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Post by LaParka on Mar 23, 2020 14:57:04 GMT -5
Our supreme idiot in charge said it was a hoax, when it was a real issue. He always tries to make everything about himself, going after a reporter, its time for Don the con to grow up, and put his childish antics behind him. It's really people first and his petty games can be played later. Come election time a lot of people are going to remember that. Would Hillary, Bernie, Obama, Bush have handled it any better who really knows. Going by the news media some politicians are doing very well, and others are not really handling it great. 9/11 attacks Rudy handled it very well in NYC, Hurricane Sandy Obama was everywhere he could get, this is on a much higher level than those 2 things.
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Post by slappy on Mar 23, 2020 15:00:07 GMT -5
a lot of you have embarrassed yourselves on this thread. Jokes on you. I embarrass myself in every thread.
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Post by slappy on Mar 23, 2020 15:00:55 GMT -5
It's definitely laughable to think Hillary would have been worse in the situation we're in. She certainly wouldn't have fired the US Pandemic Response team! IDK how she'd be in this situation but in foreign policy she'd definitely be worse.
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Post by Nivro™ on Mar 23, 2020 18:04:09 GMT -5
I giggle any time anyone quotes a "poll" (or uses as a source).....seriously did nobody learn anything from all those 2016 polls that had Hillary winning in land slides?
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Post by slappy on Mar 23, 2020 18:07:05 GMT -5
IDK how she'd be in this situation but in foreign policy she'd definitely be worse. Please give examples of how Hillary would be worse and then please give examples of how Trump has been good in foreign policy. Hillary wanted a no fly zone in Syria. If Russia crossed that no fly zone then action would have been taken. We'd probably have boots on the ground in Iran and Syria. Trump is ramping up on Iran but I fully believe with Hillary we'd already be at war with them. I'm not saying Trump is good on foreign policy but he's been better than the past several Presidents. He hasn't started any wars. He's pulling out of Afghanistan. He pulled out of Syria. Of course, he is still helping Saudi Arabia with their genocide in Yemen but Obama did too and Hillary would have as well since we bend the knee when it comes to SA so that's obviously bad.
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Post by shanieomaniac on Mar 24, 2020 0:46:39 GMT -5
Just sayin'.... Put a scientist in the White House. See what happens. I guess it can't be any worse than putting lawyers or veterans or businessmen or peanut farmers in. Don't forget the Actor. That was a fun one.
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Post by shanieomaniac on Mar 24, 2020 1:01:32 GMT -5
I dont really know what to think, believe or trust anymore when it comes to this country. I think that's the biggest problem. Not enough people are willing to admit when they dont and they just side with the left or the right habitually. We dont care about platforms, we care about red or blue. We dont do research, we dont ask the hard questions. We dont hold leaders accountable. We just side with whoever we always side with. I dont see it getting any better in our lives either. I'd like to be wrong on that of course. I can agree on that. People are lazy, stubborn, ignorant, and nowadays find comfort in only seeking out information that affirms their biases and beliefs. I believe one of the massive failures in our country was when news/media organizations began focusing their content to exploit and inflame these weaknesses for their own profit. No amount of intellectual thought will permeate the masses when most can find much more appetizing content with blowhards online or in primetime television. And as long as that structure remains, so too will this vegetative coma of common sense and decency. Some may cry about free speech, but to me nothing is more dire an example of "yelling fire in a crowded theatre" when the theatre is our nation and the fire is progressive ideals and foreigners. I'm not going to comment on the second part, but the first part is absolutely correct. Someone commented on putting a scientist in the White House. Here's the thing about scientists. A good scientist deals strictly in facts. Well educated, tested, and proven facts at that. Every intelligent scientist on the planet believes in, lets say, gravity right now. It's accepted as a fact, and we move on. However, if somehow, tomorrow, new tried, tested, and proven information would be revealed that everything we know about gravity is a lie? Then those same scientists would change their points of view to suit the new facts. That's the thing about science. It evolves as more research and information becomes available. However, contrast that with most political viewpoints across the country, and especially most politically-minded news sources. They never seem to change their viewpoints based on the facts, they change the facts based on their viewpoints. Both sides do it every single time. And every faction within those two sides does it as well. Right now there is this horrible story going around about Joe Biden and burying a dog. If someone tomorrow were to post a photograph of Joe, holding a dog at a rally, the faction of democrats supporting Biden would headline that photograph about how Biden is an animal lover. The faction of democrats against Biden would label it as proof that he buried the dog. But the point is, it's the same photograph. That's what people keep missing. There's so much dang spin these days it's sickening. You can't even get pure facts anymore because most so-called reliable sources are still horribly biased. The whole system is broken, the media included especially. Bottom line.
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walkingturtles
Main Eventer
Joined on: Apr 22, 2018 19:54:00 GMT -5
Posts: 1,702
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Post by walkingturtles on Mar 24, 2020 9:32:47 GMT -5
Hillary wanted a no fly zone in Syria. If Russia crossed that no fly zone then action would have been taken. We'd probably have boots on the ground in Iran and Syria. Trump is ramping up on Iran but I fully believe with Hillary we'd already be at war with them. I'm not saying Trump is good on foreign policy but he's been better than the past several Presidents. He hasn't started any wars. He's pulling out of Afghanistan. He pulled out of Syria. Of course, he is still helping Saudi Arabia with their genocide in Yemen but Obama did too and Hillary would have as well since we bend the knee when it comes to SA so that's obviously bad. I am just making this reply so it appears I don't ignore this, I'll come back to it and give a proper rebuttal. My time in the past week and a half has been a logistical nightmare work wise, but I do want to do some point / counter-point on this. Trump pulled us into a better NAFTA deal. Pulled us out of the Trans-Pacific deal and Paris Accords(both which would have more negative impact on American economy). He brought North Korea to the table and became the first sitting President to step foot on North Korea. That in and of itself is an achievement. He wiped out ISIS and continues to kill high level terrorist targets. He also is full of himself and tweets mean things but that doesn’t bother me so much. The previous president thought he was a celebrity too.
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Post by slappy on Mar 26, 2020 20:05:18 GMT -5
I'll use this as the jumping off point and to use it also as my reply to slappy . I can't say how Hillary would be, since she didn't become President. I can only see how she was under Obama and what we've seen and perhaps draw a conclusion, but its mostly in dealing with a hypothetical outcome. This is why I asked the first part of my question in how would she be worse, because I am not familiar enough with her good. I know how I feel about Trump and his policies and think he's doing a poor job, so since it was stated she would be worse, I was curious to know, especially from someone who is has very clear conservative views and opinions, since I don't feel I would have received a good answer if I asked for how she would be better. I can speak easier on how I feel about Trump because I've been more focused on politics in the last four years than I have in the last twenty.
The easiest way for me to do this is just outline stuff that Trump has done and/or said and see if he has done a good job. And I'll start by taking walkingturtles reply and go from there. Also, my replies are not meant to be combative, they're more of I'm taking what you said, and then showing my opinion and I fully welcome you to reply back with more input to try and persuade me. For as much as I give, I also want differentiating opinions and facts to ensure I see the whole picture. "Trump pulled us into a better NAFTA deal." - From the International Trade Commission report that you can read here, it states on page 21 of 382: "In light of the size of the U.S. economy relative to the size of the Mexican and Canadian economies, as well as the reduction in tariff and nontariff barriers that has already taken place among the three countries under NAFTA, the impact of the agreement on the U.S. economy is likely to be moderate."
Moderate is hardly a word I would use to say that he pulled us into a better NAFTA deal. Moderate as I read it here feels almost lateral. Also, the report on page 49 of 382 gives the information & statistics of:
"The economy-wide model estimates the U.S. economy’s complete a djustment to the full implementation of USMCA, which is assumed to be year 6 after USMCA enters into force. Therefore, the estimates show the impact of the modeled provisions after the economy has responded to the changes in USMCA. The estimates show the incremental effects of USMCA relative to a baseline that reflects the U.S. economy in 2017 and assumes that no other changes to the economy unfold." and then "The economy-wide model estimates that many aspects of the U.S. economy would likely grow under USMCA. Estimates indicate that U.S. real GDP would grow by 0.35 percent ($68.2 billion) and employment would grow by 0.12 percent (about 176,000 jobs). Exports to Canada and Mexico would increase by about 5.9 and 6.7 percent ($19.1 billion and $14.2 billion), respectively."
These values are over a six year period from when its implemented, meaning it will add 176,000 jobs over six years, that's barely adding 29,000 jobs a year. This is hardly anything to say we're in a better position. That's like me offering to buy something you're selling for $5, but the guy next to me offers to give you $5.25, yeah you made a profit, but really, that's nothing amazing. What I see in that report, given the time outlined and the projected numbers, its barely moving the needle.
"Pulled us out of the Trans-Pacific deal and Paris Accords(both which would have more negative impact on American economy)." -
First, the Trans-Pacific Partnership. I don't know how this would have a negative impact on the American economy being in it when " the trade deal would have served a geopolitical purpose, namely to reduce the signatories' dependence on Chinese trade and bring the signatories closer to the United States." We walked away from something that takes business away from China and helps bring it closer to us? And this is good? Not to mention about a year and a half later Trump said " Would only join TPP if the deal were substantially better than the deal offered to Pres. Obama." But if he walked away because it was good to do so, why would he want to renegotiate to get back in? That doesn't add up. Especially too, why would he want to renegotiate back in when the remaining countries created their own new deal and thus making it harder for us to have leverage in the deal? Is this the 'Art of the Deal' he speaks about in his book? Second, the Paris Climate Accord. To say that pulling out of this agreement is good is something I can't be persuaded on. I feel if you (in the general sense) think this is a good move its because I assume you're blindly loyal to Trump's actions and beliefs, don't believe in climate change, and frankly don't care for the environment. As a firm believer in Science and climate change being a very real, I feel this was a horrible decision. I feel particularly confident saying this was a bad idea, when many of our worlds best nations said that Trump pulling out of the agreement was regrettable and disappointing. Its also worth noting that 13 states are ignoring Trump's actions out by continuing forward to uphold the Paris Accord. How does this have negative impact on the American economy? Its meant to limit the effects of global warming. The only ones who seemed grateful and beneficial by this are coal companies, those really fixated on they have a non-renewable resource and see clean/renewable energy as a threat. It was also something nearly 200 countries came to an agreement on. We are one of the few, if not only, countries not in it. You also have some of the biggest companies in our country also going forward by continuing what they're doing and performing as if we're still in the accord. I don't see this having any negative impact since we're largely carrying on with what we're already doing.
"He brought North Korea to the table and became the first sitting President to step foot on North Korea. That in and of itself is an achievement." -
Let me say, is it impressive in itself that he did step foot into North Korea? Sure. Let's take away hindsight for a moment here and lets not forget that leading up to this moment he was taunting an unhinged leader by saying "met with fire and fury and frankly power, the likes of which this world has never seen before". To have been sitting here while a guy practically inched us closer to World War III in some weird flex is something I don't think is commendable. I'm not sure either how he brought North Korea to the table either. He threatened him with nuclear weapons then met Kim Jong-un. I don't hear much going on in terms of trade, being an ally or even most importantly the denuclearization of North Korea. As recent as November 28, 2019, North Korea was firing missiles. And then followed by ambassador to North Korea, Kim Song, saying " We do not need to have lengthy talks with the US now and the denuclearization is already gone out of the negotiation table." "He wiped out ISIS and continues to kill high level terrorist targets." -
Did he wipe out ISIS? I think its better to talk about what happened and see. Under his watch the city of Raqqa was liberated which was considered the capital for ISIS in Syria, but the plans in place were put there under Obama's administration and Trump's administration largely just continued them nearly two and a half years after being in place. I don't think its necessarily fair to say that he wiped out ISIS, he merely was part of a multi-man relay race and finished the last lap but took more credit. I do acknowledge though that he did do his part, but to say "he wiped them out" has more implications than needed. So let me look at some other things that has happened while Trump has been in charge. The travel ban that trump imposed that was more of a ban towards Muslims. Six of the eight countries were predominantly Muslim and this backs a claim from Trumps campaign website that read "DONALD J. TRUMP STATEMENT ON PREVENTING MUSLIM IMMIGRATION." and said "Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country’s representatives can figure out what is going on." Which " Muslim ban language suddenly disappears from Trump campaign website after Spicer questioned". Why remove that verbiage if you made your campaign promise true? Given how long its taken me to reply with my schedule lately, I feel like I can keep finding more things that I don't necessarily agree with, but its going to take more time to further delay this post.
NAFTA sucked and USMCA sucks too and so does TPP. I agree, pulling out of the Paris Accord was stupid. He brought North Korea to the table by being loud and obnoxious. Both sides are to blame for things not getting done. There will hopefully be more time to work on it. Russia really helped wipe out ISIS. Killing the Iranian General was bad. I don't see how Trump can only close the borders sometimes. Like with the virus he can close them down and prevent travel which is obviously to prevent more cases and deaths. If he feels the borders should be shut down to prevent terrorism that's bad apparently. If it was a Muslim ban then wouldn't all Muslim countries or even most of them be part of the ban? Only a few were. And as you said, there were non-Muslim countries included in the ban. Assad didn't gas his own people.
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Post by slappy on Mar 27, 2020 16:36:10 GMT -5
Khan Shaykhun chemical attack Trump says a lot of things that aren't true. Why would Assad gas his own people when he's on the verge of victory? He would know that doing that would only incur retaliation. It's possible it was the opposition/terrorists. The leader of OPCW at the time of the gas attack was a diplomat from Turkey which has a vested interest in seeing Assad go. But I'm sure it's just a coincidence.
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Post by slappy on Mar 27, 2020 18:49:26 GMT -5
Trump says a lot of things that aren't true. One more time a little louder so the people in the back can hear you. I'm not a sycophant so I can point out when someone is wrong. I just still think he's better than Biden.
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Post by bWo on Mar 28, 2020 11:23:06 GMT -5
Our supreme idiot in charge said it was a hoax, when it was a real issue. He always tries to make everything about himself, going after a reporter, its time for Don the con to grow up, and put his childish antics behind him. It's really people first and his petty games can be played later. Come election time a lot of people are going to remember that. Would Hillary, Bernie, Obama, Bush have handled it any better who really knows. Going by the news media some politicians are doing very well, and others are not really handling it great. 9/11 attacks Rudy handled it very well in NYC, Hurricane Sandy Obama was everywhere he could get, this is on a much higher level than those 2 things. China is blaming America for this virus and the American media spends their time attacking Trump for calling it the Chinese Virus instead of biting back at China and calling their bullpoop. The American reporters you seem to have a soft spot for spend more time defending China than they do America. If Trump's antics are "childish" how would you describe the media's antics? The same media that was blaming Donald Trump for someone's death because a man and a woman were dumb as poop and drank fish tank cleaner? The Democrats voted down a stimulus bill because they wanted it to include things like student loan forgiveness and carbon emission reductions. You think THEY were putting the people suffering from this right now first? You're right though. Come election time people are going to remember that. As for Rudy (why mention him when Bush was President?) and Barry, would you like Trump to get out for more hugs and handshakes during this pandemic?
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Post by Grumpyoldman on Mar 28, 2020 11:37:04 GMT -5
Folks, please.
Channel your disagreements towards other energy.
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Post by rkmo: 9 Month Warning on Mar 28, 2020 12:47:40 GMT -5
Our supreme idiot in charge said it was a hoax, when it was a real issue. He always tries to make everything about himself, going after a reporter, its time for Don the con to grow up, and put his childish antics behind him. It's really people first and his petty games can be played later. Come election time a lot of people are going to remember that. Would Hillary, Bernie, Obama, Bush have handled it any better who really knows. Going by the news media some politicians are doing very well, and others are not really handling it great. 9/11 attacks Rudy handled it very well in NYC, Hurricane Sandy Obama was everywhere he could get, this is on a much higher level than those 2 things. China is blaming America for this virus and the American media spends their time attacking Trump for calling it the Chinese Virus instead of biting back at China and calling their bullpoop. The American reporters you seem to have a soft spot for spend more time defending China than they do America. If Trump's antics are "childish" how would you describe the media's antics? The same media that was blaming Donald Trump for someone's death because a man and a woman were dumb as poop and drank fish tank cleaner? The Democrats voted down a stimulus bill because they wanted it to include things like student loan forgiveness and carbon emission reductions. You think THEY were putting the people suffering from this right now first? You're right though. Come election time people are going to remember that. As for Rudy (why mention him when Bush was President?) and Barry, would you like Trump to get out for more hugs and handshakes during this pandemic? Most news organizations are spending time trying to convince people of the importance of taking these social procedures seriously, advocating for the needs of hospitals and medical personnel, and disproving "home remedies" for the virus (one of which is the chloroquine that Trump once touted as having great promise and his medical experts tried to immediately tamp down). I am sure they would like to cover whatever lies the Chinese government are saying, but maybe they are continuously dealing with the lies started in this country to focus on obviously false claims of others. The infighting with Congress over the $2 trillion "relief" bill is a two-way street, as much is anything they do. If Republicans' main goal was helping people, why should they quibble with insignificant additions? Dems mainly pushed for more benefits for the most financially vulnerable and assurances federal aid from taxpayers would help workers and secure their jobs, not the corporate heads. Of course, this Administration immediately refuted any claims of Congressional oversight, as they have with every move they've taken these past three+ years. As for my personal wishes for a certain individual's handling of this crisis, I would have hoped for him to take this with the utmost importance from the beginning, as evidence of a possible worldwide spread had been around since January and simulations last year showed weaknesses and shortcomings in our medical system that would hamper our handling in a pandemic scenario. I would have hoped he'd at least have enough humility buried down somewhere to allow the focus of national addresses to be on the medical experts, not sucking the oxygen from news channels' primetime programming. I would have hoped he put his partisan, narcissistic impulses aside in the face of thousands dying a sorrowful, lonely death. I would have hoped for him not to use the power and reliance of the federal government in this time to demand praise, gloat about "red" GOP areas not showing signs of outbreaks like Dem strongholds, and withhold necessary lifesaving equipment from Dem-controlled states, because this virus doesn't recognize political affiliation or state/national borders. I was aware enough to not expect any of this, of course.
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Post by Nick the Quick on Mar 28, 2020 16:43:57 GMT -5
February 28, 2020-Coronavirus was the Democrats next hoax.
March 28, 2020-At least 115,000 confirmed cases with no sign of the spread slowing down anytime soon.
That tells you everything you need to know about which way to vote come November.
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Post by bad guy™ on Mar 28, 2020 19:50:55 GMT -5
February 28, 2020-Coronavirus was the Democrats next hoax. March 28, 2020-At least 115,000 confirmed cases with no sign of the spread slowing down anytime soon. That tells you everything you need to know about which way to vote come November. Aye.
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Post by Nivro™ on Mar 28, 2020 20:20:06 GMT -5
I wish people would actually listen to speeches/interviews & not just random tweets to justify their "opinion". Trump has never called the coronavirus itself a hoax. He said the democrats would make it their next hoax ala politicizing it. (he likes using the term hoax, I dunno) Which is exactly what they've done. Everything they've tried to throw at Trump to get him impeached and/or out of office for the last 4 years has failed absolutely miserably to the point they're laughing stocks. Now they're politicizing the virus to try and damage the Trump Admin.
Ill never be 100% behind Trump (although I did and will vote for him again) and I may be moderate/moderate leaning when it comes to most social issues, but until the left loses the pettiness & changes their stance on economic views I cant see any reason for me to vote Democrat.
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Post by bad guy™ on Mar 28, 2020 20:34:03 GMT -5
I wish people would actually listen to speeches/interviews & not just random tweets to justify their "opinion". Trump has never called the coronavirus itself a hoax. He said the democrats would make it their next hoax ala politicizing it. (he likes using the term hoax, I dunno) Which is exactly what they've done. Everything they've tried to throw at Trump to get him impeached and/or out of office for the last 4 years has failed absolutely miserably to the point they're laughing stocks. Now they're politicizing the virus to try and damage the Trump Admin. Ill never be 100% behind Trump (although I did and will vote for him again) and I may be moderate/moderate leaning when it comes to most social issues, but until the left loses the pettiness & changes their stance on economic views I cant see any reason for me to vote Democrat. Oh, I think Trump has handled it decently after getting his head out of his ass at the beginning of the month. But he's so gung-ho about reopening everything on Easter, same day China is reopening with restrictions. Difference is, so far as we know the worst of it is over in China for now. We went from 82k to 100k in 24 hours. Pittsburgh and Philly are raising the curve faster than New York City and Seattle did when you consider first cases and basic percentages, especially considering the population difference. Louisiana is literally exploding. Michigan is about to. New York and Washington show no signs of slowing. Two weeks isn't going to change that. So I went from hating him, to thinking he was doing decent, back to thinking he's in his own world again as he was at the start of the month.
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Post by Nivro™ on Mar 28, 2020 21:07:17 GMT -5
I wish people would actually listen to speeches/interviews & not just random tweets to justify their "opinion". Trump has never called the coronavirus itself a hoax. He said the democrats would make it their next hoax ala politicizing it. (he likes using the term hoax, I dunno) Which is exactly what they've done. Everything they've tried to throw at Trump to get him impeached and/or out of office for the last 4 years has failed absolutely miserably to the point they're laughing stocks. Now they're politicizing the virus to try and damage the Trump Admin. Ill never be 100% behind Trump (although I did and will vote for him again) and I may be moderate/moderate leaning when it comes to most social issues, but until the left loses the pettiness & changes their stance on economic views I cant see any reason for me to vote Democrat. Oh, I think Trump has handled it decently after getting his head out of his ass at the beginning of the month. But he's so gung-ho about reopening everything on Easter, same day China is reopening with restrictions. Difference is, so far as we know the worst of it is over in China for now. We went from 82k to 100k in 24 hours. Pittsburgh and Philly are raising the curve faster than New York City and Seattle did when you consider first cases and basic percentages, especially considering the population difference. Louisiana is literally exploding. Michigan is about to. New York and Washington show no signs of slowing. Two weeks isn't going to change that. So I went from hating him, to thinking he was doing decent, back to thinking he's in his own world again as he was at the start of the month. Things certainly dont need to be reopened and honestly I think there needs to be more of a crackdown on what is "essential". I do think things need to be taken seriously but I also do believe there's a bit of "mass hysteria" going on thats being fueled by the media. That being said I think the outcry of hysteria once the US numbers started to climbed and pointing the blame about them towards Trump is laughable. Anyone with any lick of remote common sense knew that the US would eventually have one of the top 1-3 highest totals of this virus regardless of what any sitting President, regardless of party, had done. We've got the 3rd largest population, we the 2nd most traveling country and lets be honest we're likely the most unhealthy population of any established civilization.
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Post by johnnyb on Mar 28, 2020 22:07:02 GMT -5
I wish people would actually listen to speeches/interviews & not just random tweets to justify their "opinion". Trump has never called the coronavirus itself a hoax. He said the democrats would make it their next hoax ala politicizing it. (he likes using the term hoax, I dunno) "Trump never called Coronavirus a hoax." *Trump literally uses the word "hoax" to describe Coronavirus* "Ah well, nonetheless"
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