Mclovin
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Post by Mclovin on Jan 4, 2021 19:40:43 GMT -5
AEW's roster is big in quantity. But I personally don't think that they have enough big impressive guys on their roster to hook casuals. Casual fans like big wrestlers. The big guys of the roster are Lance Archer, Dustin Rhodes, Wardlow, Dark Order's 10, Luchasaurus, Will Hobbs, and I'm sure there are a few more. Then you have guys like Brian Cage who are big mofos and incredibly strong but not very tall. Then you have someone like Angelico who is tall but thin. There (and this is my opinion don't chew my fricking head off) not enough big and tall dudes. This is even more apparent on AEW Dark where half of the guys you see on there aren't tall enough to get Tinder matches. I think this is a problem all throughout wrestling not just AEW. Too many small flippy dudes not enough big men slapping meat as Big E would say. AEW has been around for two years have you seen a single wrestler they have over 6'8"? Like sign Cody Hall or sum sheet. If AEW wants casuals to watch they better either put the belt on a big guy or get more big guys. Also every AEW wrestler needs to sit in a room and listen to Eddie Kingston and Jon Moxley cut promos.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2021 19:53:28 GMT -5
Lol for the love of all that's good do not ever sign Cody Hall. That dude is a walking train wreck. I don't care if you have zero big and tall dudes, stay far away from Cody freaking Hall . Ok, that said... You lose all points for not embracing the amazing pun of AEW having a "BIG" problem Ok, fine I'll be serious. I think the quantity of guys you just listed is fine for how many big guys you need. Cage is like 6'0, which is plenty tall enough for how freaking wide that dude is. If Preston counts, then Butcher and Miro probably both count too. (I know you said you may have forgot some, I'm going somewhere with the exact #). That would make 9/64ish, which I think is a fine ratio for the big mother ers. That still leaves some guys like Anthony Bowens who are by any reasonably standard large ass dudes. Moxley isn't the most jacked guy in the world but he's like 6'4. Billy Gunn is also still cut like a greek god at 57! Ultimately though you're never going to get the wrestlers from the 80's again, because those guys were all gassed up to the 9's, and the culture regarding that has changed. Obviously Cage has used himself as a human pin cushion and will be on T replacements for the rest of his life, and there are some other guys definitely sauced up (*cough, Billy Gunn *Cough) , but overall it's not like the 80's breakfast of champions crushing Winnies in your fruit loops for the entire roster.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2021 20:04:23 GMT -5
Sorry I should add, this was definitely something I remember coming up a LOT in AEW's infancy. Dustin and Luchasaurus were the only two on our lists that were there from the beginning, everyone else got added. There was 100% a story of "gee, we need some more hoss guys in this promotion", and then they went and got Archer, Brodie, Cage, Hobbs, etc. So it is something that 100% came up in the past.
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Mclovin
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This Forum's Resident Future WWE Champion, Not Changing This Until It Happens.
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Post by Mclovin on Jan 4, 2021 20:05:59 GMT -5
Lol for the love of all that's good do not ever sign Cody Hall. That dude is a walking train wreck. I don't care if you have zero big and tall dudes, stay far away from Cody freaking Hall . Ok, that said... You lose all points for not embracing the amazing pun of AEW having a "BIG" problem Ok, fine I'll be serious. I think the quantity of guys you just listed is fine for how many big guys you need. Cage is like 6'0, which is plenty tall enough for how freaking wide that dude is. If Preston counts, then Butcher and Miro probably both count too. (I know you said you may have forgot some, I'm going somewhere with the exact #). That would make 9/64ish, which I think is a fine ratio for the big mother ers. That still leaves some guys like Anthony Bowens who are by any reasonably standard large ass dudes. Moxley isn't the most jacked guy in the world but he's like 6'4. Billy Gunn is also still cut like a greek god at 57! Ultimately though you're never going to get the wrestlers from the 80's again, because those guys were all gassed up to the 9's, and the culture regarding that has changed. Obviously Cage has used himself as a human pin cushion and will be on T replacements for the rest of his life, and there are some other guys definitely sauced up (*cough, Billy Gunn *Cough) , but overall it's not like the 80's breakfast of champions crushing Winnies in your fruit loops for the entire roster. Thanks for listing the people I forgot. I didn't want people to be like EH WHAT ABOUT SO AND SO I just decided to leave it open for discussion. I don't want 80's wrestling to return. To me height is more important than muscle mass. I think someone like Angelico who's tall and thin could be a top guy. Billy Gunn is a ing tank. Butcher and Miro are big brutes which I love to see in wrestling. Bowens is a big dude The Acclaimed are the future. Like I said I don't want 80's wrestling to return. I just want the average wrestler to be taller. I hate seeing guys on AEW Dark in particular. Alot of them guys are indie guys who without AEW would be indie for life. Small and talented guys shouldn't be the norm because that devalues that style. If every wrestler was built like Randy Orton wrestling would be more popular. Size matters. Johnny Ace was onto something with the height requirement.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2021 20:06:34 GMT -5
They have plenty of talented big guys. Putting a title on them won’t matter as much. Drew McIntyre is a big dude and doesn’t draw crapfor ratings lol
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Mclovin
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Post by Mclovin on Jan 4, 2021 20:11:26 GMT -5
Sorry I should add, this was definitely something I remember coming up a LOT in AEW's infancy. Dustin and Luchasaurus were the only two on our lists that were there from the beginning, everyone else got added. There was 100% a story of "gee, we need some more hoss guys in this promotion", and then they went and got Archer, Brodie, Cage, Hobbs, etc. So it is something that 100% came up in the past. I still think it's a problem. But I think too many small guys is worse than not enough big guys. There's a reason these smaller guys wouldn't ever get out of the indies if it weren't for AEW. Now I don't wanna outright diss anyone or burn any bridges when I say this, this is just me trying to convey what I believe casual fans want to see. I think this is a problem in WWE too on a much smaller scale (pun intended). I think instead of trying to find big wrestlers, make big wrestlers. Use the old formula of NFL players. Not everyone needs to be doing technical or high flying classics. Too many wrestlers nowadays try and have 5 Star matches to the point where it devalues the concept. Also another thing, AEW's TV matches are too long. There's no reason a TV match that isn't the main event should ever go past 10-15 minutes.
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Mclovin
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This Forum's Resident Future WWE Champion, Not Changing This Until It Happens.
Joined on: Nov 12, 2018 4:12:19 GMT -5
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Post by Mclovin on Jan 4, 2021 20:13:04 GMT -5
They have plenty of talented big guys. Putting a title on them won’t matter as much. Drew McIntyre is a big dude and doesn’t draw crap for ratings lol Naw forget TV ratings it's 2021 not 2001 or even 2011. TV ratings only matter to networks now. Drew McIntyre would have been a huge ticket draw if his entire main event run wasn't during the era of the covidiots.
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Mclovin
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This Forum's Resident Future WWE Champion, Not Changing This Until It Happens.
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Post by Mclovin on Jan 4, 2021 20:17:02 GMT -5
Also I want to reiterate that I am in no way dissing any wrestler in particular as it is in no way their faults. I'm kinda dissing AEW for this but it needs to be said. They have a good amount of big guys who aren't treated as the stars they could be. They either need more big guys to impress people channel surfing or they need to book their current big guys better. I think putting the AEW World Championship on someone like Lance Archer and having him be a dominate heel champ for a few months would give them more viewers. I'm not concerned with ratings but I want more casual or even lapsed wrestling fans to enjoy AEW because it's a great product and could be even better.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2021 20:17:43 GMT -5
They have plenty of talented big guys. Putting a title on them won’t matter as much. Drew McIntyre is a big dude and doesn’t draw crap for ratings lol Naw forget TV ratings it's 2021 not 2001 or even 2011. TV ratings only matter to networks now. Drew McIntyre would have been a huge ticket draw if his entire main event run wasn't during the era of the covidiots. I do think he would have a better year with a crowd, but they make him so corny sometimes that idk. His recent stuff has been solid though
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2021 20:48:50 GMT -5
So there's a few things that have been said here that I want to touch on.
"catch the channel-surfing guys". Honestly, I'm just not convinced those are the people you should be targeting. The "channel surfing" crowd, is always going to channel surf and hop from channel to channel. Catch them one week they're gone the next. Wrestling is trying to create more actual fans that will stick around long term. That requires solid booking, storytelling, exciting matches etc. Capitalizing on good lead ins can be huge there, as well as (and I hate saying this) buzz from getting guys like Shaq, Snoop Dogg, etc endorsing things. Networks need consistent ratings, not random buzz ratings that don't last.
2nd, this is a small thing, but TV ratings still matter. AEW still exists because they landed a huge new network contract because of their ratings. They'd have died during Covid without that new TV contract. Ratings matter to networks and that's where wrestling is making it's money, from the networks. It's a little off topic but it's gotta be said.
The ultimate reality is it's very difficult to say what's going to draw in new viewers because no one is accomplishing it. AEW managed to pick up a lot of lapsed fans, and fans that migrated along with the Elite, but they haven't really introduced anybody new to wrestling. WWE just keeps slowly bleeding out its audience, but isn't doing a ton in terms of building a new audience either. The average age of a WWE viewer is like 50 or something like that. AEW is a little better at early 40'. If I'm being perfectly honest, I think size is not going to be the thing that attracts new viewers at all. I think the priority for wrestling is continuing to find younger viewers, and I think AEW (and WWE) have started to tap into that idea with the video game connections. The sell of wrestler to younger viewers imo is a real life video game. High flying, 5 star wrestling screams video game more than two big meaty men slapping meat to me at least. I could be wrong, but no one knows what's right until it happens.
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Post by stc13 on Jan 4, 2021 20:59:10 GMT -5
I was a big proponent that AEW needed to beef up their roster early on. But I think they have, and it's added a lot of depth to the product. Look at the flip side. Billy Gunn is a very large man - who looked decidedly average when surrounded by a ton of even larger men in the 90's.
Who out there that is available fills that "big guy" role? There just aren't a lot of guys out there like that that I'm aware of in the indies. Even Wardlow was a deep cut signing when they brought him in. There was a time where every city had a Gramma B's, and the predominant style was slow and simple enough that with a little training you could take 6 meatheads and turn them into a draw (or the greatest tag team of all time). But that's not the business today. Look at how many decent big men there are across all of wrestling. And there's a reason why guys like Kane and Big Show can still command a big paycheck any time they step into the ring.
The last 30 years are full of big guys who got into the business, couldn't work, and never drew a dime. I think WWE's style is still geared toward big men, and big men who work a certain way. That's why I don't think Keith Lee will ever be as big as he could in WWE, because he doesn't work Vince's "big man style." But the WWE has been bringing in big, athletic, beefy ex-linemen for years, and the only ones who panned out in recent history that I can think of are Baron Corbin and Big E.
Should they be looking at scouting and signing bigger guys without experience and developing them? Probably some day, but their developmental just isn't that advanced yet. And even then, you're talking about elite athletic talent who can fit in with the faster paced style they work. It's one in a million, not something you can fill a roster of. The alternative is working a slower style more like the WWE, and if that's the case - then you're really are WWE lite.
So I guess my point is - sure, I'm sure TK, Vince, Court Bauer, Scott D'Amore, and everyone else would love to have more big guys who can work great. But they just don't grow on trees, which is why when they do tend to come along, they end up being world champs and HoF'ers. For the talent available to them, AEW has grabbed every big man who has come on the market except for Killer Kross. And time will tell whether that's one that is even worth losing sleep over.
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Post by stc13 on Jan 4, 2021 21:11:20 GMT -5
If I'm being perfectly honest, I think size is not going to be the thing that attracts new viewers at all. I think the priority for wrestling is continuing to find younger viewers, and I think AEW (and WWE) have started to tap into that idea with the video game connections. The sell of wrestler to younger viewers imo is a real life video game. High flying, 5 star wrestling screams video game more than two big meaty men slapping meat to me at least. I could be wrong, but no one knows what's right until it happens. Paul Heyman said something to the effect that audiences will accept whatever you condition them to accept. And I think he's spot on. WWE has always been the land of the giants, going back to Vince Sr. WWF was pushing guys like Superstar, Bruno, and Ivan Putski that were built like gods, while other territories were drawing full houses with Verne Gagne or Mr Wrestling 2, who could have passed for your high school gym teacher. And obviously Vince has always loved the bodybuilder types and massive guys. That's not to say they weren't over, because they were in spades. But from when WWF went national to the last 20 years where many considered them the only "big league" game in town, pretty much any wrestling fan from 5-50 is familiar with the WWE's presentation. It's not going to happen over night. But let's let AEW build their audience and brand over a few years and see where their audience goes. For what it's worth, I've read that Paul E wanted to build ECW around smaller flyers like Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko, Rey, Juvi, etc circa 95-96. When WCW signed up all those guys to become their cruiserweight division, he had to keep building around the hardcore type guys who were less likely to get signed away. And TNA had an opportunity to build around the X-Division guys (Daniels, AJ, Joe, etc) and instead went with the ex-WWE "big guys."
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Post by K5 on Jan 4, 2021 22:44:36 GMT -5
it's more a case of balance than anything. the work rate revolution happened 18 years ago in ROH and was the culmination of the 'push it to the limit' style we now see in AEW. Heyman has stated early ROH would've been similar to where ECW was going, and considering Gabe was Paul's right hand man that's not too far out to believe.
WWE resisted this work rate revolution and doubled down on home developed talents that were more to their liking. this came to a boil with CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, who broke the gates down and now we have the majority of wwe's roster former indie talent.
but now we have a product (AEW) that is everything that indie wrestling excelled in and is trying to develop that niche interest into a mainstream one instead of following what's been done by Vince and co.
I don't think sizeable athletes are denied entry - they just have to be able to 'go' and the reality is most larger guys can't at the pace AEW's product is. so maybe it isn't for those who want to see 'might is right' on display.
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Post by Lorenzo Alcazar on Jan 5, 2021 6:47:42 GMT -5
There's no such thing as channel surfing anymore. This is not 1990 where you legit need to click through every channel to find something. I'd be shocked if anybody actually sat there and clicked and viewed every channel.
People use the guide and they look for a show that way by reading what is on....if you don't like wrestling, you aren't even going to bother clicking on something that says "All Elite Wrestling", so having a big guy on or not isn't going to matter because only wrestling fans are going to go to it anyway.
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Post by Yambag Jones on Jan 5, 2021 11:34:17 GMT -5
I'd rather have a smaller guy who can work than a Baron Corbin type who's big but can't do anything. Mox, Brodie, and Nyla are the biggest people to have won their respective titles in the company. If you're watching the product, they're pretty blatantly telling you just because someone is larger and stronger, they're not a better WRESTLER.
I'm not against them bringing in more big guys, but this current roster has enough big men on it to tell the stories they want to tell.
Also, if AEW were around the last several years they'd for sure have some of the larger guys the WWE have signed. Imagine Keith Lee with this roster...
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Mclovin
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This Forum's Resident Future WWE Champion, Not Changing This Until It Happens.
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Post by Mclovin on Jan 5, 2021 15:55:53 GMT -5
There's no such thing as channel surfing anymore. This is not 1990 where you legit need to click through every channel to find something. I'd be shocked if anybody actually sat there and clicked and viewed every channel. People use the guide and they look for a show that way by reading what is on....if you don't like wrestling, you aren't even going to bother clicking on something that says "All Elite Wrestling", so having a big guy on or not isn't going to matter because only wrestling fans are going to go to it anyway. The modern day equivalent of channel surfing is scrolling though your YouTube recommendations or scrolling through HULU.
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wheeljack83
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Post by wheeljack83 on Jan 8, 2021 0:04:32 GMT -5
They briefly brought in Jeff Cobb, but I don't think Jeff Cobb wanted to be tied down to a US TV contract at the time. After hearing Cobb I think on Jericho's podcast, it sounds like Cobb likes to have a flexible schedule where he can wrestle overseas in Japan and then take some time off and have a break when he needs it.
Look, there are only so many quality big men out there. I think Alex Hammerstone is great, but he's signed to MLW. MLW also signed Calvin Tankman and Logan Creed, who I also think are good prospects.
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Post by Yambag Jones on Jan 8, 2021 14:20:16 GMT -5
He’s signed to Impact, but I’d be really interested to see what Jake Something could do in AEW.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 1:06:33 GMT -5
He’s signed to Impact, but I’d be really interested to see what Jake Something could do in AEW. He could be really good. The deaners have been relatively minor (but entertaining) characters in impact, but I've thoroughly enjoyed watching independent Jake something matches.
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Post by Yambag Jones on Jan 9, 2021 11:07:33 GMT -5
He’s signed to Impact, but I’d be really interested to see what Jake Something could do in AEW. He could be really good. The deaners have been relatively minor (but entertaining) characters in impact, but I've thoroughly enjoyed watching independent Jake something matches. He's dominant in AAW and I think that gives a peek into how great he could be on a larger stage.
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