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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 16:55:16 GMT -5
Im talking about your average run of the mill WWE fan who may not scour the internet. I don't watch as much as I use to but it seems like a decent majority just pop for his entrance and then nothing. It's apparent you don't pay attention. Yes everyone loves him. I just went to the Glens Falls to see a SmackDown Live show which is a small town filled with people who only watch WWE and he was cheered endlessly. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it sucks
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Post by 1992 on Jun 8, 2017 14:03:28 GMT -5
No. Scream-singing while furiously chanting ones name in between instrumental choruses is an internationally recognized symbol of disinterest. Title of the thread is talking about casual fans. Oh gotcha. Wasn't aware non-casual fans didn't attend live Smackdown events or participate in crowd chants.
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Post by J12 on Jun 8, 2017 15:01:34 GMT -5
The crowd seems to be into him just fine, but he appears to be trying to merge into WWE's lane rather than stand out. Part of that, of course, is because everyone has to become "WWE-ized" when they hit the main roster. To me, Nakamura has already lost a lot of luster, and his performances haven't really conjured up any intense emotion. He doesn't seem particularly motivated, and that's not just a main roster thing. Outside of his debut match with Sami Zayn, he's had a lot good moments and good matches, but nothing I would consider great.
It's way too early to definitively call him a disappointment or place blame squarely on him or the company, but I don't think things are going particularly well thus far.
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StylesP1
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Post by StylesP1 on Jun 8, 2017 16:20:29 GMT -5
Title of the thread is talking about casual fans. Oh gotcha. Wasn't aware non-casual fans didn't attend live Smackdown events or participate in crowd chants. No one said that, but it's clearly the male adults doing those chants, as it was in NXT, so yeah not casual
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Post by 1992 on Jun 8, 2017 16:34:21 GMT -5
Oh gotcha. Wasn't aware non-casual fans didn't attend live Smackdown events or participate in crowd chants. No one said that, but it's clearly the male adults doing those chants, as it was in NXT, so yeah not casual Hmm judging from every other crowd shot I've ever seen looks to me like it's pretty much a majority of the crowd participating, so yeah, not clearly not just the adult males. But regardless either way, IF it is only the minority of adult males participating in it, they're doing such an excellent job drowning out and vastly overpowering any other majority section and giving Nakamura usually the strongest reaction of anyone else on the card sans for AJ Styles (who's arguable only getting cheered "by adult males" too) then there's obviously no need to pay any other section of the crowd any attention.
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Post by rowdy1971 on Jun 8, 2017 16:47:11 GMT -5
A majority of these call ups from NXT like Bayley, The Vaudvillians, Nakamura, and a couple others are like the old punk rock days. They were very popular with the minority of the people who listened to them, or in this case, watched them on NXT. Now that they are "mainstream" they are looked at as sell outs and the majority just doesn't get them. The success rate for NXT to WWE is very slim.
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StylesP1
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Post by StylesP1 on Jun 8, 2017 17:19:58 GMT -5
No one said that, but it's clearly the male adults doing those chants, as it was in NXT, so yeah not casual Hmm judging from every other crowd shot I've ever seen looks to me like it's pretty much a majority of the crowd participating, so yeah, not clearly not just the adult males. But regardless either way, IF it is only the minority of adult males participating in it, they're doing such an excellent job drowning out and vastly overpowering any other majority section and giving Nakamura usually the strongest reaction of anyone else on the card sans for AJ Styles (who's arguable only getting cheered "by adult males" too) then there's obviously no need to pay any other section of the crowd any attention. That is what happens, as it happens when Cena and Reigns are getting booed, or do you think the casual fans are doing that too? Just because they're the loudest at shows doesn't mean you should cater to them, so yeah
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Jun 8, 2017 17:42:55 GMT -5
A majority of these call ups from NXT like Bayley, The Vaudvillians, Nakamura, and a couple others are like the old punk rock days. They were very popular with the minority of the people who listened to them, or in this case, watched them on NXT. Now that they are "mainstream" they are looked at as sell outs and the majority just doesn't get them. The success rate for NXT to WWE is very slim. My thoughts exactly! It would be like Blink 182, Green Day and Offspring being hated because they are on the radio, but play the same music as NOFX, Pennywise and Bouncing Souls. Yet, they all appear on the same Warped Tour events. But WWE audience is probably 50/50 with who watches NXT and who doesn't. I know some people who still buy the WWE PPVs because they don't care to watch NXT. So to each their own I guess.
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Post by J12 on Jun 8, 2017 18:28:10 GMT -5
A majority of these call ups from NXT like Bayley, The Vaudvillians, Nakamura, and a couple others are like the old punk rock days. They were very popular with the minority of the people who listened to them, or in this case, watched them on NXT. Now that they are "mainstream" they are looked at as sell outs and the majority just doesn't get them. The success rate for NXT to WWE is very slim. I understand your point, but that part isn't particularly true, given that nearly every new talent to come to the main roster in the last few years passed through NXT first, with the exception of AJ Styles, Karl Anderson, and Braun Strowman. There have been plenty of success stories in that group. It also shouldn't be ignored that the booking, and storytelling in NXT is vastly superior to WWE. A lot of these acts were cultivated in a thriving creative environment and flourished because of that, now they're floundering in a toxic environment and having to get over with a new audience without giving that audience a chance to see their rise to prominence, which can't be repeated because a bunch of fans already saw it in NXT. It's a really weird, and increasingly problematic scenario. The people who watch NXT and grew to love these characters are frustrated because none of the things they loved about them organically transferred over to the main roster, and all of the people who don't watch NXT are sitting around saying, "what's so great about this guy/girl?" because they never got to see their come up and journey to the big stage. The audience is at varying levels of the character's story and WWE doesn't seem to know which portion to cater to.
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Post by 1992 on Jun 8, 2017 20:45:04 GMT -5
Hmm judging from every other crowd shot I've ever seen looks to me like it's pretty much a majority of the crowd participating, so yeah, not clearly not just the adult males. But regardless either way, IF it is only the minority of adult males participating in it, they're doing such an excellent job drowning out and vastly overpowering any other majority section and giving Nakamura usually the strongest reaction of anyone else on the card sans for AJ Styles (who's arguable only getting cheered "by adult males" too) then there's obviously no need to pay any other section of the crowd any attention. That is what happens, as it happens when Cena and Reigns are getting booed, or do you think the casual fans are doing that too? Just because they're the loudest at shows doesn't mean you should cater to them, so yeah Cena and Reigns are null examples here as they draw massive reactions from both sides being extreme cheers from one and extreme boos from the other. Nakamura isn't a drawing a completely polarizing reaction like they do. About 5 years ago there was this hugely popular notion/theory/argument that the "smart crowd" or "adult males" as we've been calling them here made up maybe 5% of the WWE audience. This theory was abruptly crushed after the rise of the likes of CM Punk and Daniel Bryan and has only been further driven into the shadows with the rise of NXT and the Indy influx into WWE. Now you've got guys like AJ Styles and Prince Devitt (to name a few, Nakamura included) being received better than and are selling the same amount or even higher #s of merch and Network subscriptions than WWE darlings like John Cena and Roman Reigns due to the supposedly "minority adult fanbase". It's much safer and more feasible to call the general WWE fanbase a 50/50 or maybe even 55/45 split in favor of the smarter audience these days. So who SHOULD WWE cater to? And why? Based on what? A baseless assumption that a wrestler you personally don't like might not being received well by a theoretical, most likely fictitious "majority" audience?
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StylesP1
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Post by StylesP1 on Jun 8, 2017 22:57:45 GMT -5
That is what happens, as it happens when Cena and Reigns are getting booed, or do you think the casual fans are doing that too? Just because they're the loudest at shows doesn't mean you should cater to them, so yeah Cena and Reigns are null examples here as they draw massive reactions from both sides being extreme cheers from one and extreme boos from the other. Nakamura isn't a drawing a completely polarizing reaction like they do. About 5 years ago there was this hugely popular notion/theory/argument that the "smart crowd" or "adult males" as we've been calling them here made up maybe 5% of the WWE audience. This theory was abruptly crushed after the rise of the likes of CM Punk and Daniel Bryan and has only been further driven into the shadows with the rise of NXT and the Indy influx into WWE. Now you've got guys like AJ Styles and Prince Devitt (to name a few, Nakamura included) being received better than and are selling the same amount or even higher #s of merch and Network subscriptions than WWE darlings like John Cena and Roman Reigns due to the supposedly "minority adult fanbase". It's much safer and more feasible to call the general WWE fanbase a 50/50 or maybe even 55/45 split in favor of the smarter audience these days. So who SHOULD WWE cater to? And why? Based on what? A baseless assumption that a wrestler you personally don't like might not being received well by a theoretical, most likely fictitious "majority" audience? Nah Roman usually just gets booed nowadays, despite children and not "smart fans" liking him so goes to show who makes the most noise doesn't equal the majority of the audience CM Punk and Bryan clearly got over with children and were good for ratings unlike the current "influx of indy guys" who have seen the lowest in history Finn Balor or AJ Styles don't outsell Cena or Roman If it was 50/50 NXT should be getting near the same amount of people watching as RAW does they should cater to casual fans, as they give them ratings. History has shown they like guys with character who can cut promos, Nakmaura is neither of those
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Post by 1992 on Jun 8, 2017 23:53:43 GMT -5
Cena and Reigns are null examples here as they draw massive reactions from both sides being extreme cheers from one and extreme boos from the other. Nakamura isn't a drawing a completely polarizing reaction like they do. About 5 years ago there was this hugely popular notion/theory/argument that the "smart crowd" or "adult males" as we've been calling them here made up maybe 5% of the WWE audience. This theory was abruptly crushed after the rise of the likes of CM Punk and Daniel Bryan and has only been further driven into the shadows with the rise of NXT and the Indy influx into WWE. Now you've got guys like AJ Styles and Prince Devitt (to name a few, Nakamura included) being received better than and are selling the same amount or even higher #s of merch and Network subscriptions than WWE darlings like John Cena and Roman Reigns due to the supposedly "minority adult fanbase". It's much safer and more feasible to call the general WWE fanbase a 50/50 or maybe even 55/45 split in favor of the smarter audience these days. So who SHOULD WWE cater to? And why? Based on what? A baseless assumption that a wrestler you personally don't like might not being received well by a theoretical, most likely fictitious "majority" audience? Nah Roman usually just gets booed nowadays, despite children and not "smart fans" liking him so goes to show who makes the most noise doesn't equal the majority of the audience CM Punk and Bryan clearly got over with children and were good for ratings unlike the current "influx of indy guys" who have seen the lowest in history Finn Balor or AJ Styles don't outsell Cena or Roman If it was 50/50 NXT should be getting near the same amount of people watching as RAW does they should cater to casual fans, as they give them ratings. History has shown they like guys with character who can cut promos, Nakmaura is neither of those So one half voids out the other? Or...what exactly? The point you're trying to make about kids and casual fans liking/supporting Roman isn't really making a lot of sense to me. Actually no. Punk's segments during his main event push drew alarmingly low numbers and Bryan's weren't exceptional either. The episode you're referring to (second lowest ratings in history btw) featured a main event with 3 "indy guys" (Joe, Rollins, Balor) along with WWE homegrown mainstays (Wyatt and Reigns). If the indy guys are doing record low numbers then so are the WWE homegrowns as they were almost equally represented in that main event. I was mostly leaning towards doing close numbers to those two. As of 3 months ago Roman was the #1 merch guy according to online reports, but it's hard to imagine someone like AJ Styles or Kevin Owens being far behind as they have a new t-shirt out every few weeks to a month. WWE isn't going to invest so much in characters that aren't making serious moves at the concession stands. NXT is only available via a specialized, specific subscribed online service while Raw and SDL are both available on basic cable. No way to compare/measure those numbers. Null point. EDIT: On the above point, just to play devil's advocate, the WWE Network is sitting at about 2 million subscribers while Raw sits about 3 million viewers weekly and SDL sits around 2.6 million weekly. Lets assume everyone is subscribing solely to watch NXT (which is a ridiculous assumption in itself but just for arguments sake) a show that costs $10 a month to watch is barely doing less than 1 million views than Raw and 400,000 viewers than SDL which are broadcasted via a service that 85-90% of the United States has. Pretty alarming. But again, all still a null point as there are too many variables to fairly measure those numbers. Plus in the end the Network subscriptions about lineup with the Raw/SDL ratings meaning WWE is probably maintaining a strong core fanbase of around 2-3 million viewers, 2 million of which are willing to pay out of pocket every month for additional content and PPVs. Can you provide any stats/graphs to show that which type of household/fanbase the bulk of WWE's ratings are coming out of since you seem exceptionally confident it's "casual" viewers? Very interested in seeing where you're getting your info from. Promos are hit or miss with him due to the accent. Saying he has no character is just corny and borderline trolling. Not gonna bother with that. Nonsense.
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StylesP1
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Post by StylesP1 on Jun 9, 2017 0:09:28 GMT -5
Nah Roman usually just gets booed nowadays, despite children and not "smart fans" liking him so goes to show who makes the most noise doesn't equal the majority of the audience CM Punk and Bryan clearly got over with children and were good for ratings unlike the current "influx of indy guys" who have seen the lowest in history Finn Balor or AJ Styles don't outsell Cena or Roman If it was 50/50 NXT should be getting near the same amount of people watching as RAW does they should cater to casual fans, as they give them ratings. History has shown they like guys with character who can cut promos, Nakmaura is neither of those So one half voids out the other? Or...what exactly? The point you're trying to make about kids and casual fans liking/supporting Roman isn't really making a lot of sense to me. Actually no. Punk's segments during his main event push drew alarmingly low numbers and Bryan's weren't exceptional either. The episode you're referring to (second lowest ratings in history btw) featured a main event with 3 "indy guys" (Joe, Rollins, Balor) along with WWE homegrown mainstays (Wyatt and Reigns). If the indy guys are doing record low numbers then so are the WWE homegrowns as they were almost equally represented in that main event. I was mostly leaning towards doing close numbers to those two. As of 3 months ago Roman was the #1 merch guy according to online reports, but it's hard to imagine someone like AJ Styles or Kevin Owens being far behind as they have a new t-shirt out every few weeks to a month. WWE isn't going to invest so much in characters that aren't making serious moves at the concession stands. NXT is only available via a specialized, specific subscribed online service while Raw and SDL are both available on basic cable. No way to compare/measure those numbers. Null point. Can you provide any stats/graphs to show that which type of household/fanbase the bulk of WWE's ratings are coming out of since you seem exceptionally confident it's "casual" viewers? Very interested in seeing where you're getting your info from. Promos are hit or miss with him due to the accent. Saying he has no character is just corny and borderline trolling. Not gonna bother with that. Nonsense. You're saying "because the crowd sing Nakamuras theme he's over with the casuals", but when the crowd boos Roman that's not the casuals, inconsistent No, because when WWE featured homegrown talent more the ratings were higher, but when they've started pushing many of the indy guys they've gone lower. Notice in the episode you're referring to there's more indy guys then homegrown You didn't say "close to", you clearly said "or even higher #s of merch" You were saying smart fans count for 50% of the viewers, I'm pretty sure most "smart fans" have the network lol No statistics are needed to realise most of WWE's viewers are more interested in characters then workrate, considering ratings were higher when characters were the main focus rather than workrate "Promos are hit or miss" hahahaha he hasn't had one good promo, most Nakamura fans I've seen even admit his speaking is crap, you're borderline trolling at this point. Nonesense.
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Post by 1992 on Jun 9, 2017 0:44:22 GMT -5
So one half voids out the other? Or...what exactly? The point you're trying to make about kids and casual fans liking/supporting Roman isn't really making a lot of sense to me. Actually no. Punk's segments during his main event push drew alarmingly low numbers and Bryan's weren't exceptional either. The episode you're referring to (second lowest ratings in history btw) featured a main event with 3 "indy guys" (Joe, Rollins, Balor) along with WWE homegrown mainstays (Wyatt and Reigns). If the indy guys are doing record low numbers then so are the WWE homegrowns as they were almost equally represented in that main event. I was mostly leaning towards doing close numbers to those two. As of 3 months ago Roman was the #1 merch guy according to online reports, but it's hard to imagine someone like AJ Styles or Kevin Owens being far behind as they have a new t-shirt out every few weeks to a month. WWE isn't going to invest so much in characters that aren't making serious moves at the concession stands. NXT is only available via a specialized, specific subscribed online service while Raw and SDL are both available on basic cable. No way to compare/measure those numbers. Null point. Can you provide any stats/graphs to show that which type of household/fanbase the bulk of WWE's ratings are coming out of since you seem exceptionally confident it's "casual" viewers? Very interested in seeing where you're getting your info from. Promos are hit or miss with him due to the accent. Saying he has no character is just corny and borderline trolling. Not gonna bother with that. Nonsense. You're saying "because the crowd sing Nakamuras theme he's over with the casuals", but when the crowd boos Roman that's not the casuals, inconsistent No, because when WWE featured homegrown talent more the ratings were higher, but when they've started pushing many of the indy guys they've gone lower. Notice in the episode you're referring to there's more indy guys then homegrown You didn't say "close to", you clearly said "or even higher #s of merch" You our were saying smart fans count for 50% of the viewers, I'm pretty sure most "smart fans" have the network lol No statistics are needed to realise most of WWE's viewers are more interested in characters then workrate, considering ratings were higher when characters were the main focus rather than workrate "Promos are hit or miss" hahahaha he hasn't had one good promo, most Nakamura fans I've seen even admit his speaking is crap, you're borderline trolling at this point Sorry, when did I say this about Reigns boos and Nakamuras singing? No not exactly, here are the average ratings of Raw from 2007 to 2015... 2007 - 3.63
2008 - 3.28
2009 - 3.59
2010 - 3.28
2011 - 3.21
2012 - 3.00
2013 - 3.01
2014 - 2.95
2015 - 2.64Pretty much fluctuates up and down. The numbers were slightly higher in the earlier years (not significantly though) listed but don't really improve much and start to drop off around 2012 when WWE roster was loaded with nothing but homegrown stars (Cena, Orton, Brock, Rock, etc) and they had very few indy guys (Punk, Bryan who you claimed were "good for ratings" unlike today's stars who are doing around the same numbers as they did during that period along with Cena, Orton, etc) Yes there was 1 more indy guy. Lol. Do you actually believe adding Big Show/Miz/Sheamus to that 5-way match instead of Joe/Balor/Rollins would have changed the ratings? Or even swapping out all 3 for the others? No I clearly said "are selling the same amount or even higher #s" because neither of us know. All we have to go off is the info that Roman was the #1 merch guy 3 months ago. Doubtful anyone has changed that but its possible someone like AJ isn't far behind in numbers. New Day also outsold both Roman and Cena at some point recently. This isn't 2007 anymore. Other guys are moving merchandise besides Cena. Which "characters" were drawing these legendary ratings you keep referring too? Unless you're referring to the Attitude Era which is so far gone and such a different place in time that it can't fairly be compared here. Unfortunately I'm still going to need to see some form of stats to help substantiate your claim as what your saying + the numbers I offered up above don't add up. Nope not trolling at all. In my opinion, trolling is saying something obviously hokey just to get a rise out of someone (example: "AJ Styles can't work to save his life LOLOLOLOL") which is in par with saying Nakamura has "no character". Just corny stuff really.
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StylesP1
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Post by StylesP1 on Jun 9, 2017 1:07:42 GMT -5
You're saying "because the crowd sing Nakamuras theme he's over with the casuals", but when the crowd boos Roman that's not the casuals, inconsistent No, because when WWE featured homegrown talent more the ratings were higher, but when they've started pushing many of the indy guys they've gone lower. Notice in the episode you're referring to there's more indy guys then homegrown You didn't say "close to", you clearly said "or even higher #s of merch" You our were saying smart fans count for 50% of the viewers, I'm pretty sure most "smart fans" have the network lol No statistics are needed to realise most of WWE's viewers are more interested in characters then workrate, considering ratings were higher when characters were the main focus rather than workrate "Promos are hit or miss" hahahaha he hasn't had one good promo, most Nakamura fans I've seen even admit his speaking is crap, you're borderline trolling at this point Sorry, when did I say this about Reigns boos and Nakamuras singing? No not exactly, here are the average ratings of Raw from 2007 to 2015... 2007 - 3.63
2008 - 3.28
2009 - 3.59
2010 - 3.28
2011 - 3.21
2012 - 3.00
2013 - 3.01
2014 - 2.95
2015 - 2.64Pretty much fluctuates up and down. The numbers were slightly higher in the earlier years (not significantly though) listed but don't really improve much and start to drop off around 2012 when WWE roster was loaded with nothing but homegrown stars (Cena, Orton, Brock, Rock, etc) and they had very few indy guys (Punk, Bryan who you claimed were "good for ratings" unlike today's stars who are doing around the same numbers as they did during that period along with Cena, Orton, etc) Yes there was 1 more indy guy. Lol. Do you actually believe adding Big Show/Miz/Sheamus to that 5-way match instead of Joe/Balor/Rollins would have changed the ratings? Or even swapping out all 3 for the others? No I clearly said "are selling the same amount or even higher #s" because neither of us know. All we have to go off is the info that Roman was the #1 merch guy 3 months ago. Doubtful anyone has changed that but its possible someone like AJ isn't far behind in numbers. New Day also outsold both Roman and Cena at some point recently. This isn't 2007 anymore. Other guys are moving merchandise besides Cena. Which "characters" were drawing these legendary ratings you keep referring too? Unless you're referring to the Attitude Era which is so far gone and such a different place in time that it can't fairly be compared here. Unfortunately I'm still going to need to see some form of stats to help substantiate your claim as what your saying + the numbers I offered up above don't add up. Nope not trolling at all. In my opinion, trolling is saying something obviously hokey just to get a rise out of someone (example: "AJ Styles can't work to save his life LOLOLOLOL") which is in par with saying Nakamura has "no character". Just corny stuff really. What's not adding up? Those stats you just provided literally show as more indy guys came in the ratings got lower lmao New day outsold Roman and Cena...and? How's that relevant? They're pretty much the opposite of a guy like Nakamura while they go of segments he goes off "workrate", not sure what you're getting at AE can't be used because? The main stars back then such as the Rock still draw numbers today whenever they appear, I doubt people have suddenly stopped liking larger than life characters. I'm pretty sure you can look up today's ratings compared to then No ones saying anything to "get a rise", I assumed most people don't take wrestling that seriously to get angry over someone insulting their favourite lol
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Post by 1992 on Jun 9, 2017 1:39:54 GMT -5
Sorry, when did I say this about Reigns boos and Nakamuras singing? No not exactly, here are the average ratings of Raw from 2007 to 2015... 2007 - 3.63
2008 - 3.28
2009 - 3.59
2010 - 3.28
2011 - 3.21
2012 - 3.00
2013 - 3.01
2014 - 2.95
2015 - 2.64Pretty much fluctuates up and down. The numbers were slightly higher in the earlier years (not significantly though) listed but don't really improve much and start to drop off around 2012 when WWE roster was loaded with nothing but homegrown stars (Cena, Orton, Brock, Rock, etc) and they had very few indy guys (Punk, Bryan who you claimed were "good for ratings" unlike today's stars who are doing around the same numbers as they did during that period along with Cena, Orton, etc) Yes there was 1 more indy guy. Lol. Do you actually believe adding Big Show/Miz/Sheamus to that 5-way match instead of Joe/Balor/Rollins would have changed the ratings? Or even swapping out all 3 for the others? No I clearly said "are selling the same amount or even higher #s" because neither of us know. All we have to go off is the info that Roman was the #1 merch guy 3 months ago. Doubtful anyone has changed that but its possible someone like AJ isn't far behind in numbers. New Day also outsold both Roman and Cena at some point recently. This isn't 2007 anymore. Other guys are moving merchandise besides Cena. Which "characters" were drawing these legendary ratings you keep referring too? Unless you're referring to the Attitude Era which is so far gone and such a different place in time that it can't fairly be compared here. Unfortunately I'm still going to need to see some form of stats to help substantiate your claim as what your saying + the numbers I offered up above don't add up. Nope not trolling at all. In my opinion, trolling is saying something obviously hokey just to get a rise out of someone (example: "AJ Styles can't work to save his life LOLOLOLOL") which is in par with saying Nakamura has "no character". Just corny stuff really. What's not adding up? Those stats you just provided literally show as more indy guys came in the ratings got lower lmao New day outsold Roman and Cena...and? How's that relevant? They're pretty much the opposite of a guy like Nakamura while they go of segments he goes off "workrate", not sure what you're getting at AE can't be used because? The main stars back then such as the Rock still draw numbers today whenever they appear, I doubt people have suddenly stopped liking larger than life characters. I'm pretty sure you can look up today's ratings compared to then No ones saying anything to "get a rise", I assumed most people don't take wrestling that seriously to get angry over someone insulting their favourite lol The numbers directly contradict you, not me. Those years were dominated by homegrown WWE guys with the exception of Punk/Bryan, who you yourself endorsed as "good for ratings". It's relevant because you're acting as if Roman/Cena are these absolute definitive merchandise titans who lead everyone by miles when in reality the newer guys like AJ are catching up quickly in numbers, the way New Day, a relatively newer act, outsold both guys. Also not sure what "work-rate" has to with selling t-shirts? The comparisons between New Day and Nakamura? Why not mention from the get-go that the 20 year old AE was what you were referring to? You were leading on as if you were talking about just 5-10 years ago before the indy guys started popping up in big numbers. I'm also not going to bother explaining why comparing a product from 2 decades ago to a modern day product doesn't work, especially for something as fluid and constantly evolving as pro wrestling. You're talking about an entire generational leap in terms of culture and technology between the AE to today. Not angry in the least. I'm the one offering the numbers for my arguments. You're the one clearly bothered, ending everything with "lol/lmao" or a smiling emojicon as if that's validation for what you've previously said. I greatly enjoy friendly debating in my spare time, which is why I at least try to base my points in some form of logic or offer actual hard numbers. This isn't anything personal. I like getting others perspectives, but if you're just upset that I'm defending Nakamura and are looking to win an argument feel free to let me know now. No big deal. EDIT: Also fun fact, Shinsuke doesn't even crack my top 10 all time list.
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Post by J12 on Jun 9, 2017 11:34:01 GMT -5
Merchandise sales are really a poor statistic for any argument. The number one promoted babyface in the company at a given time is almost always going to be the top merchandise seller, with occasional, brief exceptions because they typically have the largest amount of real estate at the merchandise counter at live events. You can't compare Roman's sales to say, AJ Styles, because Roman is going to have two shirts at the stands to AJ's one. Additionally, Cena and Reigns merch gets sold cross-brand at live events, and the rest of the roster usually does not. It's never a fair comparison.
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Post by ThugSuperstar on Jun 9, 2017 12:52:00 GMT -5
They bring guys up from NXT to try and capitalize on their popularity for two weeks and then realize they have no idea what to do with them. There's zero long-term booking anymore. It'd be one thing if it was only Nakamura who was failing, but the list is endless - Bayley, Dana Brooke, Nia Jax, American Alpha, Apollo Crews, Vaudevillians, Sami Zayn, Tye Dillinger, Sasha Banks, Bray Wyatt, etc. There have been way, way more guys who the company has ruined after calling up from NXT than there have been success stories. The only people who can really be called a success from NXT are Rollins, Owens, Charlotte, and maybe Joe and Becky? I mean, I can't think of anyone else that jumps out. The verdict is still out on Finn since they clearly have no idea what to do with him. Granted, not every person they call up is going to be an A+ Superstar, but they surely should have more than they do right now.
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jun 9, 2017 13:46:35 GMT -5
They bring guys up from NXT to try and capitalize on their popularity for two weeks and then realize they have no idea what to do with them. There's zero long-term booking anymore. It'd be one thing if it was only Nakamura who was failing, but the list is endless - Bayley, Dana Brooke, Nia Jax, American Alpha, Apollo Crews, Vaudevillians, Sami Zayn, Tye Dillinger, Sasha Banks, Bray Wyatt, etc. There have been way, way more guys who the company has ruined after calling up from NXT than there have been success stories. The only people who can really be called a success from NXT are Rollins, Owens, Charlotte, and maybe Joe and Becky? I mean, I can't think of anyone else that jumps out. The verdict is still out on Finn since they clearly have no idea what to do with him. Granted, not every person they call up is going to be an A+ Superstar, but they surely should have more than they do right now. The main issue is WWE's ignorance. They believe that if someone is over and huge in NXT they will be the same on the main show but many times it has been proven wrong. The handling and booking of the star is what makes them work. Look at KO when he was brought up he was a force to be reckoned with and he immediately got in Cena's face and after that his journey began. Now look at Nakamura he debuts and then dances and fools around for weeks before having an actual match and WWE expects the casual fans to care. In my eyes when an NXT guy debuts they need a story, road and a reason why they are here. Are fans really suppose to care about AA, Tye and Crews if they randomly wrestle in matches that have no direction?
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jun 9, 2017 13:54:06 GMT -5
Cena and Reigns are null examples here as they draw massive reactions from both sides being extreme cheers from one and extreme boos from the other. Nakamura isn't a drawing a completely polarizing reaction like they do. About 5 years ago there was this hugely popular notion/theory/argument that the "smart crowd" or "adult males" as we've been calling them here made up maybe 5% of the WWE audience. This theory was abruptly crushed after the rise of the likes of CM Punk and Daniel Bryan and has only been further driven into the shadows with the rise of NXT and the Indy influx into WWE. Now you've got guys like AJ Styles and Prince Devitt (to name a few, Nakamura included) being received better than and are selling the same amount or even higher #s of merch and Network subscriptions than WWE darlings like John Cena and Roman Reigns due to the supposedly "minority adult fanbase". It's much safer and more feasible to call the general WWE fanbase a 50/50 or maybe even 55/45 split in favor of the smarter audience these days. So who SHOULD WWE cater to? And why? Based on what? A baseless assumption that a wrestler you personally don't like might not being received well by a theoretical, most likely fictitious "majority" audience? Nah Roman usually just gets booed nowadays, despite children and not "smart fans" liking him so goes to show who makes the most noise doesn't equal the majority of the audience CM Punk and Bryan clearly got over with children and were good for ratings unlike the current "influx of indy guys" who have seen the lowest in history Finn Balor or AJ Styles don't outsell Cena or Roman If it was 50/50 NXT should be getting near the same amount of people watching as RAW does they should cater to casual fans, as they give them ratings. History has shown they like guys with character who can cut promos, Nakmaura is neither of those Actually Roman gets pretty good reactions at house show because I have been at 3 over the past 2 years and he mostly gets cheered. Also Punk and Bryan didn't draw a dime because ratings were low during Punks title reign and the PPV's that Bryan main eventer had awful buy rates.
Also I don't know about Roman but many guys having been outselling Cena because his merch has dropped from he went part time and so many other wrestlers currently have flashy shirts that attracts kids.
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