TheEvilDoink1987
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Post by TheEvilDoink1987 on Oct 17, 2017 21:46:23 GMT -5
This won't be easy. I was only 8 years old in 1995 so the WWF couldn't do any wrong, but like most fans I now understand just how rocky a year it was from both a financial and creative standpoint.
Anybody got any good feuds or matches they could have gone with? Let's be realistic and only work with the roster that was there. On paper, it is pretty good. You still had plenty of big-time names (Bret, Taker, Shawn, Razor, Sid) Add to that a good pool of developing young stars (Kid, Hakushi, Hunter, even Candido and Douglas) as well as reliable veterans (Owen, Bulldog, Luger, Bam Bam). The talent depth was there.
Also, more specifically, how would you have booked Diesel's run as WWF champion? I don't have any specifics aside from ditching the Mabel feud. As a 7-foot babyface champ it was always going to be tough finding him opponents of equal size to pose a legit threat. He had some solid matches with Bret and Shawn to bookmark the year, but the summer months were where his run hit the skids with poor booking. Maybe an earlier heel turn? The company was dangerously low on credible heels so that really limited what he had to work with.
The glory days of Hulkamania were long gone and the '90s boom period was still a few years away. However, when you reflect back on that roster all these years later it has a ton of future Hall of Famers either in their prime or still climbing the ladder. I think they could have tried ditching their cartoon image a little sooner. I'm not saying Attitude Era levels of insanity, just less silly characters with part-time jobs and more intriguing storylines that don't involve Bret Hart wrestling a pirate to get his jacket back.
The parts were there now we just have to put it all together. Let's make 1995 suck a little less! 👍
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Post by The Brain on Oct 17, 2017 22:45:49 GMT -5
Hakushi definitely comes to mind as a guy who could've had a fun with match Diesel for the belt. I would've had him beat Bret in that feud and build him over the Summer as this dangerous high flying assassin so to speak leading to SSlam and have him challenge for the belt. Of course he wouldn't win but it'd be a better option than what we did get.
They did the right call with Diesel losing the belt at SSeries though. That match and heel turn was fantastic.
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TheEvilDoink1987
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Post by TheEvilDoink1987 on Oct 17, 2017 23:27:28 GMT -5
Agreed. The turn at Survivor Series and the match itself were perfect. I just think they could've given Diesel some better material to work with over that summer instead of Mabel.
I think they should have turned Lex. They needed more heels and he desperately could have used a character overhaul. That whole patriotic gimmick was already dead in the water after Wrestlemania X.
On the topic of Lex, if they weren't going to turn him heel then I think they missed the mark not making the Allied Powers a bigger deal in the tag scene. Nobody would kneel for that song.
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Oct 17, 2017 23:57:58 GMT -5
I couldn't disagree more that 1995 was an awful year for the WWF or Kevin Nash. It was the high point of his career and many wonderful things were developing in the company that year. There were thing that could have been done better for sure, but WWE hit more often than they whiffed in '95. Let me hit a few of the most notable moments for examination.
His Royal Rumble match with Bret worked quite well. Diesel cut some solid promos leading up to it, and the match made him look on par with the centerpiece of 1994. I still think Diesel should have pinned Bret as a signal that he was becoming the focal point of the company, but there were more steps to come.
HBK vs. Diesel was an outstanding feud. They had both been I-C champs and they were the Tag champs together, so they were primed for the WrestleMania spotlight. Shawn, as he did with everyone he faced in '95, got the best out of Nash in the ring. The feud should have gone on a little longer, but Michaels was quickly becoming favored among the fans, so I don't think Vince wanted to risk ongoing mixed reactions for their matches. It was smart to have them teaming again, and they had solid opponents in Owen/Bulldog/Yoko w/ Fuji and Cornette to stoke the fires.
One decent post-WM development was the feud with Sid. Their matches weren't memorable, but it gave Diesel a visual equal to make him seem like more than just a guy who won because of his size. You can apply that to the Mabel feud to, although that was a little rushed.
Diesel's partnership with Bam Bam didn't quite ignite the fans the way WWF had hoped. That didn't really help Nash along, and we know that it turned out even worse for Bigelow.
As for what could have been done differently, I'm not exactly certain. When the WWF turned HBK, that left them perilously low on credible heels. Perhaps the company could have gone with Diesel-Undertaker at SS '95, but that would have given away a huge money match that the WWF obviously needed later.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Oct 18, 2017 1:27:03 GMT -5
I think 1995 started out pretty strong. I think the stuff I would replace for big time matches, is definitely put Bigelow in the main event at SummerSlam vs. Diesel.
Bam Bam could have won the KOTR that year.
I would have went Bam Bam over HBK in the KOTR finals, and had Diesel beat Sid at KOTR.
Sid beats Diesel by DQ at the IYH 1 show
Diesel beats Sid at KOTR
Diesel beats Sid at IYH 2 in the lumberjack match
Diesel beats Bigelow at SummerSlam
Then keep the last few PPV matches the same.
I think that would have made for more of an interesting summer for Diesel and his 1995 run would probably be looked at a bit better. Mabel did nothing good for Diesel or Undertaker in that 1995 year for matches/feuds.
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TheEvilDoink1987
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Post by TheEvilDoink1987 on Oct 18, 2017 21:19:59 GMT -5
I couldn't disagree more that 1995 was an awful year for the WWF or Kevin Nash. It was the high point of his career and many wonderful things were developing in the company that year. There were thing that could have been done better for sure, but WWE hit more often than they whiffed in '95. Let me hit a few of the most notable moments for examination. His Royal Rumble match with Bret worked quite well. Diesel cut some solid promos leading up to it, and the match made him look on par with the centerpiece of 1994. I still think Diesel should have pinned Bret as a signal that he was becoming the focal point of the company, but there were more steps to come. HBK vs. Diesel was an outstanding feud. They had both been I-C champs and they were the Tag champs together, so they were primed for the WrestleMania spotlight. Shawn, as he did with everyone he faced in '95, got the best out of Nash in the ring. The feud should have gone on a little longer, but Michaels was quickly becoming favored among the fans, so I don't think Vince wanted to risk ongoing mixed reactions for their matches. It was smart to have them teaming again, and they had solid opponents in Owen/Bulldog/Yoko w/ Fuji and Cornette to stoke the fires. One decent post-WM development was the feud with Sid. Their matches weren't memorable, but it gave Diesel a visual equal to make him seem like more than just a guy who won because of his size. You can apply that to the Mabel feud to, although that was a little rushed. Diesel's partnership with Bam Bam didn't quite ignite the fans the way WWF had hoped. That didn't really help Nash along, and we know that it turned out even worse for Bigelow. As for what could have been done differently, I'm not exactly certain. When the WWF turned HBK, that left them perilously low on credible heels. Perhaps the company could have gone with Diesel-Undertaker at SS '95, but that would have given away a huge money match that the WWF obviously needed later. I agree that 1995 was the pinnacle of Nash's career. The nWo was enormous and he'd go on to make a ton more money in WCW, but that year he was THE guy for Vince. His in-ring performances were also good especially against the right opponent. The main thing I'd like to change is Summerslam. What else could they have gone with instead of Mabel? There had to be some better options with that roster. |
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marklud
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Post by marklud on Oct 19, 2017 0:51:12 GMT -5
His opponents made no sense -- specifically Sid and Mabel. You've got a guy who's supposed to be a monster, so they pair him up against people as big if not bigger. It's the same mistake they made with Vader by pairing him up with Yoko when Vader came to WWF. I'd have to think a little more on it but I binged 1995 again a year or so ago ... basically you just need to balance the matchups out with smaller, more athletic opponents. Owen, HBK again (their final match before Diesel left for WCW I watched for the first time a few months ago and it's incredible), maybe Hakushi with better booking, etc. Needed more athletic guys who could bump and make him look like the monster he was supposed to be, not put him up against other monsters and make him sell half the match.
(It's actually a problem that WWE sometimes still struggles with today with big monster babyfaces (cough, Reigns, cough). They take a monster heel and once he turns make him sell too much instead of sticking with what brought them to the dance in the first place. Stone Cold is the perfect example of not changing his in-ring psychology from heel to face and it paid off BIG TIME.)
It's also the same concept that HBK said if he were to return (even though he won't) he could see himself having a really great match with a guy like Samoa Joe, that would jump off the page to him instead of a similar type of worker like AJ/Dolph/etc. that people often want to see him with. Opposites attract!
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Post by cordless2016 on Oct 19, 2017 10:22:25 GMT -5
The problem was that they turned this bada** trucker into a vanilla baby face. Fans started to get behind him in the Fall of ‘94 because he went after faces and heels. He was a great tweener. But as soon as he won the title, he turned into this Hogan/Luger vanilla babyface ripoff that just didn’t fit his character.
If you haven’t seen his promo on Raw following Survivor Series ‘95 I highly suggest watching it. He cut a worked-shoot and came off as more of a top guy that night than he had at any point during his title run. For the remainder of his WWF run he was portrayed as a tweener again and just felt more over than he had he year previously. Nash felt more natural in the role as well.
As far as booking goes, I’d have booked Owen to win the title at Survivor Series ‘94 and hold it until the Royal Rumble. This give Nash a few more months to get the crowd behind him during his solo run before getting the title. Nash beats Owen at the RR but remains a tweener. We then get the Diesel/HBK match at WM like we did, but they pull a double turn and Diesel is full heel after this. Diesel then feuds with Razor for a few months while HBK gets Sid.
Meanwhile, Taker wins the KOTR. We get Diesel/Taker at Summer Slam, with Diesel cheating to retain. Taker is then preoccupied with another challenger and Diesel can move onto Bret. They feud for a few months until Bret wins the title at Survivor Series ‘95. Then everything plays out like it did, but Taker starts targeting Diesel again for cheating at Summer Slam which leads to their WM match.
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TheEvilDoink1987
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Post by TheEvilDoink1987 on Oct 19, 2017 15:29:33 GMT -5
I remember that Raw after he lost the belt. He came down to ringside, put on the old Diesel shades and said Big Daddy Cool was back. That character at the end of both 1994 and 1995 was definitely ahead of its time with how over he was despite not being a clean babyface.
You're right about Vince immediately cutting off his balls once he became champ. Instead of running with that character, he was stripped down and made to resemble more of a Luger type just minus the patriotic colors. Funny to think Vince was still trying to replicate that outdated Hogan model as late as 1995. Talk about a jaded lover.
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Post by cordless2016 on Oct 19, 2017 20:29:04 GMT -5
I remember that Raw after he lost the belt. He came down to ringside, put on the old Diesel shades and said Big Daddy Cool was back. That character at the end of both 1994 and 1995 was definitely ahead of its time with how over he was despite not being a clean babyface. You're right about Vince immediately cutting off his balls once he became champ. Instead of running with that character, he was stripped down and made to resemble more of a Luger type just minus the patriotic colors. Funny to think Vince was still trying to replicate that outdated Hogan model as late as 1995. Talk about a jaded lover. Not as shocking considering he’s currently doing it with Cena, and with Reigns soon to follow the patriotic-American route. |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Oct 19, 2017 21:10:42 GMT -5
I think we all need to stop and look back too at 1995 and some of the other stuff that was going on. People can say Diesel was a flop, but look at some of the under talent that was there.
Mantaur
Man Mountain Rock
Waylon Mercy
Well Dunn
Henry Godwinn
Kwang/Savio Vega
Kama the Supreme Fighting Machine
Aldo Montoya
Jean Pierre Lafitte
Bushwhackers
Nikolai Volkoff
Avatar
Bob Backlund
I noticed when watching Superstars 95, I am skipping most of the matches now. I don't care to see those guys wrestle. So the talent pool in 1995 was the best like it was years prior.
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Post by The Brain on Oct 19, 2017 21:26:23 GMT -5
I think we all need to stop and look back too at 1995 and some of the other stuff that was going on. People can say Diesel was a flop, but look at some of the under talent that was there. Mantaur Man Mountain Rock Waylon Mercy Well Dunn Henry Godwinn Kwang/Savio Vega Kama the Supreme Fighting Machine Aldo Montoya Jean Pierre Lafitte Bushwhackers Nikolai VolkoffAvatar Bob Backlund I noticed when watching Superstars 95, I am skipping most of the matches now. I don't care to see those guys wrestle. So the talent pool in 1995 was the best like it was years prior. Man if there ever was a 80's guy who looked out of place in mid 90s WWF it was definitely Nikolai. |
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TheEvilDoink1987
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Post by TheEvilDoink1987 on Oct 19, 2017 21:40:08 GMT -5
I think we all need to stop and look back too at 1995 and some of the other stuff that was going on. People can say Diesel was a flop, but look at some of the under talent that was there. Mantaur Man Mountain Rock Waylon Mercy Well Dunn Henry Godwinn Kwang/Savio Vega Kama the Supreme Fighting Machine Aldo Montoya Jean Pierre Lafitte Bushwhackers Nikolai VolkoffAvatar Bob Backlund I noticed when watching Superstars 95, I am skipping most of the matches now. I don't care to see those guys wrestle. So the talent pool in 1995 was the best like it was years prior. Man if there ever was a 80's guy who looked out of place in mid 90s WWF it was definitely Nikolai. Really stretching the boundaries of "dad bod" even back in 1995. Poor guy. |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Oct 19, 2017 22:14:33 GMT -5
I think we all need to stop and look back too at 1995 and some of the other stuff that was going on. People can say Diesel was a flop, but look at some of the under talent that was there. Mantaur Man Mountain Rock Waylon Mercy Well Dunn Henry Godwinn Kwang/Savio Vega Kama the Supreme Fighting Machine Aldo Montoya Jean Pierre Lafitte Bushwhackers Nikolai VolkoffAvatar Bob Backlund I noticed when watching Superstars 95, I am skipping most of the matches now. I don't care to see those guys wrestle. So the talent pool in 1995 was the best like it was years prior. Man if there ever was a 80's guy who looked out of place in mid 90s WWF it was definitely Nikolai. King Kong Bundy's 1995 run with the WWE too can be comparable to Volkoff's. Those two old relics reek of the Hulkamania era of the 80s. |
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robbutler01
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Post by robbutler01 on Oct 20, 2017 1:13:53 GMT -5
Man if there ever was a 80's guy who looked out of place in mid 90s WWF it was definitely Nikolai. King Kong Bundy's 1995 run with the WWE too can be comparable to Volkoff's. Those two old relics reek of the Hulkamania era of the 80s. The new generation bit always made me laugh when they booked them both. Imagine vince in a meeting saying "Bundy and volkoff = perfect for the new generation, hogan, macho and flair hmmm no way too old" lol |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Oct 20, 2017 2:01:40 GMT -5
King Kong Bundy's 1995 run with the WWE too can be comparable to Volkoff's. Those two old relics reek of the Hulkamania era of the 80s. The new generation bit always made me laugh when they booked them both. Imagine vince in a meeting saying "Bundy and volkoff = perfect for the new generation, hogan, macho and flair hmmm no way too old" lol "Okay Vince, who do you want us to show for past WWE wrestlers for the New Generation video for the 'out with the old' section??" - Kevin Dunn "Put in Andre, Sheik, Putski... and Hogan! Ha ha ha that's what he gets for going to WCW, we will say they are old!" - Vince McMahon "Excellent idea, Vince. Now who do you have planned to work Bret Hart at Survivor Series for the WWE Title??" - Kevin Dunn "Bob Backlund." - Vince McMahon Ha ha ha ahhh never made any sense whatsoever that a guy who was even BEFORE Hulk Hogan was in the "New Generation" for the WWE. |
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robbutler01
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Post by robbutler01 on Oct 20, 2017 6:20:18 GMT -5
The new generation bit always made me laugh when they booked them both. Imagine vince in a meeting saying "Bundy and volkoff = perfect for the new generation, hogan, macho and flair hmmm no way too old" lol "Okay Vince, who do you want us to show for past WWE wrestlers for the New Generation video for the 'out with the old' section??" - Kevin Dunn "Put in Andre, Sheik, Putski... and Hogan! Ha ha ha that's what he gets for going to WCW, we will say they are old!" - Vince McMahon "Excellent idea, Vince. Now who do you have planned to work Bret Hart at Survivor Series for the WWE Title??" - Kevin Dunn "Bob Backlund." - Vince McMahon Ha ha ha ahhh never made any sense whatsoever that a guy who was even BEFORE Hulk Hogan was in the "New Generation" for the WWE. Lol, exactly this. Props to backlund for making it work but I still don't get what Vince was thinking |
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TheEvilDoink1987
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Post by TheEvilDoink1987 on Oct 20, 2017 14:26:19 GMT -5
"Okay Vince, who do you want us to show for past WWE wrestlers for the New Generation video for the 'out with the old' section??" - Kevin Dunn "Put in Andre, Sheik, Putski... and Hogan! Ha ha ha that's what he gets for going to WCW, we will say they are old!" - Vince McMahon "Excellent idea, Vince. Now who do you have planned to work Bret Hart at Survivor Series for the WWE Title??" - Kevin Dunn "Bob Backlund." - Vince McMahon Ha ha ha ahhh never made any sense whatsoever that a guy who was even BEFORE Hulk Hogan was in the "New Generation" for the WWE. Lol, exactly this. Props to backlund for making it work but I still don't get what Vince was thinking At least with Backlund they did a totally warped 180° with the psycho gimmick. I'll always give them credit for coming up with such a unique character and even more credit to Backlund for making it work. This next question could almost be its own thread, but do you think that Diesel's title run was planned out far in advance or was it more of a quick trigger by Vince? Was the crazy Bob Backlund angle only done to transition the belt from Bret to Diesel? I heard that Vince used to book his storylines months ahead. Bret was having a solid reign with great matches. I just wonder if the plan all along was a lengthy Diesel run or maybe they were banking on getting more mileage from Backlund as a heel champion? So many unanswered questions. |
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Post by warriorlynx on Oct 20, 2017 14:36:10 GMT -5
The first issue with Diesel was his mic work as the new champion. He did get better, but his first RAW interview it wasn't good and you could almost see Shawn thinking "this should be my spot". He did get a massive pop at the Garden when he won the title, but he didn't have the connection with the fans from the start.
The second issue was Bret didn't put Diesel over. I would've preferred they went at it at Wrestlemania XI instead of the Rumble, but I know that the seeds of a Diesel/Shawn feud was already in the works since SummerSlam/SS 94. Without Bret doing the job, why should we get behind him?
The third issue was In Your House. It was a new PPV and cheaper than the big four so Diesel had to be constantly pushed monthly now instead of how it was in the past.
Lastly the biggest issue was the booking. Sid was a good choice for the first IYH (PPV numbers were just fine), but then the King of the Ring it was a Tag match? Like WTH? Diesel should've taken on Bam Bam Bigelow in singles, but instead you had Bam Bam turn babyface and team up with him. Then you had Sid again for IHY2, not a good idea. Thereafter Mabel, the worst choice of a heel and that feud was a disaster. Heck even Yokozuna would've been better. Then at IHY3 ANOTHER Tag match. Then IHY4, the Bulldog? Really I mean he worked better with Bret in December, but it was a mismatch. So that was it, now we finally have a main eventer in Bret and instead Diesel becomes heel and drops the belt to the guy who wouldn't do the job for him.
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TheEvilDoink1987
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Post by TheEvilDoink1987 on Oct 20, 2017 14:42:36 GMT -5
The first issue with Diesel was his mic work as the new champion. He did get better, but his first RAW interview it wasn't good and you could almost see Shawn thinking "this should be my spot". He did get a massive pop at the Garden when he won the title, but he didn't have the connection with the fans from the start. The second issue was Bret didn't put Diesel over. I would've preferred they went at it at Wrestlemania XI instead of the Rumble, but I know that the seeds of a Diesel/Shawn feud was already in the works since SummerSlam/SS 94. Without Bret doing the job, why should we get behind him? The third issue was In Your House. It was a new PPV and cheaper than the big four so Diesel had to be constantly pushed monthly now instead of how it was in the past. Lastly the biggest issue was the booking. Sid was a good choice for the first IYH (PPV numbers were just fine), but then the King of the Ring it was a Tag match? Like WTH? Diesel should've taken on Bam Bam Bigelow in singles, but instead you had Bam Bam turn babyface and team up with him. Then you had Sid again for IHY2, not a good idea. Thereafter Mabel, the worst choice of a heel and that feud was a disaster. Heck even Yokozuna would've been better. Then at IHY3 ANOTHER Tag match. Then IHY4, the Bulldog? Really I mean he worked better with Bret in December, but it was a mismatch. So that was it, now we finally have a main eventer in Bret and instead Diesel becomes heel and drops the belt to the guy who wouldn't do the job for him. Do we actually know if Bret refused to put Diesel over? Both their King of the Ring and Royal Rumble matches ended in disqualification to protect both guys I assume. |
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