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Post by cordless2016 on Dec 31, 2017 16:55:25 GMT -5
Nobody has been able to answer the Laura Dern plot hole. Why didn’t she just tell Poe the plan? The answer is simple, because if she does, then Finn, Rose and, to a lesser degree, Poe, have no subplot as they sit on a ship running out of gas (a plot device they stole from Battlestar Galactica where it was done infinitely better, mind you). I agree that it felt like Johnson had never read a previous Star Wars script, but The Force Awakens in-particular. He had to of at least seen the OT, because he stole from Empire and Jedi pretty frequently throughout the story. I don’t understand the people who liked this, who hated TFA, who are not calling this out for the copycat scenery and plot themes that happen throughout the film. I saw it a second time on Christmas Eve. The comedy was definitely softened the second time. I thought the Yoda scene was much better than on the original viewing, that being the dialogue. I still have a problem with him using Force Lightning. Why wouldn’t he use that against the First Order at will? Regardless, that scene was largely saved for me on a second viewing, which was a big deal because I’m a massive Yoda fan. The Canto Bight scene was worse for me though on a second viewing, more so visually than anything else. I paid more attention to the set design and man does that scene feel like it’s right out of the prequels. Forget why Rose and Finn are there, which is obviously an issue that’s been addressed, but I don’t know how you can get over the cgi, especially since JJ did such a great job with practical effects and set pieces in TFA. JJ worked with Lawrence Kasdan on TFA. Johnson needed Kasdan here and didn’t use him. I think TLJ is easily the most poorly written of the 8 films. That’s the part that really has me miffed because Looper and Brick are extremely well written scripts. It’s almost like Johnson was disinterested in picking up someone else’s work and building on the previous installment. He just wanted to do his own thing, which begs the question of why he took this particular job. Maybe he just wanted to get the green light on his own (original concept) Trilogy, but I have to believe that’s in-doubt now based on the backlash for this film. We’ll see how JJ handles 9. He can retcon Snoke and Rey’s parents very easily. I think he will. He obviously had ideas for both in 7. We’ll see Force Ghost Luke. So I do think they can salvage the story as long as they’re willing to acknowledge the problems from 8 head on. I expect 9 will end up being more of a “safe” film but as long as there isn’t a Death Star I think they’ll be fine. It’s still tracking at a domestic drop off of 40% from Episode 7 when this thing is all said and done, despite some unforeseen upswing in interest in the next two weeks. I would guess Disney views that as a pretty big disappointment. I don’t think that’s either here nor there because JJ is coming back regardless. The biggest issue I see with episode 9 is that TLJ literally did nothing to move this trilogy forward towards the final arc. TFA, while with its issues, still was a solid start to a new trilogy. But unlike ESB where the character grew and the movie left us with many questions going into the third movie (will they save Han/will Luke recover from his injuries/how will he react to knowing Vader is his father), nobody grew in TLJ. The story didn’t progress because it totally ignored the questions raised in TFA. I trust JJ but instead of focusing on bringing this trilogy to an end, he’ll have to focus on fixing all the crap from TLJ on top of ending this. Daisy Ridley already said she’s ready to move on from Rey so it’s not like they can do this over multiple movies. They have a lot to fix and finish in the next one, which I’m not sure they will be able to do (unless it opens with Rey waking up at the end of TFA and it’s revealed that TLJ was one big nightmare the whole time). My biggest issue with the Yoda scene is that if the force-ghosts can create lightning and do actual damage, why haven’t they been assisting the rebellion? Why did Obi-Wan tell Luke he couldn’t help him in his first fight with Vader if he could have hit him with some ghost-lightning? Like most of the movie this scene ignored previous lore the movies laid out for us. And even if they don’t help fight, why hasn’t Anakin’s force ghost ever shown up to talk to Kylo? Why not a quick scene where he tells Kylo he made the wrong choice and to not make the same mistakes he had? The ghosts have always been portrayed as a guiding voice, but this Yoda scene opens up more plot holes with why they haven’t helped fight the Empire or First Order.
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Post by punksnotdead on Dec 31, 2017 19:27:24 GMT -5
Yeah, I definitely agree, and said that to a number of people I knew after they saw it. I asked the question now what? Episode 8 puts us back to where we started. Kylo Ren is the only character with growth, but from a plot perspective he’s just 1A now instead of 1B. Oh... but Poe is ready to lead the resistance now because the women have shown him the way, derp.
I personally think there is going to be a relatively large time jump for this exact reason. JJ will have to say the growth occurred during the time lapse because we never actually saw any of it during Episode 8. Johnson hit reset, only now all of the OT trio is either fictionally or actually dead. So JJ seems to be tasked with telling both a new conflict story and wrapping up a trilogy, which is crazy. Episode 9 might have to be 3 hours long.
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Post by Mongo Bears on Dec 31, 2017 22:55:57 GMT -5
I didn’t like the Jurassic Park lady being in Star Wars. The jokes were bad. Luke was horrible. I wish Benicio del torros character had more involvement because I think I like him. I wish Kylo Ren killed Rey or if she joined him when he asked that would’ve been great. It was ok though and easy to watch even though it was long.
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Cameron Stone
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jan 16, 2013 18:16:15 GMT -5
Posts: 2,014
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Post by Cameron Stone on Jan 1, 2018 3:47:04 GMT -5
Nobody has been able to answer the Laura Dern plot hole. Why didn’t she just tell Poe the plan? The answer is simple, because if she does, then Finn, Rose and, to a lesser degree, Poe, have no subplot as they sit on a ship running out of gas (a plot device they stole from Battlestar Galactica where it was done infinitely better, mind you). I agree that it felt like Johnson had never read a previous Star Wars script, but The Force Awakens in-particular. He had to of at least seen the OT, because he stole from Empire and Jedi pretty frequently throughout the story. I don’t understand the people who liked this, who hated TFA, who are not calling this out for the copycat scenery and plot themes that happen throughout the film. I saw it a second time on Christmas Eve. The comedy was definitely softened the second time. I thought the Yoda scene was much better than on the original viewing, that being the dialogue. I still have a problem with him using Force Lightning. Why wouldn’t he use that against the First Order at will? Regardless, that scene was largely saved for me on a second viewing, which was a big deal because I’m a massive Yoda fan. The Canto Bight scene was worse for me though on a second viewing, more so visually than anything else. I paid more attention to the set design and man does that scene feel like it’s right out of the prequels. Forget why Rose and Finn are there, which is obviously an issue that’s been addressed, but I don’t know how you can get over the cgi, especially since JJ did such a great job with practical effects and set pieces in TFA. JJ worked with Lawrence Kasdan on TFA. Johnson needed Kasdan here and didn’t use him. I think TLJ is easily the most poorly written of the 8 films. That’s the part that really has me miffed because Looper and Brick are extremely well written scripts. It’s almost like Johnson was disinterested in picking up someone else’s work and building on the previous installment. He just wanted to do his own thing, which begs the question of why he took this particular job. Maybe he just wanted to get the green light on his own (original concept) Trilogy, but I have to believe that’s in-doubt now based on the backlash for this film. We’ll see how JJ handles 9. He can retcon Snoke and Rey’s parents very easily. I think he will. He obviously had ideas for both in 7. We’ll see Force Ghost Luke. So I do think they can salvage the story as long as they’re willing to acknowledge the problems from 8 head on. I expect 9 will end up being more of a “safe” film but as long as there isn’t a Death Star I think they’ll be fine. It’s still tracking at a domestic drop off of 40% from Episode 7 when this thing is all said and done, despite some unforeseen upswing in interest in the next two weeks. I would guess Disney views that as a pretty big disappointment. I don’t think that’s either here nor there because JJ is coming back regardless. Because of Finn. Rey and Chewy were the only two on the ground with him during the events of Starkiller Base. They're gone and that leaves nobody to vouch for Finn. All Dern's character knows is that like a week ago Finn was a First Order Stormtrooper, who was present at the time of Han Solo's death, and is buddy/buddy with Poe. Anything they tell Poe, he's going to tell Finn. No military command would risk letting someone in Finn's position gain that kind of Intel
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Post by cordless2016 on Jan 1, 2018 13:34:38 GMT -5
Nobody has been able to answer the Laura Dern plot hole. Why didn’t she just tell Poe the plan? The answer is simple, because if she does, then Finn, Rose and, to a lesser degree, Poe, have no subplot as they sit on a ship running out of gas (a plot device they stole from Battlestar Galactica where it was done infinitely better, mind you). I agree that it felt like Johnson had never read a previous Star Wars script, but The Force Awakens in-particular. He had to of at least seen the OT, because he stole from Empire and Jedi pretty frequently throughout the story. I don’t understand the people who liked this, who hated TFA, who are not calling this out for the copycat scenery and plot themes that happen throughout the film. I saw it a second time on Christmas Eve. The comedy was definitely softened the second time. I thought the Yoda scene was much better than on the original viewing, that being the dialogue. I still have a problem with him using Force Lightning. Why wouldn’t he use that against the First Order at will? Regardless, that scene was largely saved for me on a second viewing, which was a big deal because I’m a massive Yoda fan. The Canto Bight scene was worse for me though on a second viewing, more so visually than anything else. I paid more attention to the set design and man does that scene feel like it’s right out of the prequels. Forget why Rose and Finn are there, which is obviously an issue that’s been addressed, but I don’t know how you can get over the cgi, especially since JJ did such a great job with practical effects and set pieces in TFA. JJ worked with Lawrence Kasdan on TFA. Johnson needed Kasdan here and didn’t use him. I think TLJ is easily the most poorly written of the 8 films. That’s the part that really has me miffed because Looper and Brick are extremely well written scripts. It’s almost like Johnson was disinterested in picking up someone else’s work and building on the previous installment. He just wanted to do his own thing, which begs the question of why he took this particular job. Maybe he just wanted to get the green light on his own (original concept) Trilogy, but I have to believe that’s in-doubt now based on the backlash for this film. We’ll see how JJ handles 9. He can retcon Snoke and Rey’s parents very easily. I think he will. He obviously had ideas for both in 7. We’ll see Force Ghost Luke. So I do think they can salvage the story as long as they’re willing to acknowledge the problems from 8 head on. I expect 9 will end up being more of a “safe” film but as long as there isn’t a Death Star I think they’ll be fine. It’s still tracking at a domestic drop off of 40% from Episode 7 when this thing is all said and done, despite some unforeseen upswing in interest in the next two weeks. I would guess Disney views that as a pretty big disappointment. I don’t think that’s either here nor there because JJ is coming back regardless. Because of Finn. Rey and Chewy were the only two on the ground with him during the events of Starkiller Base. They're gone and that leaves nobody to vouch for Finn. All Dern's character knows is that like a week ago Finn was a First Order Stormtrooper, who was present at the time of Han Solo's death, and is buddy/buddy with Poe. Anything they tell Poe, he's going to tell Finn. No military command would risk letting someone in Finn's position gain that kind of Intel But the movie never outright states this. This is a fan theory to fill in a plot hole. Poe has shown multiple times that he’s dedicated to the rebellion. Why wouldn’t they trust him if he vouched for Finn? Poe blew up Starkiller base - that to me is enough to take his word if he says Finn can be trusted (also throw in the fact that Finn was the one who saved Poe from capture in TFA).
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Post by Mongo Bears on Jan 1, 2018 17:57:25 GMT -5
Why did they need to show Luke go and milk the boob of a giant alien walrus and drink it?
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Cameron Stone
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jan 16, 2013 18:16:15 GMT -5
Posts: 2,014
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Post by Cameron Stone on Jan 2, 2018 2:32:40 GMT -5
Because of Finn. Rey and Chewy were the only two on the ground with him during the events of Starkiller Base. They're gone and that leaves nobody to vouch for Finn. All Dern's character knows is that like a week ago Finn was a First Order Stormtrooper, who was present at the time of Han Solo's death, and is buddy/buddy with Poe. Anything they tell Poe, he's going to tell Finn. No military command would risk letting someone in Finn's position gain that kind of Intel But the movie never outright states this. This is a fan theory to fill in a plot hole. Poe has shown multiple times that he’s dedicated to the rebellion. Why wouldn’t they trust him if he vouched for Finn? Poe blew up Starkiller base - that to me is enough to take his word if he says Finn can be trusted (also throw in the fact that Finn was the one who saved Poe from capture in TFA). No. No legit military command would still take his word over it. Especially when in the battle that just happened Poe ignored direct orders and got demoted. And fan theory, sure, but in the end, military command doesn't need to or will always explain everything to their soldiers. There's tons of giant plot holes in the original trilogy too. It's part of the territory. But sometimes it's nice to come up with your own thoughts on little things like that, instead of needing to have literally everything said for you
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Post by cordless2016 on Jan 2, 2018 9:49:20 GMT -5
Why did they need to show Luke go and milk the boob of a giant alien walrus and drink it? The Walrus even gave Rey a “what’s up” nod while Luke was doing it. I remember everyone around me had a look of “WTF” on their faces.
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Post by punksnotdead on Jan 2, 2018 11:03:28 GMT -5
But the movie never outright states this. This is a fan theory to fill in a plot hole. Poe has shown multiple times that he’s dedicated to the rebellion. Why wouldn’t they trust him if he vouched for Finn? Poe blew up Starkiller base - that to me is enough to take his word if he says Finn can be trusted (also throw in the fact that Finn was the one who saved Poe from capture in TFA). No. No legit military command would still take his word over it. Especially when in the battle that just happened Poe ignored direct orders and got demoted. And fan theory, sure, but in the end, military command doesn't need to or will always explain everything to their soldiers. There's tons of giant plot holes in the original trilogy too. It's part of the territory. But sometimes it's nice to come up with your own thoughts on little things like that, instead of needing to have literally everything said for youThere is a pretty monumental difference between ambiguity in storytelling, wherein the audience is left to either ask questions or answer questions for themselves, and a plot hole created from the direct actions of the characters on screen. If "because military" wraps a bow around that scenario for you, I'm happy for you, but it's an extremely poor explanation for me. Also, your "answer" goes directly against what we've seen on screen. Finn was granted permission to go with Han Solo, with an entire Resistance war room standing around him, and save the Galaxy from the Starkiller Base. It's probably a plot hole that Holdo wasn't in those scenes in TFA, at least in hologram form since she was so high up on the chain of command, but I won't split hairs over shoehorning in new characters. Then, in TLJ, we see Rose absolutely fan girl over Finn for being a hero of the Resistance. So we can easily surmise that stories of the Resistance spread like wildfire throughout the Galaxy (primarily because we've seen this actually occur in previous films and in the Rebels cartoon). If Rose knows what Finn did, so does Holdo. Being that was the case, we can safely say that nobody was worried about Finn being some kind of Resistance infiltrator. I can definitely say, with complete assuredness, that nobody was worried about the best pilot in the Resistance being in cahoots with Finn as some kind of traitors. That's all totally made up plot details, and not a shred of anything even resembling this scenario was actually seen, or even alluded to, during the film. The plot hole takes place before Poe and Finn even discuss the alternative subplot to go turn off the hyperdrive tracker. Let's skip ahead to the full blown mutiny. Holdo, at any point, could have told Poe to calm down and asked him to talk. She didn't, because her character was the queen of nonsensical decisions. But I digress, take Finn totally out of the equation, and there is still no reason, whatsoever, for Holdo to treat her escape pod plan like some kind of Christmas morning surprise. "Surprise! You're not going to be blown away in space in these defenseless escape pods because we're going to that planet over there! Cool, amirite!!" Poe is the best fighter pilot in the Resistance, and presumably the Galaxy. He's already been in charge of his command for countless Rebellion missions, to the point where we're led to believe he's next in-line for Leia's leadership role. Holdo would have respected his position, and not treated him like a stranger, even if he was demoted hours earlier, in what we know was a point proving measure by Leia. I also don't view the Resistance as having the military structure of our government, or the First Order, but that's entirely subjective, I suppose. We've loosely seen how the Resistance operates throughout the previous films. We've also seen their size in numbers. In the past, particularly in Rogue One, we see them as almost an open forum democracy. Jyn presents her idea and the leadership counsel debates the issue, with everyone watching on. That practice wasn't present in this film. Another example of Johnson not knowing the previous material. Han Solo had been with the Rebels for about 10 minutes when he was present for the full rundown on the attack of the first Death Star. Not only that, but everyone presumed he was leaving with this knowledge, as well. I just don't see how making up fake plot points helps you explain away an incoherent narrative, but to each their own.
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Jimmy Toucan (+ The Flipout)
Superstar
'They should just give us album of the year...right now.'
Joined on: Aug 7, 2016 17:04:33 GMT -5
Posts: 727
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Post by Jimmy Toucan (+ The Flipout) on Jan 7, 2018 22:38:22 GMT -5
I didn’t mind it but I wouldn’t go out of my way to see it again I think.
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Post by disorder on Jan 8, 2018 23:20:59 GMT -5
Poe is probably the worst character of the new trilogy.
Way too sarcastic.
I enjoyed the last Jedi and have seen it twice so far, but after a second time..that opening seen with him and hux annoyed the piss out of me.
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Post by RSCTom on Jan 9, 2018 12:11:39 GMT -5
I kind of love how polarizing this all is. It's like the prequels on drugs. Which, for that reason alone makes me feel like everything is connected moreso than probably ever before.
Also Luke's green milk scene is in the top 5 Star Wars scenes of all time for me. F***ing brilliant. This dude who was once legitimately a hero and 'the chosen one' has become this self-sustained/absorbed lazy and eccentric weirdo with a taste for green sea milk. It's just so absurd and entertaining. The transition was already taking place from Episode IV to Episode VI (Luke definitely was getting weirder and weirder despite how 'badass' we all love to think of him as) and it's just the extreme yet silly version of what he is. Star Wars has been about entertaining with the absurd since the beginning, not about who looks the coolest.
Again I think sometimes people want these movies to be more than glorified Muppet movies which I understand because they are so much fun, so 'cool' and really so laid back and straight forward with their messaging. But really this one is the most Star Wars of all...Luke truly is deep down the embodiment of the 'light' side of the Jedi religion...he's a master and he is the 'chosen one'. It's very subtle but wouldn't you say, more than ever before, balance has been brought to the force? Rey is on one side, Kylo is on the other, that's it and it's all thanks to Luke.
There's definitely some shellshock to get over when you realize this isn't the exact Star Wars movie we were expecting (even some disappointment, still hoping in the next one Rey is a Kenobi) but when you accept it it's pretty great. I'm assuming the same people who loved Rogue One or who don't like the prequels probably weren't too keen on this. To each their own, I guess.
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Post by RSCTom on Jan 9, 2018 12:13:49 GMT -5
Oh also despite me enjoying the movie I absolutely hate the last 5 minutes. The little kid with the force pull on the broom and the shooting star was excruciating. That's basically like what plays on the screen waiting in line for Star Tours. "Now YOU are a Jedi too! For a family package of 799.99!" If I could chop that off like I could chop off an infected leg to survive I would.
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Post by Darkhawk on Jan 12, 2018 6:03:48 GMT -5
I finally saw the Last Jedi and hate everything about it. I'm tired of the Resistance crap it's just awful and how are they going to fight a whole army with 20 people? Makes no sense. Rose was such a waste of a character and I want to punch the guy that thought it was a good idea to introduce her and take away film time from other important characters. Too many important characters die and Luke shouldn't have died!! I'm just wondering how they are going to move forward with the current characters and crap storyline telling. I liked BVS more than the Last Jedi.
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Post by BROKEN on Feb 3, 2018 13:02:21 GMT -5
Really hyped for the Solo movie.
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Post by JokerFC on Feb 3, 2018 13:13:49 GMT -5
There's definitely some shellshock to get over when you realize this isn't the exact Star Wars movie we were expecting (even some disappointment, still hoping in the next one Rey is a Kenobi) but when you accept it it's pretty great. I'm assuming the same people who loved Rogue One or who don't like the prequels probably weren't too keen on this. To each their own, I guess. LOVED TLJ. LOVED Rogue One. There are some groan inducing moments in the Prequels but absolutely LOADS to love too. The Clone Wars has made them better too IMO. The Rebels final trailer has me very excited......also cant wait for the Solo trailer. I'm a f*ckin SW junkie boys......
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Post by Self-Savior on Feb 4, 2018 19:02:49 GMT -5
Solo trailer tomorrow. Can't wait, the teaser during the Super Bowl was cool.
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Post by BROKEN on Feb 4, 2018 19:06:21 GMT -5
Can’t wait to see Han and Chewie back in action.
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Post by cordless2016 on Feb 4, 2018 19:36:18 GMT -5
“I’ll be the greatest pilot in the galaxy.”
After TLJ, I’ve got a bad feeling about this...
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Post by TheLastDude on Feb 4, 2018 19:48:45 GMT -5
I liked the teaser. Gave just enough to make me care. Good work gang!
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