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Post by warriorlynx on Oct 20, 2017 15:07:22 GMT -5
The first issue with Diesel was his mic work as the new champion. He did get better, but his first RAW interview it wasn't good and you could almost see Shawn thinking "this should be my spot". He did get a massive pop at the Garden when he won the title, but he didn't have the connection with the fans from the start. The second issue was Bret didn't put Diesel over. I would've preferred they went at it at Wrestlemania XI instead of the Rumble, but I know that the seeds of a Diesel/Shawn feud was already in the works since SummerSlam/SS 94. Without Bret doing the job, why should we get behind him? The third issue was In Your House. It was a new PPV and cheaper than the big four so Diesel had to be constantly pushed monthly now instead of how it was in the past. Lastly the biggest issue was the booking. Sid was a good choice for the first IYH (PPV numbers were just fine), but then the King of the Ring it was a Tag match? Like WTH? Diesel should've taken on Bam Bam Bigelow in singles, but instead you had Bam Bam turn babyface and team up with him. Then you had Sid again for IHY2, not a good idea. Thereafter Mabel, the worst choice of a heel and that feud was a disaster. Heck even Yokozuna would've been better. Then at IHY3 ANOTHER Tag match. Then IHY4, the Bulldog? Really I mean he worked better with Bret in December, but it was a mismatch. So that was it, now we finally have a main eventer in Bret and instead Diesel becomes heel and drops the belt to the guy who wouldn't do the job for him. Do we actually know if Bret refused to put Diesel over? Both their King of the Ring and Royal Rumble matches ended in disqualification to protect both guys I assume. Nash's version of the story was that they wanted to keep Bret strong so you're right. But it makes no sense to do that at that point. Bret was already champ twice, has done it all. He's put some guys over in the past, so it's not like he couldn't do it. You can't have a "three-year run" which was the original plan for Diesel without Bret not putting him over. Unless they wanted Bret to do it down the road, but it just seemed odd to me. |
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TheEvilDoink1987
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Post by TheEvilDoink1987 on Oct 20, 2017 15:34:20 GMT -5
Do we actually know if Bret refused to put Diesel over? Both their King of the Ring and Royal Rumble matches ended in disqualification to protect both guys I assume. Nash's version of the story was that they wanted to keep Bret strong so you're right. But it makes no sense to do that at that point. Bret was already champ twice, has done it all. He's put some guys over in the past, so it's not like he couldn't do it. You can't have a "three-year run" which was the original plan for Diesel without Bret not putting him over. Unless they wanted Bret to do it down the road, but it just seemed odd to me. I'm a HUGE Bret Hart fan, but I agree it was a mistake not having Diesel beat him clean at the Royal Rumble. That was his first big title defense and no matter who his opponent was the finish needed to be decisive. |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Oct 20, 2017 16:24:10 GMT -5
Lol, exactly this. Props to backlund for making it work but I still don't get what Vince was thinking At least with Backlund they did a totally warped 180° with the psycho gimmick. I'll always give them credit for coming up with such a unique character and even more credit to Backlund for making it work. This next question could almost be its own thread, but do you think that Diesel's title run was planned out far in advance or was it more of a quick trigger by Vince? Was the crazy Bob Backlund angle only done to transition the belt from Bret to Diesel? I heard that Vince used to book his storylines months ahead. Bret was having a solid reign with great matches. I just wonder if the plan all along was a lengthy Diesel run or maybe they were banking on getting more mileage from Backlund as a heel champion? So many unanswered questions. Vince knew from 1993 that Diesel was going to be champion. I remember hearing a story, I forget who's shoot interview it was, but Lex Luger was standing in the back with Vince watching Diesel in the ring. And Vince kept saying, "look how big he is! And it's all natural too! God, he's so big!" and Diesel came to the back after the match and Lex walked up to him and said, "he's gonna run with you, not me." And Diesel thought Lex was joking. Turns out he wasn't. In one year, Diesel dominates the Rumble, wins the IC Title, beats Bret by DQ at KOTR, wins the Tag Titles the night before losing the IC Title so he still looks strong, gives up the Tag titles and 2 days later wins the WWE Title in 8 seconds. Vince knew what he was doing that year with Diesel. |
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Post by warriorlynx on Oct 20, 2017 17:00:04 GMT -5
Let me give this a shot as a possible Diesel title run.
Royal Rumble 95 - Diesel (c) def. Bret Hart via pinfall
Wrestlemania XI - Diesel (c) def. Shawn Michaels via pinfall
IHY1 - Diesel (c) def. Sycho Sid via DQ (finish is for a rematch)
King of the Ring - Diesel (c) def. Sycho Sid via pinfall in a No Holds Barred match, Razor Ramon wins KOTR (No Mabel)
IHY2 - Diesel (c) def. Yokozuna (w/Owen) via pinfall
SummerSlam - Diesel (c) def. Razor Ramon via pinfall. They make up at the end as two babyfaces.
IHY3 - Diesel (c) def. Isaac Yankem DDS via pinfall
IHY4 - Undertaker def. Bret Hart to become the No. 1 Contender, Diesel is on commentary for the match
Survivor Series - Diesel (c) def. The Undertaker via pinfall, Bret interferes in the match costing Taker the match
IHY5 - Diesel (c) def. Bret "the Hitman" Hart in a Steel Cage Match
Royal Rumble 96 - Diesel (C) def. Goldust via pinfall (instead of Razor, Goldust is obsessed with Diesel), Shawn wins the Rumble
IHY6 - Goldust & Owen Hart def. Diesel (c) & Shawn Michaels. This is where Diesel goes heel and betrays babyface Shawn.
Wrestlemania XII: Shawn Michaels def. Diesel (c) to become the WWF Champion
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Post by Artie Kendall on Oct 20, 2017 17:01:38 GMT -5
Here is one way you could book Diesel as champ in 1995:
January 1995 - Royal Rumble - WWF Champion Diesel Vs Owen Hart - The one thing you never want to do to a champion on his first pay per view is make him have a draw. He needs a clean win. Switching it to Owen does two things, one he can afford to let Diesel win cleanly, two it adds more fuel to the fire of Bret Hart. His brother, who essentially was the reason he lost the title to begin with, gets a shot before he gets his rematch.
February 1995 - No pay per view keep it as is.
March/April 1995 - Wrestlemania XI - WWF Champion Diesel Vs Shawn Michaels - Keep this as it is. We need to keep the Shawn face turn the next night on Raw as is.
May 1995 - In Your House 1 - WWF Champion Diesel Vs Sid - Diesel has to get revenge for the attack but it's one match and that is it. No need to extend this feud to three bloody pay per views. After this pay per view have Diesel and Shawn team up in some tag matches on Raw. Make mention of how popular Shawn is with the fans. This is planting the seeds for that heel turn.
June 1995 - King of the Ring - WWF Champion Diesel Vs Intercontinental Champion Jeff Jarrett - It's essential that Jeff Jarrett cut a 1995 promo about how "After tonight I'm going to be the true King of the Ring". Have Razor Ramon win the King of the Ring. After Jarrett doesn't win his match with Diesel, have Shawn Michaels cutting a promo on Raw and get cut off by Jarrett. This sets up a match for the title which Michaels will win. We need Shawn to take the title because...
July 1995 - In Your House 2 - WWF Champion Diesel & WWF Intercontinental Champion Shawn Michaels Vs Owen Hart and Yokozuna - This is the heel turn. Have Diesel turn on Michaels because in Diesels mind, Shawn thinks he can do everything alone, he doesn't need anyone. So Diesel can powerbomb Michaels and that sets up the switch that needed to be done.
August 1995 - Summerslam 1995 - WWF Champion Diesel Vs King of the Ring Razor Ramon - The rematch from 1994 but a different outcome. Diesel gets the win. Shawn Michaels would have to defend his title here so we keep Diesel and Michaels apart.
September 1995 - In Your House 3 - WWF Champion Diesel Vs Bam Bam Bigelow or WWF Champion Diesel & Dean Douglas Vs Razor Ramon and Shawn Michaels - Either Diesel gets another clean win over Bam Bam or Douglas can take the fall, but Diesel has to powerbomb him after the match to keep that edge of "tweener"
October 1995 - In Your House 4 - WWF Champion Diesel Vs British Bulldog - This is to set up the fact that in the year Diesel has beaten Owen Hart and Bulldog, two people close to Bret Hart, even if they are heels.
November 1995 - WWF Champion Diesel Vs Bret Hart - Keep everything the same. Diesel had already been cutting really good promos before and after this match that showed why people loved him in the first place. He was a "tweener" that would take out anyone.
So that is 1995 for Diesel. Personally I would rather push the Bret Hart Diesel match to December. It has always bugged me that Diesel didn't get to the year mark, instead he was stuck at 358 days as champ. The overall issue with 1995 is the lack of strong heels. Talent and everyone was switching between face and heel. Diesel should have kept that in between stance or been heel earlier in the year. McMahon and the WWF was trying to take the Hulk Hogan formula of getting someone Big/Bigger and put them into matches (Hogan had Andre, Bundy, Quake, Zeus; Diesel had Sid for three months out of the year and Mabel), and it didn't need to. If they went full heel it could have been classic "Who can stop this monster champion" scenario.
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Post by Glorydaysofwrestling on Oct 20, 2017 18:31:59 GMT -5
Really liked reading through some of these. I’d definitely change the Mabel match/program. Davey Boy turned on Diesel before SummerSlam anyways, so I would of went with Bulldog vs Diesel.
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Post by LA Times on Oct 20, 2017 21:30:35 GMT -5
WCW putting Monday Nitro against Raw salvaged the WWF in 1995. It just took a few years.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Oct 20, 2017 22:12:55 GMT -5
Really liked reading through some of these. I’d definitely change the Mabel match/program. Davey Boy turned on Diesel before SummerSlam anyways, so I would of went with Bulldog vs Diesel. Bulldog and Luger weren't even on the S. Slam card, so Diesel vs. Bulldog for the WWE Title, Men on a Mission vs. Owen/Yoko for the Tag Titles. Done and done! |
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Post by Glorydaysofwrestling on Oct 21, 2017 6:53:22 GMT -5
Really liked reading through some of these. I’d definitely change the Mabel match/program. Davey Boy turned on Diesel before SummerSlam anyways, so I would of went with Bulldog vs Diesel. Bulldog and Luger weren't even on the S. Slam card, so Diesel vs. Bulldog for the WWE Title, Men on a Mission vs. Owen/Yoko for the Tag Titles. Done and done! Mind boggling that those guys were off the card. They did that quite a few times in 95 with great talents. Kotr 95 could of been an amazing tournament. |
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robbutler01
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Post by robbutler01 on Oct 21, 2017 10:42:44 GMT -5
Really liked reading through some of these. I’d definitely change the Mabel match/program. Davey Boy turned on Diesel before SummerSlam anyways, so I would of went with Bulldog vs Diesel. Bulldog and Luger weren't even on the S. Slam card, so Diesel vs. Bulldog for the WWE Title, Men on a Mission vs. Owen/Yoko for the Tag Titles. Done and done! It does seem wierd to not have them on the show. Your booking solution is miles better than what we got and the luger in in could still happen and would have made sense too. |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Oct 21, 2017 11:20:57 GMT -5
Bulldog and Luger weren't even on the S. Slam card, so Diesel vs. Bulldog for the WWE Title, Men on a Mission vs. Owen/Yoko for the Tag Titles. Done and done! It does seem weird to not have them on the show. Your booking solution is miles better than what we got and the Luger in in could still happen and would have made sense too. From what I remember seeing on Raw when I went through it on the Network a few years ago, SummerSlam had it so Shawn Michaels vs. Sid for the IC Title and Yoko/Owen vs. Razor/Savio for the Tag Titles were set. But then Gino Monsoon changed it to Razor vs. HBK in a ladder match for the IC Title, and Sid, Savio, Yoko and Owen all got scrapped from the PPV. Luger and Bulldog weren't eve scheduled for SummerSlam that year either. I have said it many times, the In Your House cards in 1995 were better booked than the big 5 PPVs that year. |
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Post by cordless2016 on Oct 21, 2017 15:57:55 GMT -5
The first issue with Diesel was his mic work as the new champion. He did get better, but his first RAW interview it wasn't good and you could almost see Shawn thinking "this should be my spot". He did get a massive pop at the Garden when he won the title, but he didn't have the connection with the fans from the start. The second issue was Bret didn't put Diesel over. I would've preferred they went at it at Wrestlemania XI instead of the Rumble, but I know that the seeds of a Diesel/Shawn feud was already in the works since SummerSlam/SS 94. Without Bret doing the job, why should we get behind him? The third issue was In Your House. It was a new PPV and cheaper than the big four so Diesel had to be constantly pushed monthly now instead of how it was in the past. Lastly the biggest issue was the booking. Sid was a good choice for the first IYH (PPV numbers were just fine), but then the King of the Ring it was a Tag match? Like WTH? Diesel should've taken on Bam Bam Bigelow in singles, but instead you had Bam Bam turn babyface and team up with him. Then you had Sid again for IHY2, not a good idea. Thereafter Mabel, the worst choice of a heel and that feud was a disaster. Heck even Yokozuna would've been better. Then at IHY3 ANOTHER Tag match. Then IHY4, the Bulldog? Really I mean he worked better with Bret in December, but it was a mismatch. So that was it, now we finally have a main eventer in Bret and instead Diesel becomes heel and drops the belt to the guy who wouldn't do the job for him. I think Vince knew he couldn’t have Bret put him over clean as Bret was his fall-back guy. This was the biggest problem of 1995. Bret and Taker were the only credible main eventers in the WWF, with guys like HBK, Diesel, Razor and Owen all making a strong upper mid-card. Just like when Luger flopped the previous year, Vince needed Bret strong incase Diesel flopped (Diesel’s run was bad but Vince pushed through with it longer than he should have). Bret loses clean and he loses credibility, which Vince couldn’t have. Sucked for Diesel but he shouldn’t have been a full-fledged babyface to begin with. Had Diesel been allowed to be a tweener, or heel like he was around WM12, he could have been allowed to beat guys like Bret and Taker in heel fashion without Vince needing to worry about Bret looking bad. |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Oct 22, 2017 0:59:54 GMT -5
The first issue with Diesel was his mic work as the new champion. He did get better, but his first RAW interview it wasn't good and you could almost see Shawn thinking "this should be my spot". He did get a massive pop at the Garden when he won the title, but he didn't have the connection with the fans from the start. The second issue was Bret didn't put Diesel over. I would've preferred they went at it at Wrestlemania XI instead of the Rumble, but I know that the seeds of a Diesel/Shawn feud was already in the works since SummerSlam/SS 94. Without Bret doing the job, why should we get behind him? The third issue was In Your House. It was a new PPV and cheaper than the big four so Diesel had to be constantly pushed monthly now instead of how it was in the past. Lastly the biggest issue was the booking. Sid was a good choice for the first IYH (PPV numbers were just fine), but then the King of the Ring it was a Tag match? Like WTH? Diesel should've taken on Bam Bam Bigelow in singles, but instead you had Bam Bam turn babyface and team up with him. Then you had Sid again for IHY2, not a good idea. Thereafter Mabel, the worst choice of a heel and that feud was a disaster. Heck even Yokozuna would've been better. Then at IHY3 ANOTHER Tag match. Then IHY4, the Bulldog? Really I mean he worked better with Bret in December, but it was a mismatch. So that was it, now we finally have a main eventer in Bret and instead Diesel becomes heel and drops the belt to the guy who wouldn't do the job for him. I think Vince knew he couldn’t have Bret put him over clean as Bret was his fall-back guy. This was the biggest problem of 1995. Bret and Taker were the only credible main eventers in the WWF, with guys like HBK, Diesel, Razor and Owen all making a strong upper mid-card. Just like when Luger flopped the previous year, Vince needed Bret strong incase Diesel flopped (Diesel’s run was bad but Vince pushed through with it longer than he should have). Bret loses clean and he loses credibility, which Vince couldn’t have. Sucked for Diesel but he shouldn’t have been a full-fledged babyface to begin with. Had Diesel been allowed to be a tweener, or heel like he was around WM12, he could have been allowed to beat guys like Bret and Taker in heel fashion without Vince needing to worry about Bret looking bad. The sad thing is that Luger flopping was all on Vince's shoulders. I am 100% sure that anyone who was watching the WWE in 1993 would say, "I wanted Lex Luger to beat Yokozuna at SummerSlam and become WWE Champion." And it never happened, thus it cause all the fans to just go, "oh...." and the steam was gone. He tried building it back up in late '93 and early '94 but he even had to make Lex and Bret co-win the Rumble, knowing that the Lex Express may not have as many passengers as it had the previous summer. And he was right. Lex losing at WM X was like a "meh" when we all were waiting for the end of the night to see Bret beat Yoko to become WWE Champion. |
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Post by The Brain on Oct 22, 2017 2:52:25 GMT -5
Vince obviously saw something in smiling babyface Diesel but man his title run would've been so much better if he was a badass heel.
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Post by Glorydaysofwrestling on Oct 22, 2017 7:00:17 GMT -5
On a side note, I hated every babyface (except for Taker at rumble 94)that was put in the main event scene from 93-96(I was 10yrs old -13 yrs old) To me that was Bret’s spot and no matter who the WWF told me to like I wouldn’t. I know it’s kind of normal now days for a kid that age to go against the grain, but back then I feel it wasn’t. So I never liked Diesel, HBK, Luger. I remember being so happy when Luger didn’t win the belt at SummerSlam! When Hogan took the belt from Yokonat mania 9 was Legit the first ever time I had 2nd thoughts about Hogan. Then it turned into oh well I want to see Bret win the King of the Ring.
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Post by warriorlynx on Oct 22, 2017 10:08:32 GMT -5
The first issue with Diesel was his mic work as the new champion. He did get better, but his first RAW interview it wasn't good and you could almost see Shawn thinking "this should be my spot". He did get a massive pop at the Garden when he won the title, but he didn't have the connection with the fans from the start. The second issue was Bret didn't put Diesel over. I would've preferred they went at it at Wrestlemania XI instead of the Rumble, but I know that the seeds of a Diesel/Shawn feud was already in the works since SummerSlam/SS 94. Without Bret doing the job, why should we get behind him? The third issue was In Your House. It was a new PPV and cheaper than the big four so Diesel had to be constantly pushed monthly now instead of how it was in the past. Lastly the biggest issue was the booking. Sid was a good choice for the first IYH (PPV numbers were just fine), but then the King of the Ring it was a Tag match? Like WTH? Diesel should've taken on Bam Bam Bigelow in singles, but instead you had Bam Bam turn babyface and team up with him. Then you had Sid again for IHY2, not a good idea. Thereafter Mabel, the worst choice of a heel and that feud was a disaster. Heck even Yokozuna would've been better. Then at IHY3 ANOTHER Tag match. Then IHY4, the Bulldog? Really I mean he worked better with Bret in December, but it was a mismatch. So that was it, now we finally have a main eventer in Bret and instead Diesel becomes heel and drops the belt to the guy who wouldn't do the job for him. I think Vince knew he couldn’t have Bret put him over clean as Bret was his fall-back guy. This was the biggest problem of 1995. Bret and Taker were the only credible main eventers in the WWF, with guys like HBK, Diesel, Razor and Owen all making a strong upper mid-card. Just like when Luger flopped the previous year, Vince needed Bret strong incase Diesel flopped (Diesel’s run was bad but Vince pushed through with it longer than he should have). Bret loses clean and he loses credibility, which Vince couldn’t have. Sucked for Diesel but he shouldn’t have been a full-fledged babyface to begin with. Had Diesel been allowed to be a tweener, or heel like he was around WM12, he could have been allowed to beat guys like Bret and Taker in heel fashion without Vince needing to worry about Bret looking bad. It's true that Bret was always the fall-back guy, but I don't think the loss would've been devastating. Heck even if there was interference it would've been a better. Lawler even pinned Bret at IHY1 because of Hakushi and that didn't do anything to damage Bret. Maybe the match with Bret was just too early for Diesel. I got behind Diesel's run eventually as a babyface, so it wasn't that he was a bad babyface, it was just that his turn was too quick and probably should've happened at SummerSlam 94 to give it time before he got the title run. It worked for Shawn when he turned face and had time as a babyface (though the "teddy bear" HBK babyface got boring quickly after his title win) I still believe the booking just wasn't that great for Diesel. |
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Post by warriorlynx on Oct 22, 2017 10:33:47 GMT -5
I think Vince knew he couldn’t have Bret put him over clean as Bret was his fall-back guy. This was the biggest problem of 1995. Bret and Taker were the only credible main eventers in the WWF, with guys like HBK, Diesel, Razor and Owen all making a strong upper mid-card. Just like when Luger flopped the previous year, Vince needed Bret strong incase Diesel flopped (Diesel’s run was bad but Vince pushed through with it longer than he should have). Bret loses clean and he loses credibility, which Vince couldn’t have. Sucked for Diesel but he shouldn’t have been a full-fledged babyface to begin with. Had Diesel been allowed to be a tweener, or heel like he was around WM12, he could have been allowed to beat guys like Bret and Taker in heel fashion without Vince needing to worry about Bret looking bad. The sad thing is that Luger flopping was all on Vince's shoulders. I am 100% sure that anyone who was watching the WWE in 1993 would say, "I wanted Lex Luger to beat Yokozuna at SummerSlam and become WWE Champion." And it never happened, thus it cause all the fans to just go, "oh...." and the steam was gone. He tried building it back up in late '93 and early '94 but he even had to make Lex and Bret co-win the Rumble, knowing that the Lex Express may not have as many passengers as it had the previous summer. And he was right. Lex losing at WM X was like a "meh" when we all were waiting for the end of the night to see Bret beat Yoko to become WWE Champion. I agree, Vince got greedy thinking Lex winning the title at Wrestlemania was better. Everyone wanted to see him win the title at SummerSlam but instead we got the best countout win in history. I read once that there was another reason that Lex didn't win because other wrestlers were against the idea to the point that some would be willing to leave if he was champion. From what I remember I think most people wanted Lex to beat Yokozuna because it made sense at WMX. Bret lost twice in 93 against Yokozuna (WMIX and MSG show), so a Lex Luger vs. Bret Hart match seemed more likely and gave Bret a better chance to win the title. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 11:04:11 GMT -5
Vince obviously saw something in smiling babyface Diesel but man his title run would've been so much better if he was a badass heel. Seems familiar, Big Dog. |
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Post by cordless2016 on Oct 22, 2017 13:46:41 GMT -5
I think Vince knew he couldn’t have Bret put him over clean as Bret was his fall-back guy. This was the biggest problem of 1995. Bret and Taker were the only credible main eventers in the WWF, with guys like HBK, Diesel, Razor and Owen all making a strong upper mid-card. Just like when Luger flopped the previous year, Vince needed Bret strong incase Diesel flopped (Diesel’s run was bad but Vince pushed through with it longer than he should have). Bret loses clean and he loses credibility, which Vince couldn’t have. Sucked for Diesel but he shouldn’t have been a full-fledged babyface to begin with. Had Diesel been allowed to be a tweener, or heel like he was around WM12, he could have been allowed to beat guys like Bret and Taker in heel fashion without Vince needing to worry about Bret looking bad. The sad thing is that Luger flopping was all on Vince's shoulders. I am 100% sure that anyone who was watching the WWE in 1993 would say, "I wanted Lex Luger to beat Yokozuna at SummerSlam and become WWE Champion." And it never happened, thus it cause all the fans to just go, "oh...." and the steam was gone. He tried building it back up in late '93 and early '94 but he even had to make Lex and Bret co-win the Rumble, knowing that the Lex Express may not have as many passengers as it had the previous summer. And he was right. Lex losing at WM X was like a "meh" when we all were waiting for the end of the night to see Bret beat Yoko to become WWE Champion. I agree 100%. I meant that Lugar and Nash’s runs were flops that could mainly be pointed at the booking. Nash would have killed it in ‘95 had he been allowed to be heel like in ‘96. |
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Oct 24, 2017 5:11:54 GMT -5
Man if there ever was a 80's guy who looked out of place in mid 90s WWF it was definitely Nikolai. Really stretching the boundaries of "dad bod" even back in 1995. Poor guy. Nikolai never had a "dad bod", he had a powerlifter body. A dad bod is a normal-looking guy with beer belly. But was he out of place? That's an understatement. I'm sure fans who started watching the WWF during the New Generation, especially the young ones, had little-to-no knowledge of the international politics that made Nikolai and the Sheik's characters main event fare 10 years prior. The WWF had no idea what to do with a middle-aged guy in the midst of a youth reset. I remember Vince hard-selling the sympathy angle during the period where Dibiase "owned" Nikolai, but the fans didn't care one way or another. |
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