jason1980s
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Post by jason1980s on Oct 9, 2019 7:53:55 GMT -5
Yokozuna I find to be quite a bit overrated. He was fine but his matches weren't that good ever. Not to mention that weird time period when they booked Cornette to be the mouthpiece despite Yoko already having Fuji. I think you're right about him being overrated though he was one of the best big men of the time period (also counting 1980s). I think the original appeal of him was only so much like a lot of big men of the 1980s and early 90s like Earthquake, Gang, Bundy or even smaller "feed to Hogan" bad guys. After an initial big feud and a loss they just went down the card. I think if Hogan had been planning to stay much longer that Yokozuna losing to him at the end of WrestleMania would mean Yokozuna wouldn't get a main event/title reign push through the next year. It would mean maybe a follow up PPV where Hogan wins again and Yokozuna goes to the mid card. After the loss to Bret at WrestleMania 10, his career kind of followed that pattern I mentioned. He had a brief feud with Typhoon, a few tag matches with Crush who meant very little at the time, he seemed to do very little on TV before the Survivor Series build up. When he returned in 1995 it was very cool at first and he was a threat but without a big tag team scene like the 1980s, tag teams didn't mean as much and it was clear Owen was the much bigger star. Continuing with his late 1995/early 1996 career he was just kind of there, Bulldog and Owen were being built stronger and Yokozuna had gained way too much weight and was being used primarily just to make other guys look good by either beating him or getting him off his feet. I think if he had lost some weight, WWF would have kept him as an Andre-like attraction and I think that's what they were hoping for in 1997 and 1998 before giving up. As for Lex, it seemed like both guys careers parallel a lot during the 1990s in WWF most specifically in April 1995 when both guys became tag wrestlers. Eventually both guys would be in the background compared to the partners who were being built for bigger things in WWF. Lex just happened to leave much earlier than Yokozuna, I'm sure seeing the writing on the wall. |
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HandsomeHollywood
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Post by HandsomeHollywood on Oct 9, 2019 8:09:21 GMT -5
Yokozuna I find to be quite a bit overrated. He was fine but his matches weren't that good ever. Not to mention that weird time period when they booked Cornette to be the mouthpiece despite Yoko already having Fuji. I think you're right about him being overrated though he was one of the best big men of the time period (also counting 1980s). I think the original appeal of him was only so much like a lot of big men of the 1980s and early 90s like Earthquake, Gang, Bundy or even smaller "feed to Hogan" bad guys. After an initial big feud and a loss they just went down the card. I think if Hogan had been planning to stay much longer that Yokozuna losing to him at the end of WrestleMania would mean Yokozuna wouldn't get a main event/title reign push through the next year. It would mean maybe a follow up PPV where Hogan wins again and Yokozuna goes to the mid card. After the loss to Bret at WrestleMania 10, his career kind of followed that pattern I mentioned. He had a brief feud with Typhoon, a few tag matches with Crush who meant very little at the time, he seemed to do very little on TV before the Survivor Series build up. When he returned in 1995 it was very cool at first and he was a threat but without a big tag team scene like the 1980s, tag teams didn't mean as much and it was clear Owen was the much bigger star. Continuing with his late 1995/early 1996 career he was just kind of there, Bulldog and Owen were being built stronger and Yokozuna had gained way too much weight and was being used primarily just to make other guys look good by either beating him or getting him off his feet. I think if he had lost some weight, WWF would have kept him as an Andre-like attraction and I think that's what they were hoping for in 1997 and 1998 before giving up. As for Lex, it seemed like both guys careers parallel a lot during the 1990s in WWF most specifically in April 1995 when both guys became tag wrestlers. Eventually both guys would be in the background compared to the partners who were being built for bigger things in WWF. Lex just happened to leave much earlier than Yokozuna, I'm sure seeing the writing on the wall. All fair points. I'm not sure that's standard "Hogan booking" so much as just the inevitable problem with a monster heel. They have to win. Losing to Bret hurting him illustrates this. The most blatant example of this to me is unmasked Kane. It really freshened up his character but by the end of the year he was Bischoff's on-screen punishment for babyfaces to beat. I'm not one who covets work rate highly, but if you're going to book a monster heel in the 90s he has to have some athleticism. The only case where a heel on top squashing people works to me is with Vader or modern Lesnar. If Bret Hart is to be believed, then we know Yoko was at times sabotaging his own matches because he'd be blown up so early. Bret said Yoko rushed to the finish at Mania 9 or X when they had a good plan mapped out. A guy that big calling his own shots in the ring is not good. I agree that I think being in a tag team in a strong division is probably the best use of him. As for Lex, I don't think he ever fit in. I have little time for WWF Luger. He's a WCW guy. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2019 8:27:24 GMT -5
Big, big fan of Luger.
His heel Narcissist gimmick had SOO much potential to be a top heel. It's a massive shame we didn't get to see a big main event match between Bret (face) and Luger (heel) in late 93 or early 94. I think his work's pretty under rated too, he didn't need to do anything flashy. He was competent work and had a bunch of great matches.
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Post by JokerFC on Oct 9, 2019 9:19:09 GMT -5
In 1995 Vince had WAYYYY too many faces. He needed heels....Lex turning back to the Narcissist was an effin no brainer to me. Fresh opponent for heaps of guys.....would have balanced out the roster nicely and by that time Lex was done as a face completely. Have him turn on Bret or someone to really seal the deal.
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jking1979
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Post by jking1979 on Oct 9, 2019 12:46:59 GMT -5
Yes. Lex Luger should have been a heel again since Bret Hart was picked for the top guy. He would still be an All American either way. Lugermania could run wild and then back to his cocky heel stuff for a feud with Bret Hart.
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TheEvilDoink1987
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Post by TheEvilDoink1987 on Oct 12, 2019 23:05:07 GMT -5
In 1995 Vince had WAYYYY too many faces. He needed heels....Lex turning back to the Narcissist was an effin no brainer to me. Fresh opponent for heaps of guys.....would have balanced out the roster nicely and by that time Lex was done as a face completely. Have him turn on Bret or someone to really seal the deal. Agreed. By 1995, Lex needed a total overhaul. The patriotic gimmick was dead especially considering how he fell short in all of his big matches. Even if he turned heel around the same time as Bulldog that summer it would've been welcome with how thin the roster was back then on credible main event heels. |
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Post by JokerFC on Oct 13, 2019 3:43:27 GMT -5
In 1995 Vince had WAYYYY too many faces. He needed heels....Lex turning back to the Narcissist was an effin no brainer to me. Fresh opponent for heaps of guys.....would have balanced out the roster nicely and by that time Lex was done as a face completely. Have him turn on Bret or someone to really seal the deal. Agreed. By 1995, Lex needed a total overhaul. The patriotic gimmick was dead especially considering how he fell short in all of his big matches. Even if he turned heel around the same time as Bulldog that summer it would've been welcome with how thin the roster was back then on credible main event heels. Vince underutilised his roster crazy back in 1995....its insane. His roster was thin..yes indeed but the had the tools to make it better. Post WM here's what the Face vs Heel ratio looked like from the upper midcard to ME Faces: Diesel HBK Razor Bret Bam Bam Undertaker Luger Buldog Heels: Sid Jarrett Owen Mabel (LOL) Am I missing any other credible heels? |
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Post by MKSavage on Oct 13, 2019 16:24:55 GMT -5
Agreed. By 1995, Lex needed a total overhaul. The patriotic gimmick was dead especially considering how he fell short in all of his big matches. Even if he turned heel around the same time as Bulldog that summer it would've been welcome with how thin the roster was back then on credible main event heels. Vince underutilised his roster crazy back in 1995....its insane. His roster was thin..yes indeed but the had the tools to make it better. Post WM here's what the Face vs Heel ratio looked like from the upper midcard to ME Faces: Diesel HBK Razor Bret Bam Bam Undertaker Luger Buldog Heels: Sid Jarrett Owen Mabel (LOL)
Am I missing any other credible heels?Yokozuna. That was the big problem with the WWF at that time, too many faces and not enough watchable heels. I think a heel Diesel and Lex would have been great for 1995. At the end of the year it would have been a little more even had they done that. Bret, Taker, Shawn, Razor, Bam Bam Diesel, Lex, Bulldog, Owen, Yokozuna, Sid |
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jason1980s
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Post by jason1980s on Oct 13, 2019 17:09:36 GMT -5
Judging by the lumberjacks at the In Your House, Mabel was pretty much the only challenger they could use for Diesel for Summerslam. Most of the guys used for lumberjacks were just about done or just coming in and very low on the card.
It's good they turned Bulldog and I think that gave him a few extra years but the biggest miss had to be not keeping Bam Bam as a heel after WrestleMania. I know they wanted Sid to be the main eventer but Bam Bam even meaner and more viscous would have given him more life and would make the storylines better. Instead they turned him and after King of the Ring it was pretty much over for him and I think he lost every PPV until he left.
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Post by JokerFC on Oct 13, 2019 17:55:14 GMT -5
Vince underutilised his roster crazy back in 1995....its insane. His roster was thin..yes indeed but the had the tools to make it better. Post WM here's what the Face vs Heel ratio looked like from the upper midcard to ME Faces: Diesel HBK Razor Bret Bam Bam Undertaker Luger Buldog Heels: Sid Jarrett Owen Mabel (LOL)
Am I missing any other credible heels?Yokozuna. That was the big problem with the WWF at that time, too many faces and not enough watchable heels. I think a heel Diesel and Lex would have been great for 1995. At the end of the year it would have been a little more even had they done that. Bret, Taker, Shawn, Razor, Bam Bam Diesel, Lex, Bulldog, Owen, Yokozuna, Sid I left Yoko off because of his weight issues...Vince was already starting to have issues with him in 1995. Bam Bam as a top tier heel could have been special I think..... |
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jking1979
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Post by jking1979 on Oct 15, 2019 8:08:59 GMT -5
Eric Bischoff didn't want to bring Lex Luger back to WCW. He did it because he was Sting's best friend. I think going back heel in WWE would have kept him relevant at the time. Vince McMahon didn't strike when the iron was hot at Summerslam. Bam Bam Bigelow has always been underrated. He just needed a manager.
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jason1980s
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Post by jason1980s on Oct 15, 2019 17:53:33 GMT -5
Yokozuna's role was diminishing at the time. His return was pretty big but after that it was obvious Owen was the star and eventually he was just used to put newer guys over.
I would think WWF should have felt burned by Bam Bam coming in, in 1987 with a mega push only to leave less than a year later.
I think 1995 was just a bad time all around for WWF.
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jking1979
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Post by jking1979 on Oct 16, 2019 6:03:18 GMT -5
Owen Hart's King of Harts gimmick was great. I could easily see Lex Luger rubbing his All American stuff in all of the fans faces just to piss them off.
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Post by warriorlynx on Oct 16, 2019 10:42:36 GMT -5
When you push someone like Lex as the next Hogan and people are buying it (yes people did everyone thinks no one cared yet there were lineups for the lex express for example), and you decide to leave the WWF title to Yoko (not to say he didn't deserve it and it was Lex's lack of passion that came into the decision), well that was the straw that broke the camel's back for his run.
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Post by JokerFC on Oct 17, 2019 17:27:41 GMT -5
When you push someone like Lex as the next Hogan and people are buying it (yes people did everyone thinks no one cared yet there were lineups for the lex express for example), and you decide to leave the WWF title to Yoko (not to say he didn't deserve it and it was Lex's lack of passion that came into the decision), well that was the straw that broke the camel's back for his run. your 100% right here man. People did care....Lugers arrival on the Intrepid & slamming of Yoko was the absolute perfect set up. People turned out in droves for him and He received a serious ovation @ Summerslam 1993. But Vince didn't pull the trigger....and I don't care what anyone says? No act would have recovered from that...he was damaged goods afterwards. Choked again @ WMX. I still think Vince should have had him beat Yoko then let him & Bret square off in the ME. Match would have been far better than what we got with Bret vs Yoko. You then use this to turn Luger slow....@ Summerslam 1994 turn him heel. Absolute rake of opponents for him.....Razor, UT, Bret, Diesel, Bulldog, Kid & Tatanka. yup have Tatanka be his first feud and let Luger whoop him good. By the time RR rolls around you have another bonafide top heel. But FFS keep him away from Dibiase's Jobber stable.... |
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jking1979
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Post by jking1979 on Oct 17, 2019 21:53:28 GMT -5
I saw somebody mention the Million Dollar Corporation. Mike Rotunda was a great wrestler. He should have been a member of the Four Horsemen. Lex Luger's best matches in WWE were against Tatanka.
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Post by JokerFC on Oct 18, 2019 5:12:36 GMT -5
I mentioned them as the jobber stable above....IMHO they were absolute sh*te. Vince was capable of an awful lot better in 94/95...especially with talented mouthpiece like Dibiase at the helm.
I've said it 100 times...Vince had the tools & the talent to deliver a much better 1995...but He didn't do it. Guys misused to beat the band.
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jason1980s
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Post by jason1980s on Oct 18, 2019 14:53:22 GMT -5
The Million Dollar Team was behind the times in terms of the wrestlers popularity and talent. Even adding Lex would have been a year too late. He was at his top as a heel before the face turn. Most of the other guys were past their prime and had been on the losing end of feuds before joining.
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