TheXtremisT
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This is the way
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 19, 2020 17:54:05 GMT -5
After watching episodes of Raw in 1997 for the first time in my life, I have been noticing things with today's wisdom that I can reflect on with a critical brain. One being how Owen Hart was wasted upon returning for revenge against HBK after he screwed Bret at Survivor Series 1997. Now, granted, WWF stayed the original trajectory and kept the title program of HBK vs Undertaker and then Stone Cold. Meaning Owen would find it hard to fit in there. But he returned at In Your House: D-Generation X and was RED HOT. The fans were solidly behind him and wanted to see him kick HBK and Triple H's asses. But it fizzled out by January 1998 and they basically ridiculed him to the point he did not seem a credible threat. After watching it back, I can sum up three things: - Owen was on fire and the crowd were solidly behind him - DX basically mocked him to no end (even after the "nugget" promo, which he overcame initially), and his momentum was lost pretty fast because after 2 weeks, they didn't make him out to be a credible threat, making him slip down the ranks and feud with HHH (logical, since HBK was preoccupied with his Taker and Austin feuds). - Owen just could not convey the intensity or passion he needed to act like DX's kryptonite or a badass SOB. His promos were a little cartoony - "Triple H: I'm going to kick your butt!". His facial expressions were silly (gritting his teeth). His conviction in his promos was just not there. So all in all, there was potential. But between DX constantly ripping him and his lack of credibility (due to himself being more family-friendly and management not being behind him fully), he just slipped down the card and the lustre wore off. I seriously think he could have been a top guy with his Black Hart gimmick, playing off the "breaking bones", and maybe having more of an edge and actually keeping up the mean streak rather than trying to convince us he had one (and then not proving it). But it just seemed not to be his calling. It's a shame because I do believe he was capable, but it wasn't meant to be. Anybody else have any suggestions how it could have worked out?  |
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Post by The Brain on Sept 19, 2020 18:13:51 GMT -5
This promo here with Vince had me really interested in his new black hart character.Shame they didnt do more with it.
It wouldve been great if he beat HBK for the belt 2 weeks later.He wouldn't have a long run with it but man just to say he was World Champ one time.
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Warriah'
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Joined on: Dec 22, 2019 19:46:02 GMT -5
Posts: 3,261
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Post by Warriah' on Sept 20, 2020 5:49:18 GMT -5
There's an interesting Cornette video on the subject. Apparently Vince wanted to push Owen pretty hard but sadly Shawn had no interest in working with Owen or putting him over as a credible threat.
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Post by JokerFC on Sept 20, 2020 7:54:15 GMT -5
Owen was in a tricky spot.The Taker & Austin programmes were locked in solidly. So that left HBK unavailable for revenge at his hands. He had the HHH programme but we all seen how that went....
I think had Vince any genuine plans for Owen? he wouldnt have made him look like an absolute clown against HHH. I mean look at his booking in the RR98 too....
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Post by K5 on Sept 20, 2020 9:04:15 GMT -5
it seemed like Chyna low blowed him allll the time
dude was buried for sure
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Post by hbkjason on Sept 20, 2020 9:15:22 GMT -5
I so wanted him to go to that next level, but as Joker said, the fact HBK was tied in with Undertaker and Austin really left him in the cold. It is a real shame too as I think he could have been pretty big. He needed that big revenge win over Shawn Michaels to cement him as a top guy, but there was no way he could have got it. I am not even saying that because I feel, Shawn Michaels would not have put him over (which to be fair, I am not sure he would have) it was just HBK was not available.
Perhaps they could have had him do his run in, beat up Shawn Michaels and then get "fired" or "suspended" and then come back after WrestleMania XIV and start a program with Shawn, but again that could hot have happened due to his back injury. Sadly, Owens rise to the next level needed Shawn Michaels to make it believable and there was just no way it could have happened.
Also, I am not sure Vince saw that in Owen, HHH and Chyna made him look like a bit of a bitch which kind of sucks to say lol.
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Post by jason88cubs on Sept 20, 2020 10:22:04 GMT -5
Once again Shawn has no respect for someone
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jason1980s
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Joined on: Sept 30, 2009 14:58:56 GMT -5
Posts: 2,335
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Post by jason1980s on Sept 20, 2020 12:51:21 GMT -5
Did Owen ever intend to leave post Screwjob but was denied or did he try being the loyal employee and stay? If he had considered staying I can see Vince holding it against him. If not, I can see Vince wanting to try something. HHH and Shawn were pretty disgusting back then. I hate seeing HHH in any position of power now but I won't go too far off topic...
I think the Austin injury is what hurt Owen the most. He had no business doing the piledriver even if it was technically an Undertaker move. He wasn't used to doing it, same goes for Austin in 1992 with Masa Chono. Austin WAS going to be the savior of WWF if he had not been already. If no Austin in late 1997, early 1998 WWF is absolutely screwed. Even Undertaker, Shawn or early heel Rock really weren't ready to take WWF to the next level like Austin was. Austin's physical career was never really the same.
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TheXtremisT
Main Eventer
10 Year Member
This is the way
Joined on: May 3, 2008 8:03:15 GMT -5
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 20, 2020 13:35:05 GMT -5
Did Owen ever intend to leave post Screwjob but was denied or did he try being the loyal employee and stay? If he had considered staying I can see Vince holding it against him. If not, I can see Vince wanting to try something. HHH and Shawn were pretty disgusting back then. I hate seeing HHH in any position of power now but I won't go too far off topic... I think the Austin injury is what hurt Owen the most. He had no business doing the piledriver even if it was technically an Undertaker move. He wasn't used to doing it, same goes for Austin in 1992 with Masa Chono. Austin WAS going to be the savior of WWF if he had not been already. If no Austin in late 1997, early 1998 WWF is absolutely screwed. Even Undertaker, Shawn or early heel Rock really weren't ready to take WWF to the next level like Austin was. Austin's physical career was never really the same. But it made absolutely no large enough difference that the WWF suffered for it, so don't make it out to be worse than it actually was. Austin's in ring roughneck style benefitted his character - no amount of more technical work would make any impact whatsoever, despite his skills beforehand. Even with Austin taking time out from August to November 1997 - the WWF didn't suffer. From Nov 1999 - Sep 2000, they didn't suffer. When Austin walked out in mid 2002 - they didn't suffer due to it. And his retirement in 2003 didn't greatly negatively impact them. What did and what started the downfall of the WWF creatively - was Austin's heel turn. Which had absolutely nothing to do with his injury. So all in all - what happened, happened. The WWF still went on to be a juggernaut and the injury didn't derail things at all. So it's pointless to shift the topic of this conversation onto Owen making an unfortunate mistake. |
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jason1980s
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Post by jason1980s on Sept 20, 2020 15:35:05 GMT -5
So all in all - what happened, happened. The WWF still went on to be a juggernaut and the injury didn't derail things at all. So it's pointless to shift the topic of this conversation onto Owen making an unfortunate mistake. I'm a huge Owen and Bret fan but the move should not have been done. Sure it didn't hurt Austin or his pocket book but maybe he would have liked to wrestle a lot longer than he has. With all the guys that "love this business" maybe he would want to have gone on for another decade wrestling or have a yearly wrestlemania match or royal rumble appearance like a lot of guys do. I'm sure he enjoys the random Raw beer toasts but maybe he might want to go physically in a match. Again neither Owen NOR Austin (to Chono) had any business doing the piledriver. I'm sure Owen was broken hearted about it and couldn't bring himself to speak to Austin and I absolutely hate how Owen died but he shouldn't have done a move he wasn't used to doing and that is dangerous. It speaks to Austin's courage to even come back. A lesser person would have and could have said screw it and not come back. And WWF may be out of business just like WCW. Foley, Undertaker, Michaels, Owen, HHH, New Age Outlaws, Rocky and no one else was a savior to the company like Austin was. |
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Post by MKSavage on Sept 20, 2020 16:51:26 GMT -5
I really think, because of the situation, that Owen should have had some PPV matches with HBK. I think he should have faced HBK at the December IYH, maybe have HHH and Chyna interfere so HBK keeps the title and faces Taker at the Rumble and then Owen moves on to a feud with HHH. I would have had him and Austin face HBK and HHH at some point, even if they do a storyline that Austin and Owen still hate each other but they hate DX more, kind of the old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing. Shame they buried him. I also think Owen should have kept the pink and black, kind of like keeping the old guards colors as a protest to what happened at the Survivor Series.
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Post by cordless2016 on Sept 20, 2020 17:52:03 GMT -5
You’re right that the main event scene was pretty packed with HBK, Austin, and Taker. So, logically the next best thing is for Owen to go after HHH and Chyna.
The problem is that he was never promoted as a credible threat. He was treated as a joke from the get-go and lost at WM14 when logical booking says that he should have won. Vince never seemed to want to push Owen as a credible main event threat post 1994, and after Bret was gone, nobody was there to prevent him from being booked as a joke.
I think Owen could have absolutely played a great tweener as a thorn in the side of DX. The problem was that his booking didn’t allow for that.
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Post by The Brain on Sept 20, 2020 20:39:45 GMT -5
It also did him no favors at Rumble 98 when he chased HHH up the aisle after being eliminated with him tripping in the process.Plus you got King laughing about it on commentary.
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TheXtremisT
Main Eventer
10 Year Member
This is the way
Joined on: May 3, 2008 8:03:15 GMT -5
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 21, 2020 2:45:25 GMT -5
You’re right that the main event scene was pretty packed with HBK, Austin, and Taker. So, logically the next best thing is for Owen to go after HHH and Chyna. The problem is that he was never promoted as a credible threat. He was treated as a joke from the get-go and lost at WM14 when logical booking says that he should have won. Vince never seemed to want to push Owen as a credible main event threat post 1994, and after Bret was gone, nobody was there to prevent him from being booked as a joke. I think Owen could have absolutely played a great tweener as a thorn in the side of DX. The problem was that his booking didn’t allow for that. That's literally my stance, and along with DX taking the living p*** out of him constantly - he was just made to be a little ankle biter rather than an attack dog. Unfortunately, we all know that if Vince wanted Owen to go over at WM14 - HHH and HBK would have kicked up a major fuss and threatened to not do the job. Vince placated to them too often to go back this one time. |
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Post by hbkjason on Sept 21, 2020 3:29:24 GMT -5
You’re right that the main event scene was pretty packed with HBK, Austin, and Taker. So, logically the next best thing is for Owen to go after HHH and Chyna. The problem is that he was never promoted as a credible threat. He was treated as a joke from the get-go and lost at WM14 when logical booking says that he should have won. Vince never seemed to want to push Owen as a credible main event threat post 1994, and after Bret was gone, nobody was there to prevent him from being booked as a joke. I think Owen could have absolutely played a great tweener as a thorn in the side of DX. The problem was that his booking didn’t allow for that. That's literally my stance, and along with DX taking the living p*** out of him constantly - he was just made to be a little ankle biter rather than an attack dog. Unfortunately, we all know that if Vince wanted Owen to go over at WM14 - HHH and HBK would have kicked up a major fuss and threatened to not do the job. Vince placated to them too often to go back this one time. Playing devils advocate here, HHH really had to go over Owen at WrestleMania, Shawn was losing and HHH needed to be the strong new leader of DX so they could not have him lose as well. It was a really tough situation for Owen to be honest. I love Shawn Michaels and HHH, but I am not blind to the bullcrapthat they pulled from 96-98. However, in this case I have always felt that Owen was more a victim of bad circumstances than he was someone having it in for him. |
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TheXtremisT
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This is the way
Joined on: May 3, 2008 8:03:15 GMT -5
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 21, 2020 8:12:38 GMT -5
That's literally my stance, and along with DX taking the living p*** out of him constantly - he was just made to be a little ankle biter rather than an attack dog. Unfortunately, we all know that if Vince wanted Owen to go over at WM14 - HHH and HBK would have kicked up a major fuss and threatened to not do the job. Vince placated to them too often to go back this one time. Playing devils advocate here, HHH really had to go over Owen at WrestleMania, Shawn was losing and HHH needed to be the strong new leader of DX so they could not have him lose as well. It was a really tough situation for Owen to be honest. I love Shawn Michaels and HHH, but I am not blind to the bullcrap that they pulled from 96-98. However, in this case I have always felt that Owen was more a victim of bad circumstances than he was someone having it in for him. Absolutely, 100%. HHH SHOULD have gone over and looked strong for the new era, and yes for Owen it was just unfortunate. But we all know that in wrestling - you don't s*** on the guy leading up to the match and then make him lose. Otherwise that constitutes: 1. going into business for oneself and making the other guy look really bad, 2. A burial, or 3. ruins the other guys' reputation and possibly career. And we basically saw all 3, if not 2 of these. Shawn and Trips' relentless pursuit of ridiculing Owen and making him look bad meant Owen losing basically derailed his character and then he had no edge left. They didn't even have to not be DX. When HBK feuded with Austin or Taker, they were still up to their same DX antics, but they still sold for both men and made them look like threats. For Owen, they basically buried him and ruined any chance of him being taken as a top guy. All the momentum for him coming back in December with a vendetta and new gimmick, were lost because of this. And it was a shame. Owen losing was not the problem. Owen being in the right place at the wrong time, was a bigger issue, but they still could have protected him. |
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Post by JokerFC on Sept 22, 2020 4:50:56 GMT -5
I really think, because of the situation, that Owen should have had some PPV matches with HBK. I think he should have faced HBK at the December IYH, maybe have HHH and Chyna interfere so HBK keeps the title and faces Taker at the Rumble and then Owen moves on to a feud with HHH. I would have had him and Austin face HBK and HHH at some point, even if they do a storyline that Austin and Owen still hate each other but they hate DX more, kind of the old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing. Shame they buried him. I also think Owen should have kept the pink and black, kind of like keeping the old guards colors as a protest to what happened at the Survivor Series. Yes IYH:DX was the place for this if it was going to happen...no doubt about it. |
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Post by The Brain on Sept 22, 2020 5:13:48 GMT -5
Yeah we shouldve got HBK/Owen for the belt at the DX event.Have Shamrock face Trips instead of Sarge.
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Post by JokerFC on Sept 22, 2020 5:44:30 GMT -5
Just going back on an earlier point here? Yes...HHH 100% had to win the European title programme with Owen. McMahons plans for DX expansion were concrete since before the RR. Now that Vince was armed with the knowledge that HBK was going to have to take time off? HHH was going to be the leader of the new DX.
If he had lost at WM14 the whole angle of the next night on Raws interview would have been very different.
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Post by MKSavage on Sept 22, 2020 10:44:07 GMT -5
Yeah we shouldve got HBK/Owen for the belt at the DX event. Have Shamrock face Trips instead of Sarge.Yep, Sarge could have been the guest referee to keep that feud going. They always could have had that Sarge vs HHH match on a RAW. |
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