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Post by JokerFC on Sept 15, 2022 11:34:01 GMT -5
the thread about Rock & Austin and subsequent discussion got me thinking about this one. We were talking about when its prestige started to fade and how many holders it had over a short period of time....so here we are from 99 onwards.
99:
Shamrock
Venis
Road Dogg
Goldust
Godfather
Jarrett x3
Edge
Dlo
Chyna
Jericho
00:
Angle
Benoit x2
Jericho
Rikishi
Venis
Chyna
Eddie
Billy Gunn
good few folks there that shouldnt have held that IMHO....discuss. Some turnover for 2 years.
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Post by Nivro™ on Sept 15, 2022 11:44:09 GMT -5
99:
Shamrock
Venis
Road Dogg
Goldust
Godfather
Jarrett x3
Edge
Dlo
Chyna
Jericho
00:
Angle
Benoit x2
Jericho
Rikishi
Venis
Chyna
Eddie
Billy Gunn
The highlighted one are one I could have easily skipped at IC champion. I couldnt honestly tell you anything that they did in their reigns. I didnt even realize Goldust was IC Champ again in 99 until this post.
Oddly enough the prestige of the title faded for me as soon as they changed the design. I know some people will say "The design shouldnt determine the prestige of the title" but if they changed the World Cup Trophy to a sterling silver coffee cup sized trophy, would it still feel the same? When it comes to belts (and trophies) the only way something should change is if its a lateral move or an improvement.
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Post by CM Tusk on Sept 15, 2022 12:13:55 GMT -5
Billy should have held it in 99, not Road Dogg. D-Lo and Godfather are great and all but they should have held it in my opinion. I do however think Val Venis was a damn good champion, especially during his heel run against Rikishi. So yeah, Road Dogg/D-Lo/Godfather were the only champions that felt out of place in those two years. Even so, the belt still felt prestigious to me all the way up until they unified it briefly with the World title.
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Post by MKSavage on Sept 15, 2022 13:45:01 GMT -5
99: Shamrock Venis
Road Dogg
Goldust
GodfatherJarrett x3 Edge Dlo
Chyna Jericho 00: Angle Benoit x2 Jericho Rikishi Venis
ChynaEddie Billy Gunn
The highlighted one are one I could have easily skipped at IC champion. I couldnt honestly tell you anything that they did in their reigns. I didnt even realize Goldust was IC Champ again in 99 until this post. Oddly enough the prestige of the title faded for me as soon as they changed the design. I know some people will say "The design shouldnt determine the prestige of the title" but if they changed the World Cup Trophy to a sterling silver coffee cup sized trophy, would it still feel the same? When it comes to belts (and trophies) the only way something should change is if its a lateral move or an improvement. Excellent point. I kind of agree with you on the people who shouldn't have held the belt, everyone you highlighted shouldn't have had a run with the belt, they weren't top card material. The only ones I would change would be Edge and Rikishi shouldn't have had the belt in 99/00, respectively, neither were at that level in my opinion at that time. And Rikishi was mainly a comedic act. I also would say that Billy Gunn could have been champion, he was close, but not quite there, giving him the belt could have helped him get over. The only way most of those guys would have deserved the IC title would have been as a very short reign, to get it from one deserving champion to another - similar to how the Mountie got the belt in 1992, he took it from Bret to give to Piper. |
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Post by The Brain on Sept 15, 2022 14:10:13 GMT -5
I did enjoy the stuff Jericho/Benoit/Angle did with it in 00/01. During those reigns it did get back some of the prestige back following a terrible 99. But you cant beat the glory days of the 80s/early 90s.So many memorable champs/feuds... Hammer/Chico Savage/Steamboat Warrior/Rude Honky's run Perfect/Bret There were times I was more invested in the IC stuff than the World Title.And this shouldve always been the design. Perfection  |
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nibs92
Main Eventer
Joined on: May 29, 2008 5:47:21 GMT -5
Posts: 2,240
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Post by nibs92 on Sept 15, 2022 14:17:55 GMT -5
The IC title was custom made for the likes of Jericho, Benoit, Guererro, Angle, Edge etc. agree there is a lot on that list that shouldn’t be there. Especially with the European and Hardcore titles kicking about at the time, no excuse for the likes Godfather and Roaddogg getting runs.
With all the shenanigans that was happening in the WWF at the time, the IC division could have been a haven for those who prefer the in ring action.
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Warriah'
Main Eventer
Joined on: Dec 22, 2019 19:46:02 GMT -5
Posts: 3,150
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Post by Warriah' on Sept 16, 2022 16:35:13 GMT -5
99: Shamrock Venis
Road Dogg
Goldust
GodfatherJarrett x3 Edge Dlo
Chyna Jericho 00: Angle Benoit x2 Jericho Rikishi Venis
ChynaEddie Billy Gunn
The highlighted one are one I could have easily skipped at IC champion. I couldnt honestly tell you anything that they did in their reigns. I didnt even realize Goldust was IC Champ again in 99 until this post. Oddly enough the prestige of the title faded for me as soon as they changed the design. I know some people will say "The design shouldnt determine the prestige of the title" but if they changed the World Cup Trophy to a sterling silver coffee cup sized trophy, would it still feel the same? When it comes to belts (and trophies) the only way something should change is if its a lateral move or an improvement. Billy was definitely IC calibre. He just needed to hold it in 99 instead of 00. Russo really crap the bed swapping Billy into the hardcore division and giving Road Dogg the IC |
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Post by MKSavage on Sept 16, 2022 19:01:48 GMT -5
I did enjoy the stuff Jericho/Benoit/Angle did with it in 00/01. During those reigns it did get back some of the prestige back following a terrible 99. But you cant beat the glory days of the 80s/early 90s.So many memorable champs/feuds... Hammer/Chico Savage/Steamboat Warrior/Rude Honky's run Perfect/Bret There were times I was more invested in the IC stuff than the World Title. And this shouldve always been the design. PerfectionLike PB&J:  |
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Post by The Brain on Sept 16, 2022 19:05:46 GMT -5
I did enjoy the stuff Jericho/Benoit/Angle did with it in 00/01. During those reigns it did get back some of the prestige back following a terrible 99. But you cant beat the glory days of the 80s/early 90s.So many memorable champs/feuds... Hammer/Chico Savage/Steamboat Warrior/Rude Honky's run Perfect/Bret There were times I was more invested in the IC stuff than the World Title. And this shouldve always been the design. PerfectionLike PB&J:  |
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Sept 16, 2022 19:19:33 GMT -5
99: Shamrock Venis
Road Dogg
Goldust
GodfatherJarrett x3 Edge Dlo
Chyna Jericho 00: Angle Benoit x2 Jericho Rikishi Venis
ChynaEddie Billy Gunn
The highlighted one are one I could have easily skipped at IC champion. I couldnt honestly tell you anything that they did in their reigns. I didnt even realize Goldust was IC Champ again in 99 until this post. Oddly enough the prestige of the title faded for me as soon as they changed the design. I know some people will say "The design shouldnt determine the prestige of the title" but if they changed the World Cup Trophy to a sterling silver coffee cup sized trophy, would it still feel the same? When it comes to belts (and trophies) the only way something should change is if its a lateral move or an improvement. Why skip Chyna? It was a historic moment when she won the IC title and it was great to see a woman being tough enough to win a male title. I also liked D'lo becoming a Eurocontinental champion. As brief as it was it was cool. Billy Gunn was also a worthy IC champion. Agree with the others though. Also both the Oval and Classic IC titles were two of the most beautiful looking belts in WWE history so it's not as if it changed to a horrible looking design that destroyed the championship. Now the current design is so bad that I no longer care for the IC title. |
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Post by Nivro™ on Sept 16, 2022 20:13:00 GMT -5
The highlighted one are one I could have easily skipped at IC champion. I couldnt honestly tell you anything that they did in their reigns. I didnt even realize Goldust was IC Champ again in 99 until this post. Oddly enough the prestige of the title faded for me as soon as they changed the design. I know some people will say "The design shouldnt determine the prestige of the title" but if they changed the World Cup Trophy to a sterling silver coffee cup sized trophy, would it still feel the same? When it comes to belts (and trophies) the only way something should change is if its a lateral move or an improvement. Why skip Chyna? It was a historic moment when she won the IC title and it was great to see a woman being tough enough to win a male title. I also liked D'lo becoming a Eurocontinental champion. As brief as it was it was cool. Billy Gunn was also a worthy IC champion. Agree with the others though. Also both the Oval and Classic IC titles were two of the most beautiful looking belts in WWE history so it's not as if it changed to a horrible looking design that destroyed the championship. Now the current design is so bad that I no longer care for the IC title. Ive never been a fan of title wins that "devalue" other championships. While I respect Chyna for her size and ability a female winning the title devalues the Womens title IMO. Its as if at that point, why as a woman should you limit yourself to the womens division when you can compete for the IC or European title. I felt the same for when Rey Mysterio won the World Heavyweight Championship. At that point, what is the point of a cruiserweight title? A guy 5'4'' 160lbs can be "Heavyweight Champion"....there's no logical reason for a cruiserweight title at that point. The highlighted one are one I could have easily skipped at IC champion. I couldnt honestly tell you anything that they did in their reigns. I didnt even realize Goldust was IC Champ again in 99 until this post. Oddly enough the prestige of the title faded for me as soon as they changed the design. I know some people will say "The design shouldnt determine the prestige of the title" but if they changed the World Cup Trophy to a sterling silver coffee cup sized trophy, would it still feel the same? When it comes to belts (and trophies) the only way something should change is if its a lateral move or an improvement. Billy was definitely IC calibre. He just needed to hold it in 99 instead of 00. Russo really crap the bed swapping Billy into the hardcore division and giving Road Dogg the IC We'll just have to agree to disagree. When I look at the IC title I see it as the title for either A) The next big guy (Bret, Shawn, Rock, Austin etc) or B) The guy thats right at the cusp of being "the guy" but not having that little extra to be bigger than "the guy" (Rude, Perfect, Piper, Bulldog etc) To me Billy was neither the "next guy" or big enough to be close to being the next guy. He was a notch (or two) well below guys like Austin, Rock, Triple H or Kurt Angle. |
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ClassicFan2
Main Eventer
Joined on: Oct 22, 2010 15:25:00 GMT -5
Posts: 3,252
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Post by ClassicFan2 on Sept 17, 2022 17:03:45 GMT -5
loved the IC belt up until about 1996, with goldust being last guy i cared about having it
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TheXtremisT
Main Eventer
10 Year Member
This is the way
Joined on: May 3, 2008 8:03:15 GMT -5
Posts: 3,870
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Post by TheXtremisT on Sept 17, 2022 17:34:08 GMT -5
What makes the IC belt more prestigious, is not just whether the guys go on to bigger and better things, but what the holder AND chaser of the belt do for it.
Of those names you listed, the guys who elevated the belt all did the same one thing - they protected their hold on the belt.
And the guys who eventually won the belt, all did the same thing - they made it their mission to win it.
But when you look at guys in 1999 like The Godfather, Val Venis, Edge, Road Dogg, D'Lo Brown.... none of them demonstrated that. They just got given a title match and then won it. Then they held it for a short while, you forgot they were the champion, and then they lost it. Nothing gained, but a whole lot lost in that the title was minimalised.
EDIT: And those guys named never seemed phased they lost it nor did they really seem to want to win it back. So it's almost as if the belt meant nothing to them....
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Post by JokerFC on Sept 19, 2022 3:11:43 GMT -5
What makes the IC belt more prestigious, is not just whether the guys go on to bigger and better things, but what the holder AND chaser of the belt do for it. Of those names you listed, the guys who elevated the belt all did the same one thing - they protected their hold on the belt. And the guys who eventually won the belt, all did the same thing - they made it their mission to win it. But when you look at guys in 1999 like The Godfather, Val Venis, Edge, Road Dogg, D'Lo Brown.... none of them demonstrated that. They just got given a title match and then won it. Then they held it for a short while, you forgot they were the champion, and then they lost it. Nothing gained, but a whole lot lost in that the title was minimalised. EDIT: And those guys named never seemed phased they lost it nor did they really seem to want to win it back. So it's almost as if the belt meant nothing to them.... Great point.... |
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bige
Superstar
show ya macho man collections
Joined on: Apr 22, 2014 3:51:21 GMT -5
Posts: 555 
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Post by bige on Sept 19, 2022 3:46:23 GMT -5
Why skip Chyna? It was a historic moment when she won the IC title and it was great to see a woman being tough enough to win a male title. I also liked D'lo becoming a Eurocontinental champion. As brief as it was it was cool. Billy Gunn was also a worthy IC champion. Agree with the others though. Also both the Oval and Classic IC titles were two of the most beautiful looking belts in WWE history so it's not as if it changed to a horrible looking design that destroyed the championship. Now the current design is so bad that I no longer care for the IC title. Ive never been a fan of title wins that "devalue" other championships. While I respect Chyna for her size and ability a female winning the title devalues the Womens title IMO. Its as if at that point, why as a woman should you limit yourself to the womens division when you can compete for the IC or European title. I felt the same for when Rey Mysterio won the World Heavyweight Championship. At that point, what is the point of a cruiserweight title? A guy 5'4'' 160lbs can be "Heavyweight Champion"....there's no logical reason for a cruiserweight title at that point. Billy was definitely IC calibre. He just needed to hold it in 99 instead of 00. Russo really crap the bed swapping Billy into the hardcore division and giving Road Dogg the IC We'll just have to agree to disagree. When I look at the IC title I see it as the title for either A) The next big guy (Bret, Shawn, Rock, Austin etc) or B) The guy thats right at the cusp of being "the guy" but not having that little extra to be bigger than "the guy" (Rude, Perfect, Piper, Bulldog etc) To me Billy was neither the "next guy" or big enough to be close to being the next guy. He was a notch (or two) well below guys like Austin, Rock, Triple H or Kurt Angle. Same here when Rey won at wrestlemanina 22 after Eddie death unfortunately in my opinion it was pushed down i throats just a bit to much to I didn’t care but yes he earned it but at that stage and that situation no. |
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Post by hbkjason on Sept 19, 2022 3:47:01 GMT -5
The whole Jericho vs Angle vs Benoit was the last time that I really cared about the IC title. The stuff between the WrestleMania 2000 match and The Rock vs Triple H feud over the IC title, is something that I have pretty much all forgotten about. It was like once The Rock and Triple H moved on from the IC title it lost all its prestige. In the mid-00s when people like RVD and Shelton Benjamin were going for it, you usually got exciting matches over the belt, but you never really cared about title reigns or anything like that.
Also, I still think the trinity of the winged eagle, 80s to the 98 IC belt and tag team titles of the 80s and 90s are the best belt designs the WWF ever had, I freaking hate the modern title designs, they look tacky as hell. Like who looked at those tag titles with the gladiators on them or the 24/7 title and thought those looked good?
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Post by JokerFC on Sept 19, 2022 4:57:27 GMT -5
Interesting points about feuds and the IC title....that deffo died out in 99/2000.
Steamboat vs Savage
Warrior vs Rude
Perfect vs Von Erich/Bret/Bossman
Razor vs HBK/Diesel/Goldust
Austin vs Owen/Rock
Rock vs Shamrock/HHH
Probably missing a few but you get the gist
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Post by hbkjason on Sept 19, 2022 7:48:50 GMT -5
Interesting points about feuds and the IC title....that deffo died out in 99/2000. Steamboat vs Savage Warrior vs Rude Perfect vs Von Erich/Bret/Bossman Razor vs HBK/Diesel/Goldust Austin vs Owen/Rock Rock vs Shamrock/HHH Probably missing a few but you get the gist I forgot about Shamrock and Rock, that was a lot of fun, they worked great together. |
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Post by JokerFC on Sept 19, 2022 10:37:51 GMT -5
Interesting points about feuds and the IC title....that deffo died out in 99/2000. Steamboat vs Savage Warrior vs Rude Perfect vs Von Erich/Bret/Bossman Razor vs HBK/Diesel/Goldust Austin vs Owen/Rock Rock vs Shamrock/HHH Probably missing a few but you get the gist I forgot about Shamrock and Rock, that was a lot of fun, they worked great together. It was an innovative feud... |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Sept 19, 2022 11:45:24 GMT -5
The last great IC Title feuds from 98 - current times is very thin
Rock vs. Triple H in 1998
Benoit vs. Jericho in 2000
Edge vs. Orton in 2004
Jericho vs. Mysterio in 2009
It really comes down to the wrestler and the story line. But most times it seems the IC Title was used just as a belt to get a quick change on TV to shock the audience or you have reigns like Edge in 2001 where he didn't really have any long lasting feuds, but was winning and losing the IC Title to someone every 30 days for like a span of 5 months.
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