:36 GMT -5
It's okay to be wrong pal, and that's what you are right now. Thanks for completely ignoring all of my points and just calling my opinion "wrong," appreciate it. Cena matches are spotfests? I bet you watch Ricochet matches don't you?
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CrazyCanuck
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Post by CrazyCanuck on Jun 30, 2015 11:45:24 GMT -5
Thanks for completely ignoring all of my points and just calling my opinion "wrong," appreciate it. Cena matches are spotfests? I bet you watch Ricochet matches don't you? Ricochet is an extremely athletic human being capable of pulling off amazing stunts. It's totally different.
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Post by k5 on Jun 30, 2015 11:50:14 GMT -5
To say that Cena's opponents carry him through every match isn't just ridiculous, it's flat out moronic. show me a match where cena delivers with a less than stellar opponent. and if you say the umaga match i'll just lol... anyone could be booked into his matches and look good. if we lived in an era where the agents don't literally manipulate the matches to make it appear certain ways i'm pretty sure cena could never have kept his top spot. i can say from personal taste that the only matches of cena's i'd be looking up for replay value down the road is his encounters with cm punk. but i like ziggler, and some people don't on this forum. i don't like sheamus, but some people do on this forum. i think cena is terrible, but some people don't on this forum. i don't see why any of us have to be morons for having our own opinions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 11:53:27 GMT -5
To say that Cena's opponents carry him through every match isn't just ridiculous, it's flat out moronic. i actually think it's quite the opposite. show me a match where cena delivers with a less than stellar opponent. and if you say the umaga match i'll just lol... anyone could be booked into his matches and look good. if we lived in an era where the agents don't literally manipulate the matches to make it appear certain ways i'm pretty sure cena could never have kept his top spot. i can say from personal taste that the only matches of cena's i'd be looking up for replay value down the road is his encounters with cm punk. vs Green as grass Sheamus from TLC 09 vs Unmotivated Batista from WM XXVI vs Any match vs hideously out of shape JBL
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 11:55:13 GMT -5
It's okay to be wrong pal, and that's what you are right now. Thanks for completely ignoring all of my points and just calling my opinion "wrong," appreciate it. Calling John Cena a bad wrestler isn't an opinion. Saying you don't enjoy his work is an opinion.
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Post by k5 on Jun 30, 2015 12:09:04 GMT -5
i actually think it's quite the opposite. show me a match where cena delivers with a less than stellar opponent. and if you say the umaga match i'll just lol... anyone could be booked into his matches and look good. if we lived in an era where the agents don't literally manipulate the matches to make it appear certain ways i'm pretty sure cena could never have kept his top spot. i can say from personal taste that the only matches of cena's i'd be looking up for replay value down the road is his encounters with cm punk. vs Green as grass Sheamus from TLC 09 vs Unmotivated Batista from WM XXVI vs Any match vs hideously out of shape JBL i can only speak on the sheamus match as i did my best to avoid any of those others you mentioned... there was nothing great about that match imo. it wasn't terrible by any means, but if that's what you're going to use as an example that cena can pull out great matches when the other dude isn't a top tier performer than this is a failure on your part. it had the typical psychology of 'guy gets damage on cena, but cena manages to fight through' that 99% of cena's encounters have, the difference being no notable big moments in this match sans the finish. most of it was just power moves and brawling. he did, as ever, make good use of the table just as he uses kick outs to build suspense. but that's a cena match 101 for you. john cena is simply too hulk hogan-esque for an audience that is smarter than that at this point and wants more. he's an insult to the viewer's intelligence.
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CrazyCanuck
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Post by CrazyCanuck on Jun 30, 2015 12:11:23 GMT -5
Thanks for completely ignoring all of my points and just calling my opinion "wrong," appreciate it. Calling John Cena a bad wrestler isn't an opinion. Saying you don't enjoy his work is an opinion. Some people think he is a good wrestler, i think he is a bad wrestler. Good/bad are opinionated my friend.
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Post by Overnight Sensation on Jun 30, 2015 12:34:44 GMT -5
Cena matches are spotfests? I bet you watch Ricochet matches don't you? Ricochet is an extremely athletic human being capable of pulling off amazing stunts. It's totally different. Stunts and spots are literally the exact same thing, just worded different ways....
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CrazyCanuck
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Post by CrazyCanuck on Jun 30, 2015 12:40:15 GMT -5
Ricochet is an extremely athletic human being capable of pulling off amazing stunts. It's totally different. Stunts and spots are literally the exact same thing, just worded different ways.... Cena can't do the things Ricochet is capable of doing. Spots are used in ricochets matches to accentuate his athleticism. Spots are used in Cena's matches to try and make the match good. In my honest and humble opinion, there is absolutely no comparison that can be made between Ricochets matches and Cena's.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jun 30, 2015 12:42:50 GMT -5
Cena has been great for years. His United States Championship run has catapulted him into at least the top five performers in the world right now. Jay Lethal Antonio Cesaro Austin Aries Jay Brisco Roderick Strong Seth Rollins & Zack Sabre Jr. Brock Lesnar Randy Orton all say Hello.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 12:46:36 GMT -5
His open challenge matches and the stuff with Owens have been the best parts of RAW all year to me. If Cena wasn't good the matches wouldn't be as good as they are. Stick those guys against Kane and do you think the matches would be nearly as good? Cena can go.
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Jun 30, 2015 12:50:41 GMT -5
Cena has been great for years. His United States Championship run has catapulted him into at least the top five performers in the world right now. Jay Lethal Antonio Cesaro Austin Aries Jay Brisco Roderick Strong Seth Rollins & Zack Sabre Jr. Brock Lesnar Randy Orton all say Hello. Currently, I'd put him ahead of Orton, Aries, Cesaro, Jay Briscoe, and Brock (mainly because he doesn't work often).
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CrazyCanuck
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Post by CrazyCanuck on Jun 30, 2015 12:51:12 GMT -5
His open challenge matches and the stuff with Owens have been the best parts of RAW all year to me. If Cena wasn't good the matches wouldn't be as good as they are. Stick those guys against Kane and do you think the matches would be nearly as good? Cena can go. I respect that. But my counter argument would be that if you put Kane in a match with the same structure as Cenas, people would also think it was a good match.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 13:45:00 GMT -5
His open challenge matches and the stuff with Owens have been the best parts of RAW all year to me. If Cena wasn't good the matches wouldn't be as good as they are. Stick those guys against Kane and do you think the matches would be nearly as good? Cena can go. I respect that. But my counter argument would be that if you put Kane in a match with the same structure as Cenas, people would also think it was a good match. I don't think I can agree with that. Kane can't move like Cena.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jun 30, 2015 14:09:07 GMT -5
Jay Lethal Antonio Cesaro Austin Aries Jay Brisco Roderick Strong Seth Rollins & Zack Sabre Jr. Brock Lesnar Randy Orton all say Hello. Currently, I'd put him ahead of Orton, Aries, Cesaro, Jay Briscoe, and Brock (mainly because he doesn't work often). I am not saying John has been doing badly as of late. In fact, he has helped Owens win me over. However, the men I listed have demonstrated over their careers & general matches over the course of this decade, that they are simply better outright, than John Cena. Aries & Cesaro are just too good for their own good, in that they make most of their matches look too easy. I didn't even want to include Jay Brisco, but he's simply been too impressive as ROH World Champion to ignore. Even in defeat, he's still their top name. Here's one system I have found to be helpful in determining the talent of wrestlers, when you compare them head to head. Let's say John Cena & Daniel each wrestled 302 times in 2013. We compare their first matches, second matches, & repeat the process until we determine who won the most match to match comparisons. We judge each match on how well it achieved the desired objective. The traditional objective of a wrestling match is to portray legitimacy, so we use that as our base. After that, we look at the desired task of the match, such a squash, elevate the opponent, progress a story, & the other things good wrestlers & workers need to be able to do. In a match for match comparison, Daniel would win on consistency, but John would make closer than many would believe, due to his strengths in the other areas mentioned.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 14:20:50 GMT -5
It's good Cena is finally getting some love! He's always been a hell of a wrestler, it's just harder to shine through when you're limited to your signature 5 moves
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 14:34:56 GMT -5
John Cena is good. Not great.
Nothing he does is great or exceptional. However, he can and has had great matches. The match with Kevin Owens at Elimination Chamber is my pick for MOTY so far. That being said, a lot of the stuff he does (especially the STF) looks absolutely awful which is inexcusable as it's been brought to his attention yet he ignores it completely.
I said it before but he can have 1,000 good-to-great matches and it won't make him or his character any less stale.
His ring work has really never been the issue with me. It's always been passable. The issue is his stale character.
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Post by MADNESS_NH_97 on Jun 30, 2015 14:46:38 GMT -5
One of the Best Wrestlers in the World? For the past 10 Years? So he is supposed to be as good as: Daniel Bryan/Bryan Danielson, CM Punk, Cesaro/Claudio Castagnoli, Sami Zayn/El Generico, Neville/PAC, Hideo Itami/KENTA, Finn Bálor/Prince Devitt, Seth Rollins/Tyler Black, Shinsuke Nakamura, Kazuchika Okada, Hiroshi Tanahashi, Kota Ibushi, AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Austin Aries, Kevin Owens/Steen, Nigel McGuiness, Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, Jushin Thunder Liger, Ultimo Dragon, Great Muta, Shawn Michaels Kenta Kobashi, Mitsuharu Misawa, Chris Benoit etc etc? For the last 10 Years he is supposed to be as good as these guys? And i am sure there are more Wrestlers that could get added to that list so... If anyone wants to feel free to add them. Sure he can be good with the right opponent that carries him trough the Matches but a guy that calls the spots so loud, botches many of the new Moves he tries to do and has a few horrible versions of these Moves(for example his Parody of the STF) are some reasons for him NOT beeing one of the Best Wrestlers in the World! It takes 2 to tango homie. And Cena does it with the best of them. Lol at the fact you listed Ultimo Dragon as one of the best wrestlers of the past 10 years. Half those guys you listed, Cena has torn it up with. And you know what the common theme among them is? They all admit Cena is the man and criminally underrated in the ring. Get off your IWC/Strong Style high horse and stop hating on a guy who kills it every week. "And Cena does it with the best of them" YES ! With the BEST of THEM but guess what? Name me one Potential 5 Star Match or Match Of The Year Cena had with guys like Orton, Batista, Sheamus etc etc. I am sure these Matches haven't been THAT great... And NO i am not talking about Gimmick Matches! I am talking about NORMAL 1 on 1 WRESTLING Matches. And sure they said these positive things about him... But on the other hand. Has there ever been anyone in the WWE that said anything negative about Cena? And i know Ultimo Dragon is not in his prime anymore but that does not mean he is less talented! Oh and i get of my "INTERNET WRESTLING COMMUNITY" High Horse if you STOP being active in the INTERNET on sites that are about WRESTLING where you can be part of a COMMUNITY that most of the times discusses about WRESTLING until you learn how stupid that "argument" actually is. Maybe you can do that with the typical Cena hater that has 0 Respect for the Guy and can't admit that Cena has ever had a good Match BUT i am not one of these Guys! And did you mean with "Strong Style high horse" ? Do you have a problem with me acknowledging how good some of the Japanese Wrestlers are? EDIT: Oh and i don't "HATE" Cena. I hate the way he gets used most of the time and how some of his opponents end up after feuding with him! And i did not say that he completly sucks in the Ring! I just said he is not ONE of THE BEST in THE WORLD that's it!
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Jun 30, 2015 14:53:44 GMT -5
It takes 2 to tango homie. And Cena does it with the best of them. Lol at the fact you listed Ultimo Dragon as one of the best wrestlers of the past 10 years. Half those guys you listed, Cena has torn it up with. And you know what the common theme among them is? They all admit Cena is the man and criminally underrated in the ring. Get off your IWC/Strong Style high horse and stop hating on a guy who kills it every week. "And Cena does it with the best of them" YES ! With the BEST of THEM but guess what? Name me one Potential 5 Star Match or Match Of The Year Cena had with guys like Orton, Batista, Sheamus etc etc. I am sure these Matches haven't been THAT great... And NO i am not talking about Gimmick Matches! I am talking about NORMAL 1 on 1 WRESTLING Matches. To be fair, can you name any MOTY candidates that anyone on your list had with the likes of Orton, Batista or Sheamus?
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Post by Planktung on Jun 30, 2015 14:57:56 GMT -5
It takes 2 to tango homie. And Cena does it with the best of them. Lol at the fact you listed Ultimo Dragon as one of the best wrestlers of the past 10 years. Half those guys you listed, Cena has torn it up with. And you know what the common theme among them is? They all admit Cena is the man and criminally underrated in the ring. Get off your IWC/Strong Style high horse and stop hating on a guy who kills it every week. "And Cena does it with the best of them" YES ! With the BEST of THEM but guess what? Name me one Potential 5 Star Match or Match Of The Year Cena had with guys like Orton, Batista, Sheamus etc etc. I am sure these Matches haven't been THAT great... And NO i am not talking about Gimmick Matches! I am talking about NORMAL 1 on 1 WRESTLING Matches. And sure they said these positive things about him... But on the other hand. Has there ever been anyone in the WWE that said anything negative about Cena? And i know Ultimo Dragon is not in his prime anymore but that does not mean he is less talented! Oh and i get of my "INTERNET WRESTLING COMMUNITY" High Horse if you STOP being active in the INTERNET on sites that are about WRESTLING where you can be part of a COMMUNITY that most of the times discusses about WRESTLING until you learn how stupid that "argument" actually is. Maybe you can do that with the typical Cena hater that has 0 Respect for the Guy and can't admit that Cena has ever had a good Match BUT i am not one of these Guys! And did you mean with "Strong Style high horse" ? Do you have a problem with me acknowledging how good some of the Japanese Wrestlers are? EDIT: Oh and i don't "HATE" Cena. I hate the way he gets used most of the time and how some of his opponents end up after feuding with him! And i did not say that he completly sucks in the Ring! I just said he is not ONE of THE BEST in THE WORLD that's it!
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