Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 14:49:26 GMT -5
He would've been looked over with all the WWE guys coming in. That said, Vince  ed over Vader. No reason why he shouldn't have been champion. |
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Post by The Brain on Sept 1, 2016 15:45:49 GMT -5
He deserved at least one run as WWF Champion. The fact that he didn't was a crime.
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Quazimoto
Superstar
Joined on: Feb 4, 2014 12:37:37 GMT -5
Posts: 997 
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Post by Quazimoto on Sept 1, 2016 17:03:44 GMT -5
I disagree. Vader came into WWE with a bang. Big time. He looked like a legit monster in his first few appearance. Unfortunately, when he signed with them, he was injured and needing some time off, hence the attack on Gorilla Monsoon and subsequent suspension. More unfortunately, when he did return, he wasn't fully healed, which ultimately cut his career short. Despite that, WWE had big plans for Vader as he was supposed to win the WWE Championship from Shawn Michaels at SummerSlam in 1996. HBK, who by his own admission was a colossal arse at the time, refused to drop the belt to Vader for whatever reason (that's why Sid got into the title picture late that year, because Michaels didn't want to work with or do the job for Vader). Many people don't know, but despite his appearance, Vader is a supremely kind hearted individual and his accomplishments in the wrestling industry mean a great deal to him. Being told he was going to win the title and coming back from injury earlier than he should have in order to get into such a position in the storylines, but then finding out that Shawn had vetoed it really hurt Vader and I think he kinda lost a lot of his passion at that point. IMO, Vader would have been way more out of place in the NWO era of WCW than he ever was in WWE. Frankly, was too nice for his own good to survive in that world. If you weren't one of Hogan or Bischoff's boys, you really didn't go anywhere in WCW at that time. Had Vader not have gone to WWE, I think he would have just gone back to Japan to end his career. Of course the WWF introduced Vader on a bang. That is expected. Hell, look at how they brought in The Big Show in 1999. Off with a bang. However, they had him job to Steve Austin right out of the gate. Back to Vader, they made him this big monster right out of the gate. They continued this streak but after SummerSlam 1996, all of the steam Vader had was lost. Soon after, Vader became a mere supporting player. After the Fall of 1997, things went downhill from there. If the WWF knew what to do with Vader, they would have put him in high-profile programs. They had a few chances to rehab him but it was too late. Guys losing passion because of their position is nothing new. CM Punk and Alberto Del Rio are more recent examples. I don't disagree with any of that. All I was really saying is that WWE clearly had big plans for Vader when he came in. Big plans that would have worked wonderfully had Shawn Michaels not been a complete asshat about it. Things absolutely went downhill from there for Vader. And yes, they certainly could have turned it around if they wanted to, but they basically plug Sid into that 'monster' roll they had planned for him so, Vader was kind of lost in the shuffle (this has happened to lots of guys over the years). Sure, they could have reignited the Vader flame if they really wanted, but a combination of factors pretty well led to that not happening. He was still working hurt and not fully recovered (I think he says himself he never really got back to 100% because he just came back from injury too soon and didn't have time to heal properly), he had a stigma attached to him from HBK not wanting to work with him or drop the belt to him, and most importantly, the business was changing at that time and guys like Vader really didn't fit in anymore. Don't get me wrong, the onus is mostly on WWE for basically ruining Vader's run in the company (some on Shawn Michaels and some on Vader himself). They messed it up (as they've messed up a good number of potential legendary runs over the years). I think had he come in a year or two earlier, things would have been different. Vader could have and probably should have been a dominate force in the WWE Championship scene for a couple years, but it didn't work out and that's a terrible shame because IMO, he's easily in my top fifty, all time greats (I think I'd put him somewhere around the 20-30ish slot if I were ranking them). |
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Post by The Brain on Sept 1, 2016 17:17:45 GMT -5
Vader is my favorite big man wrestler ever. Him and Bigelow had the best moonsaults imo.
And that helmet he wore in Japan and WCW was just awesome. Definite in my book future hall of famer hell he should be in there already.
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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on Sept 1, 2016 20:59:18 GMT -5
Of course the WWF introduced Vader on a bang. That is expected. Hell, look at how they brought in The Big Show in 1999. Off with a bang. However, they had him job to Steve Austin right out of the gate. Back to Vader, they made him this big monster right out of the gate. They continued this streak but after SummerSlam 1996, all of the steam Vader had was lost. Soon after, Vader became a mere supporting player. After the Fall of 1997, things went downhill from there. If the WWF knew what to do with Vader, they would have put him in high-profile programs. They had a few chances to rehab him but it was too late. Guys losing passion because of their position is nothing new. CM Punk and Alberto Del Rio are more recent examples. I don't disagree with any of that. All I was really saying is that WWE clearly had big plans for Vader when he came in. Big plans that would have worked wonderfully had Shawn Michaels not been a complete asshat about it. Things absolutely went downhill from there for Vader. And yes, they certainly could have turned it around if they wanted to, but they basically plug Sid into that 'monster' roll they had planned for him so, Vader was kind of lost in the shuffle (this has happened to lots of guys over the years). Sure, they could have reignited the Vader flame if they really wanted, but a combination of factors pretty well led to that not happening. He was still working hurt and not fully recovered (I think he says himself he never really got back to 100% because he just came back from injury too soon and didn't have time to heal properly), he had a stigma attached to him from HBK not wanting to work with him or drop the belt to him, and most importantly, the business was changing at that time and guys like Vader really didn't fit in anymore. Don't get me wrong, the onus is mostly on WWE for basically ruining Vader's run in the company (some on Shawn Michaels and some on Vader himself). They messed it up (as they've messed up a good number of potential legendary runs over the years). I think had he come in a year or two earlier, things would have been different. Vader could have and probably should have been a dominate force in the WWE Championship scene for a couple years, but it didn't work out and that's a terrible shame because IMO, he's easily in my top fifty, all time greats (I think I'd put him somewhere around the 20-30ish slot if I were ranking them). I can agree with most, if not everything. Vader's run in WCW and WWF is still fresh in my memory. The best American's got to see of Vader was his run in WCW. WCW knew how to promote and book him. Harley Race was a far better manager for Vader then James E. Cornette. Bar none, Vader is one of the most agile big men of all time. Hell, I would even say Vader was ahead of his time. Same with Bam Bam Bigelow. What's sad is Vince McMahon had so many money guys who could have made him a much richer man. Vader was one of those guys who was easy to market. It is a crime Vader isn't in the WWE Hall of Fame. |
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China Claus
Main Eventer
I can feeel your sensitivity
Joined on: Apr 17, 2012 20:05:15 GMT -5
Posts: 2,737
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Post by China Claus on Sept 2, 2016 0:39:58 GMT -5
I consider myself quite the Vader fan, and I often wonder why he wasn't used better here in the States, as he was in Japan.
I always wished Vader had went over Hogan for the WCW title, and then Michaels for the WWF Championship. He could've dropped both belts back, even having a short reign with both.
I almost wonder if Leon White just didn't have a political mind for the business, as Hogan, Michaels, and some of the other all time greats have had, especially during that timeframe.
I'd like to think, had Vader stayed in WCW, he would've had some decent programs with the likes of the Giant, Hall and Nash, even if he never saw gold again.
But he'll always be remembered as one of the best big men ever, even if he had his best days in Japan.
And I'm okay with that.
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Quazimoto
Superstar
Joined on: Feb 4, 2014 12:37:37 GMT -5
Posts: 997
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Post by Quazimoto on Sept 2, 2016 1:31:17 GMT -5
I don't disagree with any of that. All I was really saying is that WWE clearly had big plans for Vader when he came in. Big plans that would have worked wonderfully had Shawn Michaels not been a complete asshat about it. Things absolutely went downhill from there for Vader. And yes, they certainly could have turned it around if they wanted to, but they basically plug Sid into that 'monster' roll they had planned for him so, Vader was kind of lost in the shuffle (this has happened to lots of guys over the years). Sure, they could have reignited the Vader flame if they really wanted, but a combination of factors pretty well led to that not happening. He was still working hurt and not fully recovered (I think he says himself he never really got back to 100% because he just came back from injury too soon and didn't have time to heal properly), he had a stigma attached to him from HBK not wanting to work with him or drop the belt to him, and most importantly, the business was changing at that time and guys like Vader really didn't fit in anymore. Don't get me wrong, the onus is mostly on WWE for basically ruining Vader's run in the company (some on Shawn Michaels and some on Vader himself). They messed it up (as they've messed up a good number of potential legendary runs over the years). I think had he come in a year or two earlier, things would have been different. Vader could have and probably should have been a dominate force in the WWE Championship scene for a couple years, but it didn't work out and that's a terrible shame because IMO, he's easily in my top fifty, all time greats (I think I'd put him somewhere around the 20-30ish slot if I were ranking them). I can agree with most, if not everything. Vader's run in WCW and WWF is still fresh in my memory. The best American's got to see of Vader was his run in WCW. WCW knew how to promote and book him. Harley Race was a far better manager for Vader then James E. Cornette. Bar none, Vader is one of the most agile big men of all time. Hell, I would even say Vader was ahead of his time. Same with Bam Bam Bigelow. What's sad is Vince McMahon had so many money guys who could have made him a much richer man. Vader was one of those guys who was easy to market. It is a crime Vader isn't in the WWE Hall of Fame.Danged right it is. Baffles me that he's not really. I'd whole heartedly agree that Vader (and Bam Bam) was way ahead of his time too. In fact, I'd go so far to say that if Vader were in his prime nowadays, he's be one of the biggest stars on the planet. It's an absolute shame that so many wrestling fans aren't really aware of his legacy because they only know him from his WWE run. I'd tell any of those people that if you can't watch a bunch of his Japan stuff, to at least head to the WWE Network and check out his work in WCW. He really was a uniquely gifted performer. Definitely have to agree with Vince and company missing the boat on a lot of guys over the years. Tis a shame he's always had a bunch of yes men surrounding him and allowed certain talents to dictate the product at times. Starting to see a shift now with the emergences of less traditional types of talents in the top roles of WWE and I, for one, really hope it continues. |
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Post by JC Motors on Sept 3, 2016 8:11:02 GMT -5
Vader was US Champion though. He beat Hacksaw Duggan for it at Starrcade 95 and held it for like 7 or 8 months. Too bad WCW lost the copyright to his name Wait what? |
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Post by Jonathan Karate on Sept 3, 2016 23:54:40 GMT -5
If Vader had gone to the WWF in say 1998 his career would have been much better WWF wise.
Vader vs Austin in 1998 would have been great.
Hell, programs with Taker,Foley, Kane,Shamrock, and others would have been AWESOME in 1998 had a completely healthy Vader come in then.
Coming in when he did was very detrimental to Vader's WWF success. There's no way HBK was letting anyone not named Hall or Nash look good in 1996. It still amazes me that he had as good of a match as he did with Mankind with how selfish he was at the time.
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