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Post by 0,Y on Aug 28, 2015 11:48:24 GMT -5
0,Y I wont quote you since your last post was pretty long, but what you're saying isnt true. The people have more guns now then they did in 1993. However, gun violence is down nearly 50% of what it was then. The stats have already been posted in this thread. Now you said you were from German and thats cool, its one of the few places Id love to visit one day...however being German you should know all to well that taking guns/rights away from individuals and leaving the gov't in charge with all of the power....isn't a good thing. I believe we had to help settling something for you all back in the 40s cause of that. The foundation of our country is on freedom and rights and we're always willing to fight for that. Whether its with the British, Nazi-Germany or a Middle Eastern terrorist group. Hell we even fought with each other over freedom and individual rights (not slavery). Well I never denied that, did I? My point still stands. If you compare the number of deaths caused by firearms in the US to any other modern democracy (UK, Germany, Italy, France, Japan, the list goes on...) there's no denying that this is a direct consequence of US gun laws. And the comparison of taking away the right to bear arms to what happened in Germany from 1933 onwards is a little over the top. I get that freedom and rights are important. Personally I'd put freedom over safety any day of the week (for example when it comes to the NSA violating personal rights left and right) and I realize that taking away the right to own guns could be the start of the government taking away even more constitutional rights but comparing that to Hitler and the NSDAP is beyond ridiculous. Oh and I'm not sure whether you're referring to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars or to ISIS so I'm not gonna argue on that even though I'd probably disagree. As I've said before fixing the problem nowadays is nearly impossible but let's say hypothetically that taking away the right to bear arms would reduce the number of deaths from 10,000+ to 200. Wouldn't that be a small price to pay in order to save many innocent lives?
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Post by Chip on Aug 28, 2015 13:14:09 GMT -5
guns r bad mmmkay
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nWo_Sentinel
Superstar
Joined on: Feb 21, 2009 20:38:16 GMT -5
Posts: 538
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Post by nWo_Sentinel on Aug 28, 2015 14:02:01 GMT -5
0,Y I wont quote you since your last post was pretty long, but what you're saying isnt true. The people have more guns now then they did in 1993. However, gun violence is down nearly 50% of what it was then. The stats have already been posted in this thread. Now you said you were from German and thats cool, its one of the few places Id love to visit one day...however being German you should know all to well that taking guns/rights away from individuals and leaving the gov't in charge with all of the power....isn't a good thing. I believe we had to help settling something for you all back in the 40s cause of that. The foundation of our country is on freedom and rights and we're always willing to fight for that. Whether its with the British, Nazi-Germany or a Middle Eastern terrorist group. Hell we even fought with each other over freedom and individual rights (not slavery). We could state facts after facts and it wont get thru...The FACT that he wont admit that America is NOT a democracy is evidence of this.
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Post by Nivro™ on Aug 28, 2015 14:22:39 GMT -5
0,Y I wont quote you since your last post was pretty long, but what you're saying isnt true. The people have more guns now then they did in 1993. However, gun violence is down nearly 50% of what it was then. The stats have already been posted in this thread. Now you said you were from German and thats cool, its one of the few places Id love to visit one day...however being German you should know all to well that taking guns/rights away from individuals and leaving the gov't in charge with all of the power....isn't a good thing. I believe we had to help settling something for you all back in the 40s cause of that. The foundation of our country is on freedom and rights and we're always willing to fight for that. Whether its with the British, Nazi-Germany or a Middle Eastern terrorist group. Hell we even fought with each other over freedom and individual rights (not slavery). We could state facts after facts and it wont get thru...The FACT that he wont admit that America is NOT a democracy is evidence of this. True. While a Democracy & a Republic are very very similar, so much to the point that many people that dont know a lot about the US Gov't would think it was a Democracy. It is a Republic. The main difference is exactly what we're debating about in this thread inalienable rights to individuals.
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Post by Nivro™ on Aug 28, 2015 14:31:46 GMT -5
0,Y I wont quote you since your last post was pretty long, but what you're saying isnt true. The people have more guns now then they did in 1993. However, gun violence is down nearly 50% of what it was then. The stats have already been posted in this thread. Now you said you were from German and thats cool, its one of the few places Id love to visit one day...however being German you should know all to well that taking guns/rights away from individuals and leaving the gov't in charge with all of the power....isn't a good thing. I believe we had to help settling something for you all back in the 40s cause of that. The foundation of our country is on freedom and rights and we're always willing to fight for that. Whether its with the British, Nazi-Germany or a Middle Eastern terrorist group. Hell we even fought with each other over freedom and individual rights (not slavery). Well I never denied that, did I? My point still stands. If you compare the number of deaths caused by firearms in the US to any other modern democracy (UK, Germany, Italy, France, Japan, the list goes on...) there's no denying that this is a direct consequence of US gun laws. And the comparison of taking away the right to bear arms to what happened in Germany from 1933 onwards is a little over the top. I get that freedom and rights are important. Personally I'd put freedom over safety any day of the week (for example when it comes to the NSA violating personal rights left and right) and I realize that taking away the right to own guns could be the start of the government taking away even more constitutional rights but comparing that to Hitler and the NSDAP is beyond ridiculous. Oh and I'm not sure whether you're referring to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars or to ISIS so I'm not gonna argue on that even though I'd probably disagree. As I've said before fixing the problem nowadays is nearly impossible but let's say hypothetically that taking away the right to bear arms would reduce the number of deaths from 10,000+ to 200. Wouldn't that be a small price to pay in order to save many innocent lives?No, because hypothetically speaking, if the Gov't came out today and said "Everyone needs to turn their guns in or else..." the only people who would turn their guns in are law biding citizens who don't commit gun crimes. Nut jobs like the Charleston shooter, Roanoke shooter etc would still find ways to get their hands on guns and those that couldnt would simply go to Lowes buy a few boxes of nails, grab a crockpot at Walmart and get on the internet and build a mini bomb just like we saw at the Boston Marathon bombing. Are we going to suggest banning nails, crockpots and the freedom to explore the internet as well, just to save a few lives? I personally dont own a gun but I make a damn good pot roast in my crock pot and if they try to come take it from me you damn well bet Ill buy a gun to defend it!
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Deleted
Joined on: Jun 30, 2024 22:00:03 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 19:08:10 GMT -5
Give the guns to the government and we get Nazi Germany. I get it now.
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Post by Nivro™ on Aug 28, 2015 19:55:10 GMT -5
The likelihood of getting Nazi Germany is low. The point is that the Gov't shouldnt be in control. We are a nation "of the people, for the people and by the people." Not the other way around.
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Post by theMOESIAH on Aug 29, 2015 0:34:52 GMT -5
Give the guns to the government and we get Nazi Germany. I get it now. Hitler didn't take away anyone's guns, except probably from the Jewish population. He actually encouraged gun ownership and called it "a man's sport."
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Post by Colter on Aug 29, 2015 0:41:10 GMT -5
How I feel, summed up by Jim Jeffries:
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Post by 0,Y on Aug 29, 2015 2:32:25 GMT -5
Well I never denied that, did I? My point still stands. If you compare the number of deaths caused by firearms in the US to any other modern democracy (UK, Germany, Italy, France, Japan, the list goes on...) there's no denying that this is a direct consequence of US gun laws. And the comparison of taking away the right to bear arms to what happened in Germany from 1933 onwards is a little over the top. I get that freedom and rights are important. Personally I'd put freedom over safety any day of the week (for example when it comes to the NSA violating personal rights left and right) and I realize that taking away the right to own guns could be the start of the government taking away even more constitutional rights but comparing that to Hitler and the NSDAP is beyond ridiculous. Oh and I'm not sure whether you're referring to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars or to ISIS so I'm not gonna argue on that even though I'd probably disagree. As I've said before fixing the problem nowadays is nearly impossible but let's say hypothetically that taking away the right to bear arms would reduce the number of deaths from 10,000+ to 200. Wouldn't that be a small price to pay in order to save many innocent lives?No, because hypothetically speaking, if the Gov't came out today and said "Everyone needs to turn their guns in or else..." the only people who would turn their guns in are law biding citizens who don't commit gun crimes. Nut jobs like the Charleston shooter, Roanoke shooter etc would still find ways to get their hands on guns and those that couldnt would simply go to Lowes buy a few boxes of nails, grab a crockpot at Walmart and get on the internet and build a mini bomb just like we saw at the Boston Marathon bombing. Are we going to suggest banning nails, crockpots and the freedom to explore the internet as well, just to save a few lives? I personally dont own a gun but I make a damn good pot roast in my crock pot and if they try to come take it from me you damn well bet Ill buy a gun to defend it!
Thanks for ignoring two thirds of my post.
Then explain to me why there are almost no massacres involving nail bombs, crockpots and other stuff in other democracies. You act like taking away the right to own guns would turn the USA into a dictatorship oppressing the people. And also this (for a lack of a better word) hatred towards the evil government: Are you this passionate when the NSA and government violate the personal rights of billions of people around the world every second? Do you use Google, Facebook, Apple products and so on? But God forbid somebody wants to take away guns in order to reduce the amount of innocent people dieing. Billions of rights getting violated and nobody gives a , taking away the right to bear arms in order to actually save lives and you and many others fear dictatorship. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
But as I've said before the core of the problem is unfixable at this point.
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Post by Nivro™ on Aug 29, 2015 10:28:45 GMT -5
No, because hypothetically speaking, if the Gov't came out today and said "Everyone needs to turn their guns in or else..." the only people who would turn their guns in are law biding citizens who don't commit gun crimes. Nut jobs like the Charleston shooter, Roanoke shooter etc would still find ways to get their hands on guns and those that couldnt would simply go to Lowes buy a few boxes of nails, grab a crockpot at Walmart and get on the internet and build a mini bomb just like we saw at the Boston Marathon bombing. Are we going to suggest banning nails, crockpots and the freedom to explore the internet as well, just to save a few lives? I personally dont own a gun but I make a damn good pot roast in my crock pot and if they try to come take it from me you damn well bet Ill buy a gun to defend it!
Thanks for ignoring two thirds of my post.
Then explain to me why there are almost no massacres involving nail bombs, crockpots and other stuff in other democracies. You act like taking away the right to own guns would turn the USA into a dictatorship oppressing the people. And also this (for a lack of a better word) hatred towards the evil government: Are you this passionate when the NSA and government violate the personal rights of billions of people around the world every second? Do you use Google, Facebook, Apple products and so on? But God forbid somebody wants to take away guns in order to reduce the amount of innocent people dieing. Billions of rights getting violated and nobody gives a , taking away the right to bear arms in order to actually save lives and you and many others fear dictatorship. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
But as I've said before the core of the problem is unfixable at this point.
I ignore the first part of your post because you're trying to compare countries that have anywhere between 30-50 million people with a country that legit has 318 millions. Gun deaths are going to be higher there if nothing else just because of the number of people. More people die in car wrecks every single year then they do from gun violence. So should we do away with cars? And again, the United States isnt a democracy...Its a Republic. It even states it in our Pledge of Allegiance when we say "...and to the Republic, for which it stands, on Nation, Under God...." but I digress. You ask why people dont use crock pot bombs in France or Italy or Germany...its simple...No offense, but nobody cares about those countries. Different countries, religions and just evil people have outright jealousy, envy and hatred for the United States. The United States is THE super power in the world. Dont get me wrong, I sincerely hope it never happens but if some terrorist sets off a WMD in Costa Rica or Denmark both of which are democracies...the world in general would barely blink an eye. However you knock down 2 buildings with a couple planes in NYC the world stops. Its really hard to compare the United States to the rest of the world because we're not the rest of the world. You ask me if Im passionate about the NSA spying on people...Yes I am, but that's not part of this topic. On average there are 32,000 deaths from gun violence every year. 60% of them are from Suicide, that's roughly 19,200. Now most of us know that if a person is going to take their lives, they're going to take it. Its a sad reality but when you're in that position and nobody has or can help you. It happens. Why are left wingers not stomping their feet more on suicide prevention? So of that 32k we can remove 19200 because guns wont stop that. So you're looking at 12,800 deaths per year by gun violence. 3% of that is accidental deaths (cleaning it goes off, shoots in the leg bleed to death). Accidents happen its a sad fact. If you want to argue that "well we shouldnt have guns so those accidents dont happen" please go up to my first paragraph about cars. So 3% of your 12800 is roughly 400 more deaths per year. Which Im willing to bet if you listed accidental causes of death, it would be extremely low on your list. So that leaves 12,400 deaths by gun homicide. Now that we have the number narrowed down to actual gun violence. Of roughly (Im rounding numbers) 12,400 deaths per year...80% of them are by gangs. You know, criminals...people who steal guns. People who wont abide by the laws. People who if the Gov't told you to hand in your guns...WOULDN'T! So 80% of your 12400 deaths being gang related brings our number to 2480 deaths per year. Now, here is the best part. Nobody wants to talk gun control until there is a mass murder or someone is shot on tv or there is something to sensationalize it. Mass murder deaths account for less then 1% of gun violence. That leaves you with roughly 2450 people dying from random acts of gun violence. Now on average about 500 people per year are killed in justifiable homicide. Which is a cop killing a criminal or someone breaking into you house and, gasp, you shoot them to protect your family. That leaves around 2000 deaths per year which are just flat out evil people killing other people which is only about 6 people per day. But see, this is where the problem lies with gun violence arguments. People dont study and break down numbers. And yes my numbers wont be 100% accurate because I took from multiple websites which used data from different year and I rounded numbers so I didnt have 2467..but the fact is when something like 2 innocent lives are taken. Anti gun people throw the 32000 number out and start yelling "They're killing everyone with guns" when in reality, if you look at the numbers. Its much much less. Ive lost the link to the site, ill try to find it again but we are a much less violent country now they we where in the 80s & 90s and believe it or not..Even in the 40s...which blew me away. linklinklink
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Post by screech on Aug 30, 2015 7:41:01 GMT -5
As I've said before. I fully understand where people like you are coming from. Your Constitution is a great accomplishment and you have every right to be proud of it. That being said criticism of the Constitution is and should be allowed as well.
To that second part. As I've explained before it's a vicious circle and a broken system at this point. However the deaths of innocent people is a bigger possibility due to the right to own guns. The circle started with the Second Amentment giving people the right to bear arms and that is the root of the problem. Just imagine this right wouldn't have made it into the Constitution. 250 years later and gun violence wouldn't be such a huge problem as can be seen with countries like the UK or Germany.
The question I bolded was rhetorical because the protection argument makes it seem like you need to watch your back at all times because the possibility of getting attacked and robbed is incredibly high even though it isn't. That's just how it seems to me as a German citizen who doesn't have the right to bear arms and is doing incredibly well without it. You might be living in a crime-ridden-society but after all there's still many measures against crimes. Like the police and a working justice system and laws.
Criticism is allowed but a strong response should be expected when the criticism is filled with fallacies, deals with our (and not their) right to protect ourselves and ultimately is coming from someone that the issue concerns in absolutely no way outside of their compassion fueled by misinformation. The fact is that the gun violence rates have steadily been going down for years now. This fact can not be ignored regardless of how many mass shootings in gun-free zones are promoted endlessly by the media to give a false illusion. Mass shootings are still relatively rare and hardly attribute to gun violence numbers outside of the gang shootings that are categorized as such. The gun violence numbers are way too high either way but nobody can ignore that it's mostly criminals attacking criminals and it's not hoards of innocents being slaughtered like the false narrative suggests. Again ignoring the fact that most gun violence involves criminals shooting criminals and not innocent people, you suggest if there was never a Second Amendment then there wouldn't be a similar number of innocent people being killed. There is absolutely no proof to suggest that we would live in a much more peaceful society if guns were always illegal here. Drugs have been illegal here for a long time and do you know how freely they flow throughout the states while mostly coming from foreign sources? If there were no guns being manufactured here from the start, what proof is there that they wouldn't have made their way in from foreign sources when our war on drugs fails because of that very reason? Also with the way violence is promoted in our culture, who's to say that there wouldn't be as many innocent people violated and/or killed without guns in the picture anyways? I believe it would be even worse here without the Second Amendment. Guns would have made their way in easily through the black market like drugs do and into the hands of criminals. Without the counterbalance of armed citizens, criminals would then thrive and the only solution out of the chaos/to prevent chaos would be to rely solely on the government for protection. Most people enjoy that our freedoms grant us protection from government intrusion and reliance in many ways so it would have severely altered that aspect of the unique American lifestyle if there had been a reliance on government for protection from its inception. The reason there's a low probability for most legal gun owners getting attacked is because areas with high legal gun ownership statistically have very low crime rates. That correlation cannot be ignored. Criminals ignore areas where they know they could meet opposition and possibly their death. The facts show that more gun ownership (by law-abiding citizens) results in lower crime rates no matter how much you want to ignore a person's free will and ultimately place blame on the gun's existence instead. Anyone who does speak in ways that suggests they need to constantly keep an eye open is just someone that uses common sense. Those that are always truly fearful of an attack probably live in an area that has a higher crime rate or they watch the local news too much which loves to report on these things and scare people. Regardless of government measures like police departments and a justice system, crime obviously still occurs in high enough numbers that even foreigners want to give their opinions on how to reduce it here. I'm not trying to be condescending but clearly the police cannot (and shouldn't be expected to) save every single life that is placed in danger. There are quite a few people here that live in rural areas where it would take police a long time to respond to a call. For the majority of rural areas, the citizens solve this problem themselves by having a high gun ownership rate thus preventing criminal activity and a reliance on slow police response. Outside of police protection, laws and the judicial system certainly can't help a dead person either even if they bring justice to their killer. Regardless of what area you live in, it's simply being smart to be cautious about reality. It's pointless to even question someone's reasoning for owning a firearm if they claim it's for protection when that is the main reason our right to own a gun is granted to us in the first place. No, because hypothetically speaking, if the Gov't came out today and said "Everyone needs to turn their guns in or else..." the only people who would turn their guns in are law biding citizens who don't commit gun crimes. Nut jobs like the Charleston shooter, Roanoke shooter etc would still find ways to get their hands on guns and those that couldnt would simply go to Lowes buy a few boxes of nails, grab a crockpot at Walmart and get on the internet and build a mini bomb just like we saw at the Boston Marathon bombing. Are we going to suggest banning nails, crockpots and the freedom to explore the internet as well, just to save a few lives? I personally dont own a gun but I make a damn good pot roast in my crock pot and if they try to come take it from me you damn well bet Ill buy a gun to defend it! Billions of rights getting violated and nobody gives a , taking away the right to bear arms in order to actually save lives and you and many others fear dictatorship. Hypocrisy at it's finest. I disagree with your statement when most pro-gun people understand that our Second Amendment was put in place to protect all of our other rights from being taken away. Secondly, I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to when you claim there are "billions of rights getting violated and nobody gives a ****". You keep referencing the NSA so I'll assume you mean that. I would agree that not enough care about that issue (like most issues) but it's been a national debate topic for quite a while now and is hardly something that "nobody gives a ****" about. "Taking away the right to bear arms in order to actually save lives" is making a false suggestion that a total gun confiscation would result in fewer deaths in the US. Why will nobody address the issue of criminals not turning in their guns if they did abolish the Second Amendment as you suggest? Please tell us how this full gun grab would be achieved when the people who commit the gun crimes don't turn their guns in at the local police station like the law-abiding citizens who never commit crimes. Is the solution that police be allowed to enter every single home to do a full search in hopes of picking up every last gun? If you think that's the right idea, it proves everyone who is pro-gun correct in their assumption that the Second Amendment holds up other rights because the direct action of unlawfully searching private property to enact this confiscation plan would directly violent everyone's Fourth Amendment rights in the process. (Protection from unlawful searches and seizures.) You seem to realize there is absolutely no way that there could be a full gun confiscation that picked up every last gun but still are suggesting that it would result in less gun deaths if implemented. (Which again gun violence has statistically declined for years anyways.) The reason your assumption is completely wrong is because people who follow laws would obey the new law and turn in their guns (a few would resist) while criminals would disobey the law (as always) and keep theirs. The ratio of criminals owning guns to law-abiding citizens owning guns would be radical considering how many guns already exist and are in the hands of criminals plus how many good people would turn their guns in fear of government reprisal. When that ratio is so radical, common sense suggests that criminals would thrive in that environment and crime of all types would rise. Comparing the US with other countries in terms of guns is pointless given the circumstances. I have to say Nivro™ 's post pretty much explained it perfectly (as have all of his posts) but I would also add our border with Mexico as another reason why the comparisons are pointless. Here in the US we have very strict policies on drugs yet Mexican drug cartels thrive with importing illegal drugs into the US black market. Anyone who believes that enacting a gun ban and confiscation (you did write "take away the right to bare arms in order to actually save lives") wouldn't result in a huge black market fueled by Mexican drug cartels and ultimately increase crime rates is highly mistaken.
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Post by theMOESIAH on Aug 30, 2015 9:16:15 GMT -5
I've been doing some new research in the topic and I'm still torn on the issue but I do have one question for the pro-gun people:
I'm hearing from most of you that guns aren't the problem, poverty and mental illness are. So why don't countries that also have guns and have as much mental illness and/or poverty than us or worse have the save problem with these mass shootings?
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Post by Nivro™ on Aug 30, 2015 16:30:31 GMT -5
I've been doing some new research in the topic and I'm still torn on the issue but I do have one question for the pro-gun people: I'm hearing from most of you that guns aren't the problem, poverty and mental illness are. So why don't countries that also have guns and have as much mental illness and/or poverty than us or worse have the save problem with these mass shootings? I think the thing people arent grasping is we're not having all this mass shootings. As my above post says on average less than 1% of gun violence is considered a mass shooting. Realistically, if this incident in Roanoke didnt happen on live TV, chances are you wouldnt have heard of it. I can almost promise if this was Jim Cooter from Bitters, Arkansas walking in to find his fat wife under Farmer Brown in their bed and he pulls out his shot gun and shoot both of them, it doesnt make it past regional news. Reasoning why is because the media/social media cant sensationalize it. The media finds things that they can push an agenda for whether its right or wrong. Perfect example is Freddy Grey Baltimore incident. After the Mike Brown ordeal, the media knew they could take that and blow it up and make a huge stick about it and stir the crap pot....The problem is the media doesnt tell you anything about how Baltimore crime rate is now at an all time high. They have multiple murders daily. I think they were up around 300 something for the year. Then again you can google search the names Channon Christian & Christopher Newsome, Im willing to bet nobody here has even heard of these two names. However their deaths were MUCH more gruesome and I dont recall it ever being put on Fox News or CNN. And to answer your first part of the question, its not poverty or mental illness, its people that are flat out evil. Its people who are raised with no morals. There's times when I have mood swings where Im convinced I would be bi polar, Ive also "slept in alleys and dined or pork and beans" so to speak....but Ive never gone out and robbed anyone, killed anyone or committed any major crimes. Its because while I might be opinionated and sometimes an bunghole. I was raised in a good family, I have morals and I have respect for other people.
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Kyle
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jun 18, 2008 22:51:03 GMT -5
Posts: 1,485
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Post by Kyle on Aug 30, 2015 16:54:47 GMT -5
I've been doing some new research in the topic and I'm still torn on the issue but I do have one question for the pro-gun people: I'm hearing from most of you that guns aren't the problem, poverty and mental illness are. So why don't countries that also have guns and have as much mental illness and/or poverty than us or worse have the save problem with these mass shootings? I think the thing people arent grasping is we're not having all this mass shootings. As my above post says on average less than 1% of gun violence is considered a mass shooting. Realistically, if this incident in Roanoke didnt happen on live TV, chances are you wouldnt have heard of it. I can almost promise if this was Jim Cooter from Bitters, Arkansas walking in to find his fat wife under Farmer Brown in their bed and he pulls out his shot gun and shoot both of them, it doesnt make it past regional news. Reasoning why is because the media/social media cant sensationalize it. The media finds things that they can push an agenda for whether its right or wrong. Perfect example is Freddy Grey Baltimore incident. After the Mike Brown ordeal, the media knew they could take that and blow it up and make a huge stick about it and stir the crap pot....The problem is the media doesnt tell you anything about how Baltimore crime rate is now at an all time high. They have multiple murders daily. I think they were up around 300 something for the year. Then again you can google search the names Channon Christian & Christopher Newsome, Im willing to bet nobody here has even heard of these two names. However their deaths were MUCH more gruesome and I dont recall it ever being put on Fox News or CNN. And to answer your first part of the question, its not poverty or mental illness, its people that are flat out evil. Its people who are raised with no morals. There's times when I have mood swings where Im convinced I would be bi polar, Ive also "slept in alleys and dined or pork and beans" so to speak....but Ive never gone out and robbed anyone, killed anyone or committed any major crimes. Its because while I might be opinionated and sometimes an bunghole. I was raised in a good family, I have morals and I have respect for other people. God, I wanna buy you an ice cold, adult beverage. This sums it up perfectly.
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Post by Tim of thee on Aug 30, 2015 17:02:03 GMT -5
I've been doing some new research in the topic and I'm still torn on the issue but I do have one question for the pro-gun people: I'm hearing from most of you that guns aren't the problem, poverty and mental illness are. So why don't countries that also have guns and have as much mental illness and/or poverty than us or worse have the save problem with these mass shootings? I think the thing people arent grasping is we're not having all this mass shootings. As my above post says on average less than 1% of gun violence is considered a mass shooting. Realistically, if this incident in Roanoke didnt happen on live TV, chances are you wouldnt have heard of it. I can almost promise if this was Jim Cooter from Bitters, Arkansas walking in to find his fat wife under Farmer Brown in their bed and he pulls out his shot gun and shoot both of them, it doesnt make it past regional news. Reasoning why is because the media/social media cant sensationalize it. The media finds things that they can push an agenda for whether its right or wrong. Perfect example is Freddy Grey Baltimore incident. After the Mike Brown ordeal, the media knew they could take that and blow it up and make a huge stick about it and stir the crap pot....The problem is the media doesnt tell you anything about how Baltimore crime rate is now at an all time high. They have multiple murders daily. I think they were up around 300 something for the year. Then again you can google search the names Channon Christian & Christopher Newsome, Im willing to bet nobody here has even heard of these two names. However their deaths were MUCH more gruesome and I dont recall it ever being put on Fox News or CNN. And to answer your first part of the question, its not poverty or mental illness, its people that are flat out evil. Its people who are raised with no morals. There's times when I have mood swings where Im convinced I would be bi polar, Ive also "slept in alleys and dined or pork and beans" so to speak....but Ive never gone out and robbed anyone, killed anyone or committed any major crimes. Its because while I might be opinionated and sometimes an bunghole. I was raised in a good family, I have morals and I have respect for other people. Maybe it's a respect for life. I see these people as having very little regard for life. Perhaps it's because they don't hold thier own life in high regard so it's easier for them to just take it from someone else.
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Kyle
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jun 18, 2008 22:51:03 GMT -5
Posts: 1,485
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Post by Kyle on Aug 30, 2015 17:07:42 GMT -5
Sadly, I would bet the farm that no one has ever heard about this- and that's exactly what the media wants. By their standards, this would be riot worthy if the races were reversed.
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Post by Nivro™ on Aug 30, 2015 18:10:21 GMT -5
I think the thing people arent grasping is we're not having all this mass shootings. As my above post says on average less than 1% of gun violence is considered a mass shooting. Realistically, if this incident in Roanoke didnt happen on live TV, chances are you wouldnt have heard of it. I can almost promise if this was Jim Cooter from Bitters, Arkansas walking in to find his fat wife under Farmer Brown in their bed and he pulls out his shot gun and shoot both of them, it doesnt make it past regional news. Reasoning why is because the media/social media cant sensationalize it. The media finds things that they can push an agenda for whether its right or wrong. Perfect example is Freddy Grey Baltimore incident. After the Mike Brown ordeal, the media knew they could take that and blow it up and make a huge stick about it and stir the crap pot....The problem is the media doesnt tell you anything about how Baltimore crime rate is now at an all time high. They have multiple murders daily. I think they were up around 300 something for the year. Then again you can google search the names Channon Christian & Christopher Newsome, Im willing to bet nobody here has even heard of these two names. However their deaths were MUCH more gruesome and I dont recall it ever being put on Fox News or CNN. And to answer your first part of the question, its not poverty or mental illness, its people that are flat out evil. Its people who are raised with no morals. There's times when I have mood swings where Im convinced I would be bi polar, Ive also "slept in alleys and dined or pork and beans" so to speak....but Ive never gone out and robbed anyone, killed anyone or committed any major crimes. Its because while I might be opinionated and sometimes an bunghole. I was raised in a good family, I have morals and I have respect for other people. God, I wanna buy you an ice cold, adult beverage. This sums it up perfectly. Ill settle for an ice cold diet mountain dew...or 2% milk if you bring cookies too! haha I stopped drinking regularly few years ago. Too much money, too many head aches. As for the article you posted above. You're absolutely right. I dont like playing the race card because I am white, my sister & nephews are minorities and I have minority friends but if the roles were reversed it would be a big stink. One of the best examples Ive seen was Christian Taylor down in Texas. He broke into a car lot, vandalized a couple cars, rookie cop came in and shot him within seconds. As soon as it was reported there were people everywhere saying that Taylor didnt do it that the cop was a racist yadda yadda yadda...I kept telling people to just wait for facts and not to judge either. Nope, the cop was 100% in the wrong, Taylor didnt do anything. Well once the video came out that Taylor did in fact do something wrong and yes, the cop was in the wrong as well...Everything just quietly went away. There was proof that Taylor wasnt just an innocent guy walking around a car lot. The point is the media looks for something they can sensationalize and cause a stir over. White cop killing unarmed black teen = STORY!....White cop killing unarmed black teen who appears to be high on something and is committing a crime, we'll sweep it under the rug. Charleston is another good example. What happened in Charleston, if it would have happened in a more "urban" type area like a Ferguson...crap would hit the fan. But Charleston people arent like that. They got together as a community and told the "protesters" to stay out. They came together and they prayed. You had people come together under God, you cant sensationalize that...so what happened? The media blamed everything on a flag and caused another big crap storm.
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Kyle
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jun 18, 2008 22:51:03 GMT -5
Posts: 1,485
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Post by Kyle on Aug 30, 2015 18:27:27 GMT -5
God, I wanna buy you an ice cold, adult beverage. This sums it up perfectly. Ill settle for an ice cold diet mountain dew...or 2% milk if you bring cookies too! haha I stopped drinking regularly few years ago. Too much money, too many head aches. As for the article you posted above. You're absolutely right. I dont like playing the race card because I am white, my sister & nephews are minorities and I have minority friends but if the roles were reversed it would be a big stink. One of the best examples Ive seen was Christian Taylor down in Texas. He broke into a car lot, vandalized a couple cars, rookie cop came in and shot him within seconds. As soon as it was reported there were people everywhere saying that Taylor didnt do it that the cop was a racist yadda yadda yadda...I kept telling people to just wait for facts and not to judge either. Nope, the cop was 100% in the wrong, Taylor didnt do anything. Well once the video came out that Taylor did in fact do something wrong and yes, the cop was in the wrong as well...Everything just quietly went away. There was proof that Taylor wasnt just an innocent guy walking around a car lot. The point is the media looks for something they can sensationalize and cause a stir over. White cop killing unarmed black teen = STORY!....White cop killing unarmed black teen who appears to be high on something and is committing a crime, we'll sweep it under the rug. Charleston is another good example. What happened in Charleston, if it would have happened in a more "urban" type area like a Ferguson...crap would hit the fan. But Charleston people arent like that. They got together as a community and told the "protesters" to stay out. They came together and they prayed. You had people come together under God, you cant sensationalize that...so what happened? The media blamed everything on a flag and caused another big crap storm. This is all true. Very true. Too many people drinking the koolaid instead of looking for facts. I have a black colleague that I consider a friend who regularly posts online about the "hate crimes" and shootings. I showed him less than a handful of crimes not involving guns or a crazy guy that wasn't white and he completely changed his views. As for guns, if there's a will, there's a way. If a human being is crazy enough to desire killing people, not having a gun isn't going to stop them. They'll just drive a mac truck through a church on Sunday morning or bomb a building full of people. This country has a people problem. Not guns, not racism, PEOPLE. This trend will only get worse if parents don't start raising their damn kids right, too. Peanut butter or chocolate chip?
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Post by Nivro™ on Aug 30, 2015 18:39:09 GMT -5
Ill settle for an ice cold diet mountain dew...or 2% milk if you bring cookies too! haha I stopped drinking regularly few years ago. Too much money, too many head aches. As for the article you posted above. You're absolutely right. I dont like playing the race card because I am white, my sister & nephews are minorities and I have minority friends but if the roles were reversed it would be a big stink. One of the best examples Ive seen was Christian Taylor down in Texas. He broke into a car lot, vandalized a couple cars, rookie cop came in and shot him within seconds. As soon as it was reported there were people everywhere saying that Taylor didnt do it that the cop was a racist yadda yadda yadda...I kept telling people to just wait for facts and not to judge either. Nope, the cop was 100% in the wrong, Taylor didnt do anything. Well once the video came out that Taylor did in fact do something wrong and yes, the cop was in the wrong as well...Everything just quietly went away. There was proof that Taylor wasnt just an innocent guy walking around a car lot. The point is the media looks for something they can sensationalize and cause a stir over. White cop killing unarmed black teen = STORY!....White cop killing unarmed black teen who appears to be high on something and is committing a crime, we'll sweep it under the rug. Charleston is another good example. What happened in Charleston, if it would have happened in a more "urban" type area like a Ferguson...crap would hit the fan. But Charleston people arent like that. They got together as a community and told the "protesters" to stay out. They came together and they prayed. You had people come together under God, you cant sensationalize that...so what happened? The media blamed everything on a flag and caused another big crap storm. This is all true. Very true. Too many people drinking the koolaid instead of looking for facts. I have a black colleague that I consider a friend who regularly posts online about the "hate crimes" and shootings. I showed him less than a handful of crimes not involving guns or a crazy guy that wasn't white and he completely changed his views. As for guns, if there's a will, there's a way. If a human being is crazy enough to desire killing people, not having a gun isn't going to stop them. They'll just drive a mac truck through a church on Sunday morning or bomb a building full of people. This country has a people problem. Not guns, not racism, PEOPLE. This trend will only get worse if parents don't start raising their damn kids right, too. Peanut butter or chocolate chip? Chocolate chip! And I agree, the world isnt evil...there are just evil people in the world. Banning guns just isnt going to stop that. My dad posted this (below) on his facebook. While I dont necessarily agree everyone needs religion, everyone needs to be taught morals and right from wrong now days. And this is 100% accurate. banning guns wont stop people from killing other people.
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