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Post by J12 on May 15, 2017 22:15:46 GMT -5
His matches with Daniel Bryan were huge disappointments. Everything else you listed is from 2011 and before. No one is arguing that Orton wasn't once very good. They're arguing he's not very good now, and your list just supports that claim. I thought his matches with Bryan on Raw were really good. The ones prior to their feud. They had I think like 2 or 3 maybe. But his match with Rollins at Mania 31 was great. He was injured not to long after that for almost a year and then returned less than a year ago. He plays it safe with his shoulder but people are making it out like he's never put on a great match I loved the no holds barred, or no DQ match with Bryan on Raw. The matches that were part of the feud were way below par, especially for the quality Bryan was putting out at the time. The Rollins match was good, but I personally wouldn't call it great. But still, that's two matches it seems most would probably agree with, versus a dozen or more in the first half or so of his career. I know he plays it safe, and that's fine, but it shouldn't exempt him from criticism. He's also had a lot of really bad, bland, or just plain boring matches in this second half of his career, and is coming out of one of the worst WWE angles in recent memory. There's just a huge contrast between current Randy Orton and Randy Orton from 2011 and before. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 8:01:48 GMT -5
He's still one of the most fluid workers I've ever seen. In my opinion, I think people confuse his "lack" of things in the ring with how he makes everything look so effortless.
And I still don't see why him protecting himself in the ring is a bad thing. Why would anyone want to take unnecessary risks in a business that is so dangerous to begin with?
Family doesn't always make you a top star. Joe Henning, Ted Debiase Jr, Cody Rhodes just to name a few.
Randy Orton is a top guy for a reason. There's a reason why legends worked with him and put him over. He's worked with names like Hogan, Taker, Foley, Flair.
I don't think Orton is insecure about anything.
He's in his late thirties now. He has and needs to work smart.
And wellness violations? Okay... apparently it's okay when RVD or Jeff Hardy or others do it but because it's Randy it's such a big deal?
Orton would out draw any independent wrestler right now in any market. I don't see how that could even be debated. Plus... Indy guys dream of making it in WWE. Orton has made it in WWE. So he doesn't need the Indy's.
Orton is an all world talent. Without question.
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Post by blissfan4life on May 16, 2017 8:34:32 GMT -5
IMO Legend Killer Randy Orton was the best Orton.
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Post by J12 on May 16, 2017 14:33:35 GMT -5
He's still one of the most fluid workers I've ever seen. In my opinion, I think people confuse his "lack" of things in the ring with how he makes everything look so effortless. And I still don't see why him protecting himself in the ring is a bad thing. Why would anyone want to take unnecessary risks in a business that is so dangerous to begin with? Family doesn't always make you a top star. Joe Henning, Ted Debiase Jr, Cody Rhodes just to name a few. Randy Orton is a top guy for a reason. There's a reason why legends worked with him and put him over. He's worked with names like Hogan, Taker, Foley, Flair. I don't think Orton is insecure about anything. He's in his late thirties now. He has and needs to work smart. And wellness violations? Okay... apparently it's okay when RVD or Jeff Hardy or others do it but because it's Randy it's such a big deal? Orton would out draw any independent wrestler right now in any market. I don't see how that could even be debated. Plus... Indy guys dream of making it in WWE. Orton has made it in WWE. So he doesn't need the Indy's. Orton is an all world talent. Without question. The point remains: Randy Orton is the wrong guy to be touting this message. He's coming from a point of privilege. He is, as WWE so often likes to put it, made to be a pro wrestler. He's got the size, the look, the pedigree, and the athletic ability. He was born with the silver spoon of wrestling in his mouth, so to speak. Most guys who come up in the business, who have to work in bingo halls to get themselves over, don't have that luxury. And they've popularized a polarizing style that I certainly agree has its issues, just as Orton pointed out. But, like others, you're pointing out a lot of net positives about Randy Orton that came about early in his career when people weren't being critical of his motivation or lack thereof, or at least weren't doing so with merit. I don't see anyone debating that Randy Orton wasn't, at one time, a top level talent deserving of praise and star positioning. Thus far, no one has been able to point out anything objectively memorable involving Randy Orton in the last 5-7 years with the exception of a few creative RKO spots. If Randy Orton worked the same style in 2002 that he does today, I very much doubt we'd be talking about him as a perennial main eventer. In all likelihood, he'd be more along the lines of a Axel/Dibiase/Rhodes. There's is undoubtedly something to do be said about working hard to get yourself over and then working smarter to increase longevity, but Orton has taken that latter advice to an extreme. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 14:56:04 GMT -5
He's still one of the most fluid workers I've ever seen. In my opinion, I think people confuse his "lack" of things in the ring with how he makes everything look so effortless. And I still don't see why him protecting himself in the ring is a bad thing. Why would anyone want to take unnecessary risks in a business that is so dangerous to begin with? Family doesn't always make you a top star. Joe Henning, Ted Debiase Jr, Cody Rhodes just to name a few. Randy Orton is a top guy for a reason. There's a reason why legends worked with him and put him over. He's worked with names like Hogan, Taker, Foley, Flair. I don't think Orton is insecure about anything. He's in his late thirties now. He has and needs to work smart. And wellness violations? Okay... apparently it's okay when RVD or Jeff Hardy or others do it but because it's Randy it's such a big deal? Orton would out draw any independent wrestler right now in any market. I don't see how that could even be debated. Plus... Indy guys dream of making it in WWE. Orton has made it in WWE. So he doesn't need the Indy's. Orton is an all world talent. Without question. The point remains: Randy Orton is the wrong guy to be touting this message. He's coming from a point of privilege. He is, as WWE so often likes to put it, made to be a pro wrestler. He's got the size, the look, the pedigree, and the athletic ability. He was born with the silver spoon of wrestling in his mouth, so to speak. Most guys who come up in the business, who have to work in bingo halls to get themselves over, don't have that luxury. And they've popularized a polarizing style that I certainly agree has its issues, just as Orton pointed out. But, like others, you're pointing out a lot of net positives about Randy Orton that came about early in his career when people weren't being critical of his motivation or lack thereof, or at least weren't doing so with merit. I don't see anyone debating that Randy Orton wasn't, at one time, a top level talent deserving of praise and star positioning. Thus far, no one has been able to point out anything objectively memorable involving Randy Orton in the last 5-7 years with the exception of a few creative RKO spots. If Randy Orton worked the same style in 2002 that he does today, I very much doubt we'd be talking about him as a perennial main eventer. In all likelihood, he'd be more along the lines of a Axel/Dibiase/Rhodes. There's is undoubtedly something to do be said about working hard to get yourself over and then working smarter to increase longevity, but Orton has taken that latter advice to an extreme. That is all fine and dandy for your opinion on him, however, he has hundreds of thousands if not millions of fans that would surely beg to differ. |
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Post by J12 on May 16, 2017 15:16:30 GMT -5
The point remains: Randy Orton is the wrong guy to be touting this message. He's coming from a point of privilege. He is, as WWE so often likes to put it, made to be a pro wrestler. He's got the size, the look, the pedigree, and the athletic ability. He was born with the silver spoon of wrestling in his mouth, so to speak. Most guys who come up in the business, who have to work in bingo halls to get themselves over, don't have that luxury. And they've popularized a polarizing style that I certainly agree has its issues, just as Orton pointed out. But, like others, you're pointing out a lot of net positives about Randy Orton that came about early in his career when people weren't being critical of his motivation or lack thereof, or at least weren't doing so with merit. I don't see anyone debating that Randy Orton wasn't, at one time, a top level talent deserving of praise and star positioning. Thus far, no one has been able to point out anything objectively memorable involving Randy Orton in the last 5-7 years with the exception of a few creative RKO spots. If Randy Orton worked the same style in 2002 that he does today, I very much doubt we'd be talking about him as a perennial main eventer. In all likelihood, he'd be more along the lines of a Axel/Dibiase/Rhodes. There's is undoubtedly something to do be said about working hard to get yourself over and then working smarter to increase longevity, but Orton has taken that latter advice to an extreme. That is all fine and dandy for your opinion on him, however, he has hundreds of thousands if not millions of fans that would surely beg to differ. I don't really see how that's at all relevant. Orton is a star who has been pushed like a star for 15 years. Of course he has fans, it'd be a pretty big problem if he didn't. That's no different than the tired argument Orton was trying to make in his "apology": "my company makes way more money than your company, so that means my style must inherently be better." Any smart observer would quickly note that there's a ton of inertia in place that grants Orton the gravitas to make such narrow-minded statement and have it go largely unchecked. In truth, I think both sides of this argument could learn something from this debate, though I'm not sure either will. Indy wrestling has certainly devolved to an extent and its quality could benefit greatly from variation and psychology. Randy, meanwhile, just got himself more invested (inadvertently or not) in the wrestling community than he has been in quite some time. Who knows how it shakes out. |
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Post by BCizzle on May 16, 2017 15:38:04 GMT -5
There is a happy medium between high flying flippy little guys with no psychology and being a monotone master of the chin lock.
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Truth HuRts
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Post by Truth HuRts on May 16, 2017 20:26:18 GMT -5
He's still one of the most fluid workers I've ever seen. In my opinion, I think people confuse his "lack" of things in the ring with how he makes everything look so effortless. And I still don't see why him protecting himself in the ring is a bad thing. Why would anyone want to take unnecessary risks in a business that is so dangerous to begin with? Family doesn't always make you a top star. Joe Henning, Ted Debiase Jr, Cody Rhodes just to name a few. Randy Orton is a top guy for a reason. There's a reason why legends worked with him and put him over. He's worked with names like Hogan, Taker, Foley, Flair. I don't think Orton is insecure about anything. He's in his late thirties now. He has and needs to work smart. And wellness violations? Okay... apparently it's okay when RVD or Jeff Hardy or others do it but because it's Randy it's such a big deal? Orton would out draw any independent wrestler right now in any market. I don't see how that could even be debated. Plus... Indy guys dream of making it in WWE. Orton has made it in WWE. So he doesn't need the Indy's. Orton is an all world talent. Without question. AS HE SAYS ^^^ agree with every word |
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Truth HuRts
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Joined on: Feb 6, 2017 23:50:56 GMT -5
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Post by Truth HuRts on May 16, 2017 20:29:52 GMT -5
Orton is 100% right. And seeing all the hate Orton gets it's clear he's the most under appreciated guy on the roster
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Post by Rated [R] NinJa on May 16, 2017 22:10:03 GMT -5
Orton is 100% right. And seeing all the hate Orton gets it's clear he's the most under appreciated guy on the roster lol he is nowhere near the most under appreciated guy on the roster... someone who's under appreciated wouldn't of won the Royal Rumble match infront of 60,000+ people and then go on to win the WWE title at WrestleMania. |
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Post by PJ on May 16, 2017 22:19:25 GMT -5
Orton is 100% right. And seeing all the hate Orton gets it's clear he's the most under appreciated guy on the roster lol he is nowhere near the most under appreciated guy on the roster... someone who's under appreciated wouldn't of won the Royal Rumble match infront of 60,000+ people and then go on to win the WWE title at WrestleMania. I think he meant by the fans or at the very least this board. |
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Post by Rated [R] NinJa on May 16, 2017 22:27:13 GMT -5
lol he is nowhere near the most under appreciated guy on the roster... someone who's under appreciated wouldn't of won the Royal Rumble match infront of 60,000+ people and then go on to win the WWE title at WrestleMania. I think he meant by the fans or at the very least this board. Oh then even so, a lot of people in this thread have stated how good he was so I don't understand how he's suddenly the most under appreciated wrestler on the roster just because a few people disagree with his views on Indy wrestling lol. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 13:25:52 GMT -5
Randy was 100% accurate on this one! |
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Post by POOR-ly Cuyler on May 17, 2017 14:15:45 GMT -5
Lol this statement is very "let them eat cake."-ish.
Randy never had to pay dues and has always been with the "top" company. He sounds like spoiled royalty saying "you do this to make it, lol, ur so dumb. Why u not just work safe in the WWE forever and have JBL drool over you. Lulz..."
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Post by marino13 on May 17, 2017 15:44:13 GMT -5
I think the way Jerry Lawler summed it up helps understand the point Orton & Rogers was trying to make. He was just much more articulate in saying it...
"I think that the problem Rip [Rogers] and Randy [Orton] have is what the young guys think they need to do to get noticed. It's what the young guys do in these matches that bothers guys who have been in the business for a while. The young guys, like they said, they have a tendency to go out there and try to squeeze in every single move that they know. Every dive. Every flip. Every flop. Everything they can put in one 15-minute match. So in order to do that, if you are going to put all those moves in, you're not going to have time to sell anything. It's just going to be one move after another until the match is over.
"That is not the way wrestling became what it is today. Not what I think veterans look at and not what the business is supposed to be. It's not that really entertaining for fans. I think that's Rip's and Randy's point they are trying to make there."
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Post by POOR-ly Cuyler on May 17, 2017 16:17:58 GMT -5
Ok but where was the story an selling in the Mania match? It was an RKO and a lazy ass cover from a complacent c***
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Post by tylerbreezee on May 17, 2017 17:18:53 GMT -5
Ok but where was the story an selling in the Mania match? It was an RKO and a lazy ass cover from a complacent c*** You're going off one match? Forreal? Lol, and how can you complain about the RKO. It's basically the only finishing move currently in WWE that people don't kick out of so you shouldn't expect a kick out fest in any Orton match. |
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Post by POOR-ly Cuyler on May 17, 2017 17:27:37 GMT -5
Ok but where was the story an selling in the Mania match? It was an RKO and a lazy ass cover from a complacent c*** You're going off one match? Forreal? Lol, and how can you complain about the RKO. It's basically the only finishing move currently in WWE that people don't kick out of so you shouldn't expect a kick out fest in any Orton match. We endured months of Randy working with Bray only for him to go "nope lol, no powers over me." But yeah that young up and comer Randy should get one over that boring old character Bray. "Oh were not putting Bray over? Just retcon the storyline where Randys eyes glowed and saw twisted images in mirrors an stuff. Just ignore that. He was never under control..." |
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Post by SodaGuy on May 17, 2017 17:33:53 GMT -5
You're going off one match? Forreal? Lol, and how can you complain about the RKO. It's basically the only finishing move currently in WWE that people don't kick out of so you shouldn't expect a kick out fest in any Orton match. We endured months of Randy working with Bray only for him to go "nope lol, no powers over me." But yeah that young up and comer Randy should get one over that boring old character Bray. "Oh were not putting Bray over? Just retcon the storyline where Randys eyes glowed and saw twisted images in mirrors an stuff. Just ignore that. He was never under control..." You're complaining about the booking of a storyline like Randy Orton had anything to with the booking or who actually went over in the storyline. |
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Post by tylerbreezee on May 17, 2017 17:59:19 GMT -5
You're going off one match? Forreal? Lol, and how can you complain about the RKO. It's basically the only finishing move currently in WWE that people don't kick out of so you shouldn't expect a kick out fest in any Orton match. We endured months of Randy working with Bray only for him to go "nope lol, no powers over me." But yeah that young up and comer Randy should get one over that boring old character Bray. "Oh were not putting Bray over? Just retcon the storyline where Randys eyes glowed and saw twisted images in mirrors an stuff. Just ignore that. He was never under control..." Are you just starting to watch WWE? Bray loses the big ones in basically every feud he's in. Nothing that happened is new. |
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