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Post by bad guy™ on Apr 15, 2020 22:20:56 GMT -5
Yep. Human euthanasia is legal in a handful of states here in the US, and in a few European countries. There's a ton of caveats to it though. 1. You MUST be of sound mind. No one with things like dementia can do it. 2. Your condition must be terminal. Traditionally it's been used on pancreatic cancer patients with weeks to live, and the only other option is pain. 3. You must be doing it of your own free will, and for your death to not be an attempt to ease any familial burdens. (Like if a rich man has money saved in a locked escrow for his kids, but they can't get it till he dies. If the old man is killing himself just to free up the funds, it's not allowed.) 4. Whether it is by pill, or injection, you must do it on your own. A nurse cannot administer it for you. They will bring you the pill or the needle, but neither they, nor family, can be the ones to do it, even if the person is handicapped. Traditionally, human euthanasia has only been used on cancer patients, or total failure of your organs with no time for a transplant. An exception can be made for partial brain failure, as long as the part that is still fine is cognizant of the choice they are making, seeing as the brain can clot and heal bruising and things like that, but when brain cells die, they die. It's the only organ in our bodies that can't repair itself which is ironic because it's the most important one. That said, COVID is absolutely brutal. Mild cases can be coped with should be OK if doctors orders are followed. But in the very severe cases, if it looks like the lungs have begun to fail as a result of the virus (it attacks our lungs mostly) and they're basically going to be on life support for the rest of their lives, there's two options depending on what the dying patient said before going under into the coma. A, if it gets too bad and the wish has been known regarding DNR orders, the person's power of attorney can have the plug pulled and turn off the respirator and have them die that way. Option B, if the person made it clear before they went into their coma, should they want to die on THEIR terms and not the virus' timeline, they can be taken off of the respirator, woken up, put on a temporary oxygen mask or sleep apnea CPAP mask so they can breathe a tiny bit while they fill out the paperwork. Once it's done, the nurse gives them the pill, or the needle is attached to their arm and they're given a button to press when they're ready, and they'll be injected and just...go to sleep. But they went out on their terms. There's a massive argument about human euthanasia. Some are vehemently against it and would rather a person stay on life support and suffer till their last day as God would have wanted. Some say that the list of approved reasons, within reason, should be expanded. That's why we don't have a federal law for or against it. All Presidents from Johnson to Trump have taken a hands off approach on it, leaving it up to the individual states to decide on the levity and the wording. It's similar to the death penalty, it's a state's right to choose if they want to allow executions for murderers or not. Human euthanasia has been a hot topic for centuries, going back to the Greeks. Someone who was going to die could either die naturally, or drink hemlock. The Romans had a similar stance as the Greeks, either natural or arsenic. It came to prominence in the western world when American physician Dr. Kevorkian, the Doctor of Death, started euthenizing patients that requested it. They had to follow the same set of rules as patients now do, but it was illegal and considered murder to aid in assisted suicide. He spent a long time in jail. Right before my father died, he had sought out Kevorkian to help him as he was totally paralyzed from the neck down, had lung, esophageal, liver, skin, ocular, stomach, and pancreatic cancers. He also had multiple sclerosis, and this was before treatments existed so with all lf those problems, the doctors at the Veteran's Hospital gave him a prescription for morophine, but he was given a full pharmaceutical bottle of it that they use to store the meds until they're dispensed and just told him tk take it as needed, and tk call for another bottle when he finished that one. This was back when no one monitored pain meds like they do now, and even today the VA is not as heavily hounded for pain med dispensation unlike other hospitals. Basically, a blind eye is USUALLY turned in aot of cases out of support for their fellow soldier who served and is now dying in agonizing pain. However, Kevorkian was unable to come to my dad as the government was on his trail so it wasn't safe for him to travel cross country knowing the legal issues he was in. That said, Kevorkian's ethical sta dards and rules for him to allow it were adopted once it was made legal in certain places. So once he was vilified as a monster, but now is heralded for doing what no one would do: help a person with a death sentence and no hope of recovery end it a on their terms rather than what's killing them I ternally. That's the history of it. I don't know if you agree or disagree, and that's fine. But by understanding the history of it all the way back to Socrates, up to where we are today, you can at least see the logistics of why it's being offered, and how bad it has to truly be for the doctors to present that option to COVID patients, putting their end of life care in, essentially, the same deadly category as inoperable, metastaticized cancer patients. Jesus christ. I had no idea any of that was legal. Mind . ^ don’t want to quote that whole post again but I was gonna say the exact same thing: total mind Yep. It's not legal everywhere, but it's slowly gaining popularity. If you thi k about it regarding the elderly, often times they're put into palliative care/Hospice to finish out their final days. But the nurses can only do so much to keep a dying person comfortable because even pumping them full of fetenyl and morphine can only do so much for pain when literally everything in your body from your organs to your bone marrow production is all just failing, and doing so rapidly. People who support it call it mercy killing. I don't think that's the greatest name, but I do see it as an act of mercy. The human body can only take so much, and despite all of the pain and other problems your body is still trying to heal itself which causes more pain because things that have broken down are trying to work anyways. Think of it like a car where all of your tires blew, and the transmission is held together by a piece of chicken wire that's coming undone. Is the car technically still operating? Yes. But is the car as good as dead, beyond hope for repair? Yes. So you take the car to a junkyard and put it out of its misery as to not make matters even worse, or still trying to use it and eventually everything goes when you least expect it and you wind up hurting other people. Waiting for death is kind of like that. It's prolonging the inevitable for the sake of everyone else around you. And if you are for sure about to die, would you rather die alone when no one expects you to die at some random moment, thus scared and alone in your final moments? Of course not. Sure, you can't predict when the last moment will be exactly, but still, high probability you die alone in your hospital bed in the middle of the afternoon when your family is all at work, or the middle of the night when you can't have visitors anyways. At least with doctor assisted euthanasia, assuming you meet the criteria, you get to go on YOUR terms. You can tell your family the date and time. Gives you one last chance to tell every family member that can get to you that you love them, wish them well, don't mourn for you, and goodbye kisses and hugs. It's a guarantee. So so long as you make the decision on the date and time with your medical team, and don't pass suddenly before the pill or injection, you get to go out on your terms and not the disease's. You get to say goodbye to your family and friends. You get to hug and kiss every last one of them. And most importantly, while it will hurt them seeing you fall asleep for the last time, they get to fulfill your final wish for you. Not dying alone, and everyone getting to say goodbye in person. Again, this example I'm giving is a combination of what I read from Kevorkian, and from articles written by those who were left behind. But COVID is very unpredictable, and if you get a serious case where it starts filling your lungs faster than they can drain, and they start devoping necrosis be ause of the lack of oxygenated blood because you can't breathe...that's something that can and most likely will take you at any second. At that point, you want control of one last thing, and any final wishes to be fulfilled. Again, I get that there are many parts of this issue and I don't expect anyone to agree or disagree with me. All I'm saying is that I totally understand the logic behind it, and it's not my place to tell someone else what they should do when they're about to die anyways. Let them go out how they want. Don't have to agree or disagree, but at the very least respect the decision and let them have the last say over their own lives as long as they're cognizant of their choice either way. We all deserve to die happy and at peace. Whatever form that takes for me, might be different for you. Ya know?
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Apr 15, 2020 22:28:46 GMT -5
The number of fatalities is almost certainly greater than what is being reported. The numbers are based on people known to have the virus prior to treatment, then officially succumbing to it. There are most definitely people who didn't have access to testing, declined treatment, or slipped through the cracks of record-keeping as hospitals were overloaded and understaffed. It's currently at 130,000 worldwide with over 29,000 in the US. Those are truly scary numbers, especially since so many hot spots have yet to peak. LINKNumbers like that would definitely suggest that the recovery rate is higher. Those people were tested for one reason or another and were found to have covid even though it wasn't affecting them. Those "positive tests" and "recoveries" are counted. Had they not been tested they would have recovered never knowing they had it, and those "positive tests" and "recoveries" wouldn't have been counted. If those asymptomatic numbers are accurate, imagine how many people had it, didn't get tested because they had no reason to think they should, and then recovered. Those missing "infected" and "recovered" numbers would go a long way when looking at accurate mortality rates, especially if we're talking about numbers like 50 to 80% of people feeling no effects. That has the potential to drastically change the numbers. That's part of what had made this outbreak so rapid. It's effects are erratic, and that mechanism isn't well-understood at this point. Asymptomatic people can, and most certainly are, shedding the virus to other individuals. They're setting the stage for more outbreaks. The more resistant the population is to social distancing, the greater the number of needless deaths will be. link
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Post by Nivro™ on Apr 15, 2020 22:46:58 GMT -5
We're never going to know exact numbers of deaths/recoveries. There's no doubt in my mind that people were dying from COVID19 and doctors were misdiagnosing it as the flu. In turn I have no doubts that doctors/hospital personnel would take the death of said person from cancer and mark it as a COVID death because somewhere there's a kickback either money or supplies wise.
The same can be said for recoveries....Simply put, an accurate number for something like this will forever and always be a true mystery.
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Post by bad guy™ on Apr 15, 2020 23:25:23 GMT -5
We're never going to know exact numbers of deaths/recoveries. There's no doubt in my mind that people were dying from COVID19 and doctors were misdiagnosing it as the flu. In turn I have no doubts that doctors/hospital personnel would take the death of said person from cancer and mark it as a COVID death because somewhere there's a kickback either money or supplies wise. The same can be said for recoveries....Simply put, an accurate number for something like this will forever and always be a true mystery. Look, I'm all for your "everyone against the Republicans" conspiracy theories, but forgive me if I want to believe that hospitals, who may have political opinions, aren't making their doctors and in house coroners fudge the numbers considering that'd hurt EVERYONE from both sides of the aisle. This is the fastest spreading pandemic the world has ever seen. It's not getting the body count of Swine Flu, the Spanish Flu, or the Bubonic Plague, but this virus spreads a ton faster. Its body count may never hit those numbers, but the infected count, by the time this dies down in the next couple of years, is easily going to be in the ballpark of half a billion, which trumps the other plagues by a wide margin. And hell, take Swine out of the picture, if this disease hit 60+ years ago? The death count would be astronomical because of the lack of medical advancement. Again, and you know I love you, but I can deal with the "conservatives are being persecuted politically at every turn" even if I don't agree. But damn, this is a whole different situation and not the time to pull that card. Had Boris Johnson died, as it looked like he was going to, would you consider that a fudged example because he's second only to Trump in terms of who's the most well known in nationalism popularity? Again. I love ya. But not every single thing that happens is because of kickbacks to harm the powers that be, in this case conservatives that just so happen to have their penultimate leader up for reelection this year. Coincidences do occur, ya know. Some of them are positive, but some are negative too. EDIT: And for the record, I know you didn't bring up politics directly, but the fudged numbers idea has become a battle cry for Republicans this election. We all know that.
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Post by Nivro™ on Apr 15, 2020 23:46:35 GMT -5
We're never going to know exact numbers of deaths/recoveries. There's no doubt in my mind that people were dying from COVID19 and doctors were misdiagnosing it as the flu. In turn I have no doubts that doctors/hospital personnel would take the death of said person from cancer and mark it as a COVID death because somewhere there's a kickback either money or supplies wise. The same can be said for recoveries....Simply put, an accurate number for something like this will forever and always be a true mystery. Look, I'm all for your "everyone against the Republicans" conspiracy theories, but forgive me if I want to believe that hospitals, who may have political opinions, aren't making their doctors and in house coroners fudge the numbers considering that'd hurt EVERYONE from both sides of the aisle. This is the fastest spreading pandemic the world has ever seen. It's not getting the body count of Swine Flu, the Spanish Flu, or the Bubonic Plague, but this virus spreads a ton faster. Its body count may never hit those numbers, but the infected count, by the time this dies down in the next couple of years, is easily going to be in the ballpark of half a billion, which trumps the other plagues by a wide margin. And hell, take Swine out of the picture, if this disease hit 60+ years ago? The death count would be astronomical because of the lack of medical advancement. Again, and you know I love you, but I can deal with the "conservatives are being persecuted politically at every turn" even if I don't agree. But damn, this is a whole different situation and not the time to pull that card. Had Boris Johnson died, as it looked like he was going to, would you consider that a fudged example because he's second only to Trump in terms of who's the most well known in nationalism popularity? Again. I love ya. But not every single thing that happens is because of kickbacks to harm the powers that be, in this case conservatives that just so happen to have their penultimate leader up for reelection this year. Coincidences do occur, ya know. Some of them are positive, but some are negative too. EDIT: And for the record, I know you didn't bring up politics directly, but the fudged numbers idea has become a battle cry for Republicans this election. We all know that. It has nothing to do with Republican/Democrat and it wasnt mentioned at all. This is a virus that we havent seen before. IF its true this stuff was running through China in November and we see how fast its spreading, there's no way in hell that the first death from this wasnt until Feb. There's no doubts in my mind there's been hundreds possibly thousands of misdiagnosis of this. And if you dont think hospitals will fudge numbers to pad their pockets you're crazy. The medical industry is one of the biggest scams this country has ever seen. If you ever spent a lengthy time in the hospital (and I hope you never do) ask for a break down of all your charges. Im still wondering why I paid $48 for a desk fan that cost $10 at Walmart or $30 something for a box of sugar free popsicles while I was in ICU. Furthermore, I find it funny that people keep saying "lets not bring politics into this thread...." then begin to bash & complain about Republican. For people not wanting to bring politics into it...yall sure like to bring politics into everything.
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Apr 16, 2020 0:08:20 GMT -5
We're never going to know exact numbers of deaths/recoveries. There's no doubt in my mind that people were dying from COVID19 and doctors were misdiagnosing it as the flu. In turn I have no doubts that doctors/hospital personnel would take the death of said person from cancer and mark it as a COVID death because somewhere there's a kickback either money or supplies wise. The same can be said for recoveries....Simply put, an accurate number for something like this will forever and always be a true mystery. I'm not sure it qualifies for "true mystery." The numbers are more than accurate enough to represent how cataclysmic this is.
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Post by bad guy™ on Apr 16, 2020 0:31:12 GMT -5
Look, I'm all for your "everyone against the Republicans" conspiracy theories, but forgive me if I want to believe that hospitals, who may have political opinions, aren't making their doctors and in house coroners fudge the numbers considering that'd hurt EVERYONE from both sides of the aisle. This is the fastest spreading pandemic the world has ever seen. It's not getting the body count of Swine Flu, the Spanish Flu, or the Bubonic Plague, but this virus spreads a ton faster. Its body count may never hit those numbers, but the infected count, by the time this dies down in the next couple of years, is easily going to be in the ballpark of half a billion, which trumps the other plagues by a wide margin. And hell, take Swine out of the picture, if this disease hit 60+ years ago? The death count would be astronomical because of the lack of medical advancement. Again, and you know I love you, but I can deal with the "conservatives are being persecuted politically at every turn" even if I don't agree. But damn, this is a whole different situation and not the time to pull that card. Had Boris Johnson died, as it looked like he was going to, would you consider that a fudged example because he's second only to Trump in terms of who's the most well known in nationalism popularity? Again. I love ya. But not every single thing that happens is because of kickbacks to harm the powers that be, in this case conservatives that just so happen to have their penultimate leader up for reelection this year. Coincidences do occur, ya know. Some of them are positive, but some are negative too. EDIT: And for the record, I know you didn't bring up politics directly, but the fudged numbers idea has become a battle cry for Republicans this election. We all know that. It has nothing to do with Republican/Democrat and it wasnt mentioned at all. This is a virus that we havent seen before. IF its true this stuff was running through China in November and we see how fast its spreading, there's no way in hell that the first death from this wasnt until Feb. There's no doubts in my mind there's been hundreds possibly thousands of misdiagnosis of this. And if you dont think hospitals will fudge numbers to pad their pockets you're crazy. The medical industry is one of the biggest scams this country has ever seen. If you ever spent a lengthy time in the hospital (and I hope you never do) ask for a break down of all your charges. Im still wondering why I paid $48 for a desk fan that cost $10 at Walmart or $30 something for a box of sugar free popsicles while I was in ICU. Furthermore, I find it funny that people keep saying "lets not bring politics into this thread...." then begin to bash & complain about Republican. For people not wanting to bring politics into it...yall sure like to bring politics into everything. The only reason I did was because I wanted clarification of your point. I even put in the edit that the main reason I wanted to have you break it down is because all of the talk about "the virus isn't that bad" or ¥these numbers are being inflated to make it seem worse when the flu is worse" and that the prolonged lockdowns "is a ploy to keep the economy hurting since that's the main big selling point the President has had going from the start." What I said there is certainly in relation to your post even without the political aspect. But you know as well as I do, there are a LOT of people who believe that anything and everything that's either been caused by the virus or the virus has had an effect on is just a ploy to weaken the conservative leadership both here and abroad, and that it's just one big conspiracy, and this has become the battle cry of the conservative movement in places like the US and the UK. Hell, on February 28th, Trump came right out and said that the Coronavirus was a Democratic hoax while downplaying the severity leadership had been told about, and has had to backpedal consistently. That's gotten a lot of people sick, and killed, because there's a segment of the population worldwide (not you Niv, but you know who I'm referencing, and this also relates to Johnson in the UK, the Ayatolah in Iran, and Moon in Korea) take the words of the nationalist sleaders as literal Gospel. North Carolina, North Dakota, Florida, Ohio. Internationally, London, Sussex, Seoul, Pyongchang, Tehran, Mashad, among others have been some of the heaviest hit areas in the world that aren't international hub cities where diseases spread because the locales are petri dishes like New York, LA, Chicago, Manchester, Rome, Dubai, Tokyo. It's just that a scary precedent has been put into place, and people who believe everything their political leaders tell them are feeling some of the worst effects because of conspiracy theories and distrust of the opposition parties. The virus is deadly, but the only thing that can come close to it in terms of danger would be purposeful misdirection (Ayatolah, Moon) and/or initial nonchalance (Trump/Johnson). Sadly, politics is a somewhat necessary discussion to have relating to the virus. The virus has been politicized in every nation, for better or worse, from the moment it spread beyond China's borders.
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Post by bWo on Apr 16, 2020 6:14:33 GMT -5
Numbers like that would definitely suggest that the recovery rate is higher. Those people were tested for one reason or another and were found to have covid even though it wasn't affecting them. Those "positive tests" and "recoveries" are counted. Had they not been tested they would have recovered never knowing they had it, and those "positive tests" and "recoveries" wouldn't have been counted. If those asymptomatic numbers are accurate, imagine how many people had it, didn't get tested because they had no reason to think they should, and then recovered. Those missing "infected" and "recovered" numbers would go a long way when looking at accurate mortality rates, especially if we're talking about numbers like 50 to 80% of people feeling no effects. That has the potential to drastically change the numbers. That's part of what had made this outbreak so rapid. It's effects are erratic, and that mechanism isn't well-understood at this point. Asymptomatic people can, and most certainly are, shedding the virus to other individuals. They're setting the stage for more outbreaks. The more resistant the population is to social distancing, the greater the number of needless deaths will be. link Of course. People with no symptoms are the most likely the ones the spread things because nobody around them would be as worried about keeping their distance as they would if they saw someone coughing and wheezing. That's human nature. But it looks like they would be "spreading" the virus to (according to those asymptomatic numbers) a majority of people who would be unaffected. You can call the deaths pointless if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the asymptomatic numbers lower that mortality rate by a lot.
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Post by bWo on Apr 16, 2020 6:21:29 GMT -5
Look, I'm all for your "everyone against the Republicans" conspiracy theories, but forgive me if I want to believe that hospitals, who may have political opinions, aren't making their doctors and in house coroners fudge the numbers considering that'd hurt EVERYONE from both sides of the aisle. This is the fastest spreading pandemic the world has ever seen. It's not getting the body count of Swine Flu, the Spanish Flu, or the Bubonic Plague, but this virus spreads a ton faster. Its body count may never hit those numbers, but the infected count, by the time this dies down in the next couple of years, is easily going to be in the ballpark of half a billion, which trumps the other plagues by a wide margin. And hell, take Swine out of the picture, if this disease hit 60+ years ago? The death count would be astronomical because of the lack of medical advancement. Again, and you know I love you, but I can deal with the "conservatives are being persecuted politically at every turn" even if I don't agree. But damn, this is a whole different situation and not the time to pull that card. Had Boris Johnson died, as it looked like he was going to, would you consider that a fudged example because he's second only to Trump in terms of who's the most well known in nationalism popularity? Again. I love ya. But not every single thing that happens is because of kickbacks to harm the powers that be, in this case conservatives that just so happen to have their penultimate leader up for reelection this year. Coincidences do occur, ya know. Some of them are positive, but some are negative too. EDIT: And for the record, I know you didn't bring up politics directly, but the fudged numbers idea has become a battle cry for Republicans this election. We all know that. It has nothing to do with Republican/Democrat and it wasnt mentioned at all. This is a virus that we havent seen before. IF its true this stuff was running through China in November and we see how fast its spreading, there's no way in hell that the first death from this wasnt until Feb. There's no doubts in my mind there's been hundreds possibly thousands of misdiagnosis of this. And if you dont think hospitals will fudge numbers to pad their pockets you're crazy. The medical industry is one of the biggest scams this country has ever seen. If you ever spent a lengthy time in the hospital (and I hope you never do) ask for a break down of all your charges. Im still wondering why I paid $48 for a desk fan that cost $10 at Walmart or $30 something for a box of sugar free popsicles while I was in ICU. Furthermore, I find it funny that people keep saying "lets not bring politics into this thread...." then begin to bash & complain about Republican. For people not wanting to bring politics into it...yall sure like to bring politics into everything. Aids has killed tens of millions of people through the years even though it's usually one of the issues that come with the virus that finish people off. Bacterial pneumonia is usually the final dagger in aids patients. Their deaths are ultimately blamed on AIDS, not pneumonia. If someone in a hospital whittling away for years because of cancer dies from covid, they were killed by cancer, not covid.
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Post by vampiroporvida on Apr 16, 2020 9:59:08 GMT -5
bWoThat BMJ asymptomatic study is interesting, but might I say absolutely dangerous unless it can be proven before being put out into the main populus media. Look at the protest in Michigan to be let out of lockdown. This is a bolster for the argument. BUT, if it is wrong, by any margin, it could be many many more deaths. It is suggesting we may have herd immunity in a mass populus and restrictions can just vanish soon. I want this to be true, but until it can be proven here in the states, and in others countries, I hope restrictions stay around for the sake of the elderly. They are wise, and we only know a fraction of what those generations know, as current millenials. I wish the media was much more thoughtful about the dangerous of what they "inform" on. Now they are saying stuff in the media like there could be a meat shortage because so many plant workers are sick here in the U.S. Words have consequences. See toilet paper for example... I think a ton of folks are going to have something akin to PTSD when this is all said and done. I know I am on the verge of being catatonic, daily. And trust of each other may go out the window with it. What will we have left? I hope everything will be ok, and I am just scared for nothing, but only time will tell. VPV
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Post by kennyw86v2 on Apr 16, 2020 13:58:29 GMT -5
The media is so dangerous.
Facebook has shown me a good portion of non americans believe everywhere in the country is just like NYC.
Between 7-10 days ago it was reported, I honestly forget the source but it was reputable ( as much so as anything regarding this) my state is only using 27% of the ventilators they have. Everywhere is NOT in utter crisis.
This is not an attempt to lessen the severity of anything, just please, dont use NYC as a measuring stick for places that arent overpopulated, public transit dependent hell.
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Post by Grumpyoldman on Apr 16, 2020 14:20:21 GMT -5
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Apr 16, 2020 15:37:54 GMT -5
I'd be especially afraid if I had a loved one in a nursing home right now. Facilities like that are a powder keg if only one carrier exposes a resident or staff person.
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Post by k5 on Apr 16, 2020 16:12:30 GMT -5
a friend of mine works in a nursing home and there was a small outbreak at it. needless to say, pure chaos.
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Post by Nick the Quick on Apr 16, 2020 18:40:02 GMT -5
The point of crap hitting the fan is coming soon. Shutdowns can’t last long term.
Los Angeles is saying it’s likely large gatherings such as sports and concerts won’t happen until 2021, that already puts WrestleMania 37 in jeopardy. A year without sports will be crippling and some may not last I’m sorry to say, to make that type of prediction is somewhat extreme.
A Harvard study says social distancing measures may need to be in place up to 75% of the time through 2022 without treatments or a vaccine. Very extreme and not economically sustainable.
I’ll use Pennsylvania as an example. We have the fifth or sixth highest case amount in the country. A bill was passed by state congress to reopen the economy. It will be vetoed by Governor Tom Wolf, but it brings into perspective that we can’t live like this forever. The state’s unemployment trust fund may run out of money in about 11 weeks. I heard rumblings of possible protests like the ones that happened in a few other states yesterday. That’s a scary thought. It’s too soon to reopen, but it’s almost too late to save small business.
I know this post may make it look like I’m putting the economy over health and safety of people, but I’m not. I’m just looking at the other side. Safety and economy are both important and at some point within the next month or so, a middle ground point needs to be found. Problem is, nobody knows what that the point can be.
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Post by GBGav on Apr 16, 2020 18:52:14 GMT -5
The point of crap hitting the fan is coming soon. Shutdowns can’t last long term. Los Angeles is saying it’s likely large gatherings such as sports and concerts won’t happen until 2021, that already puts WrestleMania 37 in jeopardy. A year without sports will be crippling and some may not last I’m sorry to say, to make that type of prediction is somewhat extreme. A Harvard study says social distancing measures may need to be in place up to 75% of the time through 2022 without treatments or a vaccine. Very extreme and not economically sustainable. I’ll use Pennsylvania as an example. We have the fifth or sixth highest case amount in the country. A bill was passed by state congress to reopen the economy. It will be vetoed by Governor Tom Wolf, but it brings into perspective that we can’t live like this forever. The state’s unemployment trust fund may run out of money in about 11 weeks. I heard rumblings of possible protests like the ones that happened in a few other states yesterday. That’s a scary thought. It’s too soon to reopen, but it’s almost too late to save small business. I know this post may make it look like I’m putting the economy over health and safety of people, but I’m not. I’m just looking at the other side. Safety and economy are both important and at some point within the next month or so, a middle ground point needs to be found. Problem is, nobody knows what that the point can be. The longer it goes on, the less that people will care about the vulnerable. Right now it's easy to stay indoors in order to help the health services treat those people. But eventually we're going to be getting poorer financially, losing jobs and missing things like sports. And then suddenly we'll have the mindset that a few thousand extra deaths amongst the elderly will be worth it to stop the world going to hell. But it's not worth losing our humanity over. These are unprecedented times in the modern era so it's hard to imagine these things happening. But they could. Too many people cannot handle 2 weeks of lockdown, let alone 2 years.
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Post by Nivro™ on Apr 16, 2020 18:58:55 GMT -5
The media is so dangerous. Facebook has shown me a good portion of non americans believe everywhere in the country is just like NYC. Between 7-10 days ago it was reported, I honestly forget the source but it was reputable ( as much so as anything regarding this) my state is only using 27% of the ventilators they have. Everywhere is NOT in utter crisis. This is not an attempt to lessen the severity of anything, just please, dont use NYC as a measuring stick for places that arent overpopulated, public transit dependent hell. NY is bad....real bad. But that's where people HAVE to hold the media responsible and they dont. They're not reporting Topeka, KS, Nashville, TN, Lubbock, TX or anything...they focus on the most serious cases and monger to the masses. Outside of the social distancing, my personal every day life has hardly changed a bit. However like you said, ask someone who can only listen to the main stream media they likely think Im dying in the hospital and "suffering on the front line" because of what happens 16hrs away from me.
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Post by kennyw86v2 on Apr 16, 2020 19:24:27 GMT -5
The point of crap hitting the fan is coming soon. Shutdowns can’t last long term. Los Angeles is saying it’s likely large gatherings such as sports and concerts won’t happen until 2021, that already puts WrestleMania 37 in jeopardy. A year without sports will be crippling and some may not last I’m sorry to say, to make that type of prediction is somewhat extreme. A Harvard study says social distancing measures may need to be in place up to 75% of the time through 2022 without treatments or a vaccine. Very extreme and not economically sustainable. I’ll use Pennsylvania as an example. We have the fifth or sixth highest case amount in the country. A bill was passed by state congress to reopen the economy. It will be vetoed by Governor Tom Wolf, but it brings into perspective that we can’t live like this forever. The state’s unemployment trust fund may run out of money in about 11 weeks. I heard rumblings of possible protests like the ones that happened in a few other states yesterday. That’s a scary thought. It’s too soon to reopen, but it’s almost too late to save small business. I know this post may make it look like I’m putting the economy over health and safety of people, but I’m not. I’m just looking at the other side. Safety and economy are both important and at some point within the next month or so, a middle ground point needs to be found. Problem is, nobody knows what that the point can be. Without the economy, NOBODY will be safe. Said since day 1, people are acting ok now because there is a little money out there and everyone will accept a little time off work if they can get it. Fast forward 3 months. 6 months. A year. Feelings will change drastically. We arent there yet, but make or break time isnt that far away.
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Post by bad guy™ on Apr 16, 2020 19:26:41 GMT -5
The point of crap hitting the fan is coming soon. Shutdowns can’t last long term. Los Angeles is saying it’s likely large gatherings such as sports and concerts won’t happen until 2021, that already puts WrestleMania 37 in jeopardy. A year without sports will be crippling and some may not last I’m sorry to say, to make that type of prediction is somewhat extreme. A Harvard study says social distancing measures may need to be in place up to 75% of the time through 2022 without treatments or a vaccine. Very extreme and not economically sustainable. I’ll use Pennsylvania as an example. We have the fifth or sixth highest case amount in the country. A bill was passed by state congress to reopen the economy. It will be vetoed by Governor Tom Wolf, but it brings into perspective that we can’t live like this forever. The state’s unemployment trust fund may run out of money in about 11 weeks. I heard rumblings of possible protests like the ones that happened in a few other states yesterday. That’s a scary thought. It’s too soon to reopen, but it’s almost too late to save small business. I know this post may make it look like I’m putting the economy over health and safety of people, but I’m not. I’m just looking at the other side. Safety and economy are both important and at some point within the next month or so, a middle ground point needs to be found. Problem is, nobody knows what that the point can be. Hell man, you and I live in the same city. Allegheny County is a mess as a whole. Especially considering Fitzgerald and Peduto are at such odds. Rich wants to reopen basically fully like the President, or at least with limitations like Wolf has proposed. Peduto is following the lead of Cuomo and deBlasio because while our little city we share is not nearly as bad as NYC, our numbers are astronomical for the smallest big city in the area. You know it's bad when UPMC, AGH, and West Penn are cometely overloaded when they have, like, 12 different hospitals in their systems, plus the new hundred bed one in Brentwood, and even consider St. Claire's...theyre completely overloaded and can't admit even cardiac patients because their rooms are filled from the ICU to the main floors with other patients, covid related or not. And that's not even taking into account for how ed the ERs have been. And that's, again, not taking into account the issues at Children's, Western Psych, Aspinwall and the VA hospital. We are NOT ready to open Allegheny County. And looking at the situations in Beaver, Erie, Scranton, Philly, State College, and now the outbreaks that are starting in Lancaster and Gettysburg...the state as a whole isn't ready despite what Wolf, and Trump, and Fitzgerald say. Yes, I agree that something needs to be done. Some businesses need to be allowed to reopen on special conditions. But the biggest problem is that for some odd reason, no one is following the no gathering, wear masks rules from the White House and Wolf. I legit saw someone today at the Giant Eagle in McKeesport get arrested by the local authorities because she refused to wear any PPE and apparently threatened to spit on an employee and the cop. My neighbor has been going out every day with no mask and going to the store, and/or going to Wilmerding for...uhh...meet ups where money is exchanged for you know what. And when I texted her last night (she'd texted to thank me because I made a boo-boo on Amazon and ordered too much Ginger Ale so I gave her some) I asked her why she was going out all the time and not just once a week for groceries. "This virus isn't real. The government is making these numbers up just to scare people and have total authority over us and become commies." Meanwhile I've lost two friends, our ages, to this ing virus, and she's living at home with an 80 yeR old mum with a ton of health problems. And lives in the apartment next to me where I'm staying with my 70 year old mum who's got a ton of issues to begin with, and is now undergoing chemo for cancer they found while she was in the nursing home as some of you may know from my "what made you happy" post in that thread that she'd finally come home after three months in a nursing home because she tore all the crap in her knee and broke bones in the process. So as long as Darwinism hasn't started showing up yet and prove its ing point, this crap won't end.
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Post by rkmo: 9 Month Warning on Apr 16, 2020 20:24:02 GMT -5
News organizations can do a better job with coverage of this, along with everything else. Having heat maps to show where the worst-affected areas instead of shading an entire state would do wonders, for one. But holding them solely accountable for society's ignorance, shortsightedness, and selfishness is a scapegoat tactic. They aren't responsible for people to absorb news reports with a sound, rational mind and they can't force people to act in the best interests of others outside their personal lives. Of course there won't be a homogeneous spread across the the entire country at the same time. Of course the chances are more likely largely populated areas with high rates of person-to-person interactions will be hit way harder by a highly contagious illness than rural Podunkville, USA. Of course young, healthy individuals aren't as susceptible to serious health problems than the elderly or those with underlying conditions. Anyone should be able to deduce that for themselves and I've already seen that info said multiple times a day for weeks. Does the national media have to broadcast the obvious every single night, that one's particular area might not, and likely will not, ever resemble the situations in NYC? That refrigeration trucks and local ice rinks may not have to be utilized to hold runovers from morgues?
Worst of all, these criticisms embolden those included in the news/media spectrum who've sown seeds of distrust for decades for their own financial gains. Gaining millions of followers by telling them whatever they want to hear and touting, "Everyone else is lying to you; we're the only ones telling you the truth," while their own focus on fame and fortune are just as prevalent as anyone else's and their standards for journalistic integrity are way lower, if not nonexistent, as a result. And that cajoling to the less-educated is the real source for reckless and dangerous behaviors, such as storming State Capitols to show "solidarity" against precautionary measures that are meant to protect themselves, their family, their friends, and the emergency personnel who are pleading for the populace to honor the measures.
And out of transparency, I get the news from CNN and NBC lol
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