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Post by GreyHaze:Big Bad Booty Daddy on Nov 18, 2022 18:31:46 GMT -5
Bret Hart isn't a racist so that automatically makes him cooler than Road Dogg. Bret Hart is from Canada, which is cooler than Road Dogg.
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Post by Back to the Codyverse on Nov 21, 2022 17:42:35 GMT -5
Lol
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Nov 21, 2022 19:01:37 GMT -5
Well Bret Hart led a faction so I guess that makes him cooler than Road Dogg.
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saintegenevieve
Mid-Carder
Joined on: Sept 6, 2022 4:19:20 GMT -5
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Post by saintegenevieve on Nov 23, 2022 3:44:25 GMT -5
They're all pro wrestlers. If you mean "technical," that's a construct too. The delineation between what Bret Hart imagines himself to be died out by the mid-70s, so we're talking about the era of the Brisco's, Funk's, the Minnesota Wrecking Crew. Their style of work was distinct in the sense that their function was to convince the audience that what they were seeing was real, even if the rest was hokey. That style starts to die out with the fall of Florida and Georgia, the rise of Dusty Rhodes and Ric Flair, starting from arguably the Superstar Billy Graham period. I would suggest that you listen to how Ole Anderson views Flair, now seen as an all time great. His view of Flair was of him being a routine worker, taking the same bumps, doing the same spots, so Flair, by Ole, was incapable of selling out an arena to which a promotion toured monthly since everyone would be seeing the same match. Pre-1975 main event acts didn't work that way. They had ways to engage the audience for upward of 75 minutes. The transition point is never fixed but you start to see a gradual movement away from this approach from 1975-1980. Phenomenologically, I don't see Bret Hart as distinct from Ric Flair or the Ultimate Warrior. That's the Performance Era and what people paid to see was a routine performance. The last 15 years has been more of a Content Era where your value is just to produce filler television with kaboom spots and scripted promos. If Bret Hart was a "pro wrestler" or an old school worker on the order of Dory Funk Jr. - and I think Bret would love to think of himself as such and certainly his self-narrations point to this idea of himself - he was a really inferior worker to that class. His match with the Undertaker in 1996 was poorly received. He couldn't work a one hour Ironman match without thousands walking out. Compare that to Ole Anderson who could work a 75 minute match and sell out the Omni almost every month! Now, I don't blame Bret Hart for that strictly since you can't fight the winds of change. '70s films built up slowly and for a functional ending in ways that a drawn out style by the likes of Jack Brisco, Dory Funk, or Ole Anderson wasn't at odds with the cultural mores of the period. Think of it as neo-noir but for pro wrestling. (Bret Hart grew up wanting to study film, by the way, and given his age, he was probably a Hitchcock fan.) '80s films were feel-good, and though good, you always knew that the face had the win. On the other hand, the style that one does has to make sense to the audience. It's the same that I'll say about Ric Flair in 1991. He didn't get the New York audience and thus did not get over. The New York audience wants to see a menacing heel capable of putting the Red Rooster on a stretcher, then challenge Hogan. They don't want to see a main event heel take bumps for a jobber like El Matador for 8 minutes. It's bad optics when the Undertaker is killing Texas Tornado in 3 minutes. So yes, Bret Hart does deserve blame for not reading the audience. Had he added more fire to his character work and his comebacks, he might have been able to persuade the audience in a way that would have him draw money. But he didn't. You can't tell an audience what they want. No one wants to see Bret Hart work on the Undertaker's leg for 20 minutes. It's at odds with fan expectations Reading Bret's book again earlier this year made me re-think his career and legacy. He never really went many places or experienced much of the wrestling world. He worked for his Dad, then he worked for Vince. With a couple of short trips along the way, usually on the back of Dynamite. He wasn't the constant traveler of an NWA champion. He didn't carry multiple territories. He didn't have to win the respect of multiple bosses. Almost sheltered. He's still one of my childhood heroes and I think his work holds up. Miles better than Road Dogg. Part of Sports Entertainment is drama. Road Dogg couldn't do that. Bret could. What blows my mind is how smarks don't really make internal sense - none of that is directed at you. NO ONE was talking about Bret Hart as anything near the world's top worker in 1984, when he had years of experience, when he wrestled Tiger Mask. His work didn't even approach Cobra's. He was kind of a nobody lost in a sea of giants. He had 7 years of experience, working regularly with the Dynamite Kid, whom Hart describes as the best wrestler to have ever lived (that's insane but just my view), so he had plenty of time to shine against Tiger Mask unless he was sick Bret, to me, was not a great game-changer to WWF except in having his style as a main event guy that had marginal success. I never hated Hart but I stopped watching when he headlined for years, relegating WWF to '80s nostalgia, unless I heard that the Undertaker was involved in something different (Giant Gonzalez, Yokozuna, or his twin). Hart was only interesting insofar as McMahon made up a family myth that's so influential that even some wrestling historians think Stampede was a big territory when it was really a backwater. Though his background is anthropologically interesting on its face, I don't think McMahon would have concocted this myth without Hart's limitations. His family feuds gave him steam. His peaks and valleys came as his family did, with exception to Austin, and I think Austin got Bret Hart over, not the other way around. None of that is to rag on what you like. I'm just thinking of this topic as a historian who can apply what I know to wrestling. Hart had his fans. I have always loved the Disney aspect of WWF of wrestlers dressed like Roman gladiators. As such, I find someone like the Ultimate Warrior much more entertaining. It's all subjective. There's no right or wrong to taste. Road Dogg is kind of a loser, to be honest with you. He's a mediocre Memphis talent with a good voice and height who got over in a period when people wanted to see Howard Stern over anything substantive. The late '90s was a pretty dark period. I think more of the casuals wanted to watch Gillberg, the Oddities, Chyna, Sable, and Road Dogg than Ken Shamrock, Jeff Jarrett, and Big Boss Man. For no other reason were matches 4 minutes long. It made the show a coherent train wreck. When Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, and the Radicals all came within a 4 month period, people started to tune out, not because they were bad but because their style depended a greater attention span. Casuals didn't want to see that. That's a more radical view, but I think the Attitude Era's success depended on a pop culture moment when people wanted to see big stars on top in freak show matches juxtaposed with a popcorn undercard of skits and weird finishes. As such, I think the Attitude Era had three phases: 1995-97, 1998-2000, 2000-2001. Road Dogg was a beneficiary of the short attention span looking for something edgy. I honestly can't remember a single good match the Outlaws ever had outside of the dumpster match (and that smoke and mirrors too). He went singles at some point. No one cared In fairness, I don't think people should attack the messenger. Road Dogg is right or wrong on his own merits. I don't think he'd have a career without Memphis being subsidized by McMahon and the connections like Jarrett and Lawler who got him in. That's my suspicion. I can't prove that though
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saintegenevieve
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Joined on: Sept 6, 2022 4:19:20 GMT -5
Posts: 192
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Post by saintegenevieve on Nov 23, 2022 3:55:51 GMT -5
Reading Bret's book again earlier this year made me re-think his career and legacy. He never really went many places or experienced much of the wrestling world. He worked for his Dad, then he worked for Vince. With a couple of short trips along the way, usually on the back of Dynamite. He wasn't the constant traveler of an NWA champion. He didn't carry multiple territories. He didn't have to win the respect of multiple bosses. Almost sheltered. He's still one of my childhood heroes and I think his work holds up. Miles better than Road Dogg. Part of Sports Entertainment is drama. Road Dogg couldn't do that. Bret could. To be fair to Bret, his singles push didn't really start until after the territories we're mostly dead and buried. That is a fair point for sure. It's also fair to say that he was a vastly inferior '70s worker to the top dogs of the '70s. Some of that is owed to shifts in audience expectation, but I don't think it's just that. No one thought of Hart as a top-tier worker in 1984 when he went against Tiger Mask, despite having years of experience. The Japanese audience didn't see him as all that either. Dynamite Kid, Black Tiger I, and Cobra were all much better than him Hart got over because WWF marketed him as the best, used his family as foil to keep him over (until the feud ended, and Bret would die with them), and manufactured a quirky myth about his family, as if Stu Hart was a big star. He wasn't even if he was respected. What Hart did was be good enough of a wrestler to maintain the marketing façade, even if he wasn't the best around. That's a huge burden. He did fulfill his role. Guess what I'm saying is that he failed up. Like a lot of people like that, he's markedly bitter. People who failed up always are (weird paradox because they shouldn't be bitter) Bret Hart in WCW was exactly what Bret Hart really was without promotional backing. I'm sure many will disagree with my view. That's fine. I would heavily weigh out my take, however, that Bret was a boring guy with great but not elite wrestling skills, who couldn't get over in WCW without McMahon barking that he's the fighting champion, giving him feuds with people he came to age in wrestling with, slick video packages, a catchy theme song, and cool jackets. WCW did none of that. What you're left with is... Bret Hart. Vince McMahon might be the greatest worker of all time
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