omegaman88
Superstar
Joined on: Nov 11, 2019 17:04:10 GMT -5
Posts: 536
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Post by omegaman88 on Aug 8, 2022 23:32:52 GMT -5
So I've spent the last 6 years following ROH/NJPW and now AEW. I've been totally tuned out of WWE in that time.
The creative changes have peaked my interest and I've been watching since last Monday night, but I have a few questions.
Why are natural babyfaces/heels seemingly miscast? Bayley as a heel feels incredibly unnatural. She's completely competent, and clearly it's working alright, but why would anyone want to see clearcut babyfaces as heels? Like Zayn turns in a good heel performance, but is that really what he's best suited for?
Is Roman Reign's a good wrestler? I mean like relative to John Cena's in ring performances before him, does he deliver the same level of match quality consistently?
My biggest question, is who are these shows booked for? Something like Judgement Day feels incredibly contrived, and hokey to me. Just doesn't feel natural, their motivations aren't believable. A lot of promos on these shows feel like they are read off of a teleprompter. Is some of it for the kiddos?
Not trying to come across as condescending at all, AEW has plenty of goofy crap, it's just goofy crap that is clearly aimed at a specific demographic of men/fans. Trying to understand WWE's product better, so I can digest it better.
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Post by kennyw86v2 on Aug 9, 2022 11:53:51 GMT -5
Bayley had the same exact face character for years and nobody cared anymore. Her heel work has been the best work of her career possibly, at least since her nxt run.
Roman is decent enough in the ring. Just like nost of the other "it" guys have been through the years.
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Post by tylerbreezee on Aug 9, 2022 12:21:07 GMT -5
Bayley as a heel carried the pandemic era and she’s so much better at it than being a face.
Roman is good, his matches since being Universal Champion have all be top notch. He’s not a technical master like Daniel Bryan but he knows how to tell a story in the ring which is important and a lot of guys today don’t know how to properly do so
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Post by McBlake on Aug 9, 2022 12:34:44 GMT -5
I know people are getting tired of Reigns as champion, but go back and watch his defences before he went part time.
The 2 matches with Jey Uso are absolute masterclass in storytelling. I'd also recommend his matches with Owens at TLC, the triple threat at Mania, the Smackdown match against Bryan, his matches with Cesaro and Edge from last year and although not everyone was a fan, his match with Rollins at the Rumble this year I though was incredible. Was criminal that they never followed up after the perfectly worked DQ finish.
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Post by Sizzle on Aug 9, 2022 12:44:54 GMT -5
Zayn and Bayley being heels is far from them being miscast. If anything it's a compliment to their abilities as performers that they were able to go from being typecast as white meat baby faces for years into some of their best work in their careers as heels. Bayley's run during 2020 with Sasha was some of the most fun she's ever been and has a lot higher of a ceiling than the cheery inflatable tube Bayley that existed in the years prior. As for Zayn, his heel run as a conspiracy theorist has allowed him to be much more than just the good match having helluva kick baby face. He's gotten multiple title runs out of it and has arguably been his best on the mic since he morphed into this character.
Reigns is a great wrestler. I'm sure you could find this out yourself by going back and watching some of his matches from this run as the Tribal Chief as well as a lot of his earlier stuff. As was mentioned by someone prior, he's not some technical mastermind but he's one of those guys that tells a great story with his work and that's really the selling point with him. He's definitely elite in that regard.
These shows are made for families. While there are often parts of the shows targeted at "smart" fans like you and I, a lot of the show is meant for a family to enjoy it. It's not going to try and sell you with bloody matches and middle fingers, instead mostly focusing on simple heel and face dynamics and often cheesy storylines. This isn't anything new and going of the timeline you set on when you stopped you watching, you probably saw some of this in the early 2010s and before.
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omegaman88
Superstar
Joined on: Nov 11, 2019 17:04:10 GMT -5
Posts: 536
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Post by omegaman88 on Aug 9, 2022 14:30:58 GMT -5
Bayley as a heel carried the pandemic era and she’s so much better at it than being a face. Roman is good, his matches since being Universal Champion have all be top notch. He’s not a technical master like Daniel Bryan but he knows how to tell a story in the ring which is important and a lot of guys today don’t know how to properly do so I wasn't comparing him to a Danielson, or Bret Hart. My natural comparison for him is Cena, which I think is fair? I just feel like Cena did a lot more out there? Maybe not always in terms of different moves, but spots and pacing. Cena typically had finisher fest matches, gimmick matches, and the guy worked smaller opponents on their terms. Remember him giving CM Punk a frankensteiner?
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Post by sonstuds on Aug 9, 2022 15:37:54 GMT -5
Back in '18 I was on the "Becky and Sami are such naturally great babyfaces they shouldn't turn them" train. Then they turned heel and Becky became the most over act in wrestling and 4 years later Sami is still crushing it on a weekly basis.
I'mma take the L on that one lol
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Post by CM Poor on Aug 9, 2022 15:50:50 GMT -5
Bayley has a ton more range to get out of her heel run than the trajectory of her work as a babyface was affording her. I'm a huge Bayley fan, going back to NXT, but that character, in of itself, had a ceiling, and she'd reached it a long time ago. Bayley was easily one of the Thunderdome-Era MVPs, and I don't think her heel run (or Sami's, for that matter) are miscast at all. Personally, I think locking someone into what seems "natural" is a hindrance to their potential as a performer. Some of them hit it out of the park, and some of them falter. I don't think Bayley or Sami have begun to falter.
Roman is one of my favorite things in wrestling right now. When he's on, I stop and pay attention. I think his matches since turning heel and going on his massive dominant run have been must see across the board. I think there are varying degrees of strength in the ring, and Roman's is shining insanely brightly right now with the focus on his ability as an in-ring storyteller.
WWE knows what it is - a family product that needs to keep adults engaged to pay the kids' way into the shows/merch/etc. Everything else is gravy for them.
Best thing I ever did was cut myself short when I realized I was trying to treat any brand of wrestling as some sort of high bar beacon of intellectual entertainment. It's a form of entertainment that has its deepest roots in the exploitation of human gullibility and the suspension of disbelief. It's not high brow theatre. Shut off the ole brain space for a couple of hours, settle in, and enjoy the ride for what it is.
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Post by HandsomeHollywood on Aug 10, 2022 10:06:11 GMT -5
Bayley and Sami are so good at both heel and babyface that it doesn't really matter which role they're playing, as they are both well suited to both.
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Post by Irish Wrestling Entertainment on Aug 10, 2022 20:41:37 GMT -5
Sami Zayn’s current gimmick of being a fanboy/lackey for the Bloodline has a lot of potential no matter which direction they want to take it - I.e Sami actually proving useful to the Bloodline & joining them before trying to take them down from within or being humiliated/mocked by the Bloodline and eventually snapping to take them out. The latter would be particularly effective if the Usos still had the tag belts and Sami found a partner to get his comeuppance.
I like long build wrestling storylines; always have. The worry in modern WWE is that they scrap a storyline or simply forget about it but I’m hoping that will change in the HHH era.
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Post by FLUX '97 on Aug 13, 2022 16:41:37 GMT -5
Bayley is a heel because she's really goddamn good at it, and Bayley as a babyface sucked. Sami Zayn is a heel because he's really goddamn good at it.
Roman Reigns in his current Tribal Chief persona is an absolute masterclass of in-ring storytelling. If you go out of your way to watch anything he's done the past six years, watch Roman's matches from 2020 onward with the likes of Jey Uso (Especially their Hell in a Cell match), Bryan Danielson, Seth Rollins and the SummerSlam Last Man Standing with Lesnar. They're all incredible matches to watch from a perspective of an emotional storytelling match.
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Post by shanieomaniac on Aug 16, 2022 2:49:14 GMT -5
Sami Zayn’s current gimmick of being a fanboy/lackey for the Bloodline has a lot of potential no matter which direction they want to take it - I.e Sami actually proving useful to the Bloodline & joining them before trying to take them down from within or being humiliated/mocked by the Bloodline and eventually snapping to take them out. The latter would be particularly effective if the Usos still had the tag belts and Sami found a partner to get his comeuppance.I like long build wrestling storylines; always have. The worry in modern WWE is that they scrap a storyline or simply forget about it but I’m hoping that will change in the HHH era. *gestures to what happened tonight on RAW, what happened back in May, and various bits and pieces that have been sprinkled over the past year* I really really hope someone has explained to Triple H that you can have a plotline fully telegraphed for months ahead of time and it still be extremely satisfying because at this point, if tonight's promo, what happened back and May and everything else doesn't have the ultimate payoff of Sami and Kevin reuniting to take down the Usos, then everyone involved in planting and watering the seeds for the past year are going to look very silly. Primarily Kevin himself. If all of his little asides and potentially off-script remarks/actions leading back to Day 1 come to nothing then it will be a missed opportunity to say the least. Personally I think that the Usos have run out of challengers and that there's nobody else left. RKBro is off the table because of Randy, all other extant challengers in the company have been stomped or aren't convincing, and any other potential reunited threats are split between companies. At least with Roman, you can have someone like Cody come back whenever and be considered a threat. Drew doesn't seem like the one who will take the belts but there are still options. The Tag Belts - not so much. That said, the problem with Sami and Kevin reuniting for the tag belts is that it would likely bring back the old Steenerico vibe of them being tag partners of different alignments. Sami turning on the Usos after all their abuse is gonna get the fans behind him again but Kevin is back to being the Prizefighter Killer Heel again. I mean, they've made it work in the past and have won titles as such, but I see it as not being a particularly WWE Friendly arrangement. That said, the fans tonight seemed so overjoyed to see the old Kevin back that it just might work. Finally, no more Mr. Panda Man, we got Mr. Wrestling back instead. Who knows. Maybe Sami will team up with Drew after Drew loses to Roman. Good word would that be awkward though. If the Usos end up losing the tag belts to a frankenteam, it would be the worst decision Hunter has made so far.
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Post by Next Man’s Knowing Rock on Aug 16, 2022 6:51:43 GMT -5
Bayley and Sami Zayn aren’t miscast. Zayn has been doing the best work of his career over the last couple of years. Bayley’s comeback with the new group of not-quite-TV-ready NXT gals is a bit stilted, but might find its feet. Bayley is a natural in the obnoxious heel role though.
Judgment Day is a mess. Whatever vision Edge or McMahon originally had for it got screwed up, and the group is struggling to find its identity.
No, Roman Reigns isn’t better than prime John Cena and likely never will be, those are impossible shoes to fill.
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Post by jershocenationyes on Aug 25, 2022 2:09:55 GMT -5
Haven’t watched in years feel like I haven’t missed anything but I try to keep up with the highlights.
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Post by Nivro™ on Aug 25, 2022 22:26:24 GMT -5
Bayley has a ton more range to get out of her heel run than the trajectory of her work as a babyface was affording her. I'm a huge Bayley fan, going back to NXT, but that character, in of itself, had a ceiling, and she'd reached it a long time ago. Bayley was easily one of the Thunderdome-Era MVPs, and I don't think her heel run (or Sami's, for that matter) are miscast at all. Personally, I think locking someone into what seems "natural" is a hindrance to their potential as a performer. Some of them hit it out of the park, and some of them falter. I don't think Bayley or Sami have begun to falter. Roman is one of my favorite things in wrestling right now. When he's on, I stop and pay attention. I think his matches since turning heel and going on his massive dominant run have been must see across the board. I think there are varying degrees of strength in the ring, and Roman's is shining insanely brightly right now with the focus on his ability as an in-ring storyteller. WWE knows what it is - a family product that needs to keep adults engaged to pay the kids' way into the shows/merch/etc. Everything else is gravy for them. Best thing I ever did was cut myself short when I realized I was trying to treat any brand of wrestling as some sort of high bar beacon of intellectual entertainment. It's a form of entertainment that has its deepest roots in the exploitation of human gullibility and the suspension of disbelief. It's not high brow theatre. Shut off the ole brain space for a couple of hours, settle in, and enjoy the ride for what it is.but but what about Work rate?!?!? (well said. Should be the foreword in a book)
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Post by tmnt316 on Aug 29, 2022 3:47:28 GMT -5
Bayley has a ton more range to get out of her heel run than the trajectory of her work as a babyface was affording her. I'm a huge Bayley fan, going back to NXT, but that character, in of itself, had a ceiling, and she'd reached it a long time ago. Bayley was easily one of the Thunderdome-Era MVPs, and I don't think her heel run (or Sami's, for that matter) are miscast at all. Personally, I think locking someone into what seems "natural" is a hindrance to their potential as a performer. Some of them hit it out of the park, and some of them falter. I don't think Bayley or Sami have begun to falter. Roman is one of my favorite things in wrestling right now. When he's on, I stop and pay attention. I think his matches since turning heel and going on his massive dominant run have been must see across the board. I think there are varying degrees of strength in the ring, and Roman's is shining insanely brightly right now with the focus on his ability as an in-ring storyteller. WWE knows what it is - a family product that needs to keep adults engaged to pay the kids' way into the shows/merch/etc. Everything else is gravy for them. Best thing I ever did was cut myself short when I realized I was trying to treat any brand of wrestling as some sort of high bar beacon of intellectual entertainment. It's a form of entertainment that has its deepest roots in the exploitation of human gullibility and the suspension of disbelief. It's not high brow theatre. Shut off the ole brain space for a couple of hours, settle in, and enjoy the ride for what it is.but but what about Work rate?!?!? (well said. Should be the foreword in a book) No top guy throughout WWE history would ever be confused as men of a 1,000 holds. Hogan,Austin,Rock,Cena,Roman.
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Deleted
Joined on: Apr 26, 2024 6:11:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2022 11:01:39 GMT -5
but but what about Work rate?!?!? (well said. Should be the foreword in a book) No top guy throughout WWE history would ever be confused as men of a 1,000 holds. Hogan,Austin,Rock,Cena,Roman. A very certain WWE top guy just so happened to be the man of 1,001 holds! Including the Armbar
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Post by PJ on Aug 30, 2022 18:14:57 GMT -5
but but what about Work rate?!?!? (well said. Should be the foreword in a book) No top guy throughout WWE history would ever be confused as men of a 1,000 holds. Hogan,Austin,Rock,Cena,Roman. Backlund & Hart, come to mind.
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Post by tmnt316 on Aug 31, 2022 14:24:17 GMT -5
No top guy throughout WWE history would ever be confused as men of a 1,000 holds. Hogan,Austin,Rock,Cena,Roman. Backlund & Hart, come to mind. Yeah more so than the others listed.
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Post by Next Man’s Knowing Rock on Sept 4, 2022 6:17:52 GMT -5
Backlund & Hart, come to mind. Yeah more so than the others listed. Although neither of them are ever really remembered as The Guy. Bret was mostly a fallback whenever a more ambitious plan failed, and Backlund is almost like a forgotten champion. He held the title for years but it's like he's just a footnote between Bruno and Hogan. Never really hear stories about the Backlund era.
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