HeelPiper
Superstar
Joined on: Nov 11, 2019 17:04:10 GMT -5
Posts: 667
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Post by HeelPiper on Jul 27, 2023 11:38:15 GMT -5
We all know that Bret was resigned to a lucraitve deal and ultimately Vince McMahon is said to have regretted said deal.
Does this not seem like BS to anybody else?
I'm watching through July 1997 right now and Bret has been on fire since March. He's at his absolute apex as an overall performer, and he's as over with the crowds as he's ever been. The crowds are white hot and almost every sign in the crowd references him either positively or negatively.
Why at this time would the WWF want to part ways? His drawing power is way up, and the WWF's international drawing power is benefiting as a result. Their television is highly compelling, there's just no reason to cut ties with their best heel, especially when a rematch with Austin beating him would be huge?
I'll always believe that Mcmahon simply chose Shawn Michael's after being given an ultimatum. Yes it sounds conspiratory, but tell me it doesn't add up?
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Jul 27, 2023 12:13:08 GMT -5
I always thought it was a work too.
From when Bret came back in late '96 to Wrestlemania 13 he kept saying he was getting "screwed by the WWF" almost like foreseeing the future in what was to come.
Bret said in his book that he was still signed with the WWF until mid December. Technically, Bret could have wrestled on the In Your House DX PPV. He wasn't allowed to make an appearance in a WCW ring until after that event, which is why it took so long for Bret to appear on WCW TV after the Montreal Screw Job in November.
I feel like if it was a real life shoot, Bret would have reacted a bit more harsh in the ring after HBK "won" the title. But hey, that's just me. I guess the beauty of that whole year of Bret being in the WWF is we really will never know the exact truth in what happened if it was a work or shoot.
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Post by hbkjason on Jul 27, 2023 12:19:54 GMT -5
I love HBK, but he wanted to stick it to Bret and no wrestler in history not even Hogan seems to have had a hold over Vince like HBK did. No way he was ever picking or siding with Bret.
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Deleted
Joined on: Nov 22, 2024 20:34:05 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2023 14:17:09 GMT -5
vince gave bret a contract he could not afford to keep him. then realized later he couldnt keep paying him that. other wrestlers heard about what bret got and were starting to want bigger pay as well. $$$ was the legit reason.
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Post by cordless2016 on Jul 27, 2023 15:44:43 GMT -5
It was never that Vince couldn’t pay him. I’ve never bought that considering he paid Tyson millions a few months later.
Vince was desperate in 1996. He needed Bret back badly. Bret took his time following WM12 to make a decision (a well deserved sabbatical for Bret). Bret was also negotiating with WCW at the time. Bret himself said he used it only to help improve his offer from Vince (totally Bret’s right as a contractor to get the best offer he could). Despite Bret having every right to negotiate with anyone, from Vince’s perspective, it probably felt like a betrayal when his company was near bankruptcy. And we know from decades of reports how much Vince holds a grudge.
Fast forward to a year later, and while the WWF is still struggling, they are on the upswing. Austin has emerged as one of the hottest things in the industry. DX is pushing boundaries. Taker has evolved his character. And the Heart Foundation have proven to be strong heels to Austin’s character.
By mid-1997, Vince wasn’t so desperate any longer. We know from reports that he holds grudges, and Bret’s contract was likely a sticking point for him. If anything, he likely viewed it as Bret getting one over on him. Throw in Bret and Shawn’s issues, and the decision likely wasn’t hard for Vince to come back to Bret’s contract. The business was getting edgier, and Shawn Michaels fit that more than Bret. Also doesn’t help that HBK was much younger than Bret either.
No, I’ve never bought it as being a work. The screwjob was legit. However, I’ve never bought the idea that Vince couldn’t afford him any longer. Vince offered Bret a half-assed contract right before he left, and paying Tyson truck loads of money months later plays into this.
In 1996, Vince was desperate. In 1997, he wasn’t as desperate, and Bret’s legit feud with HBK didn’t help matters either.
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sinfony
Mid-Carder
Joined on: Jul 25, 2023 4:22:29 GMT -5
Posts: 103 
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Post by sinfony on Jul 27, 2023 16:39:06 GMT -5
I love HBK, but he wanted to stick it to Bret and no wrestler in history not even Hogan seems to have had a hold over Vince like HBK did. No way he was ever picking or siding with Bret. Yep, and add into the situation that for Vince, Bret never fit what he traditionally wanted from the main guy in the company. Bret was never the all-American hero (Hogan, the Luger push), the cocky bad boy (HBK, Austin) or the imposing, seemingly unstoppable physical giant or "physical specimen" (Andre, Warrior, Yokozuna, Diesel, Sid, Taker) - all of which Vince fantasised about being himself to varying degrees. Bret only got his shot in 1992 because he was pretty much the only credible option left standing and it was only the quality of his ringwork and the fact that he quickly attracted a large amount of fans as champion - especially globally - that allowed him to remain a title option in Vince's eyes, but he would still take the belt off Bret and try and take him out of the championship picture whenever one of the options above turned up... I mean he ever had Bret job to Bob Backlund who promptly got squashed 3 days later to give the big 7 foot tall guy the belt.
Of course Bret also had to drop the strap against the monster Yokozuna, which just seconds later would of course be put on Hulk to boot. And of course Bret had to drop the title after 24 hours to the big man Sid so that Vince could have his WM main event being the two big guys duelling it out for the title. Remember that barely a year after headlining the company's big 10th anniversary WrestleMania, Vince preferred to have a SummerSlam main event title match between Diesel and Mabel while Bret was left with a match against Jerry Lawler's dentist and then placed Bret in a feud against a pirate who stole his jacket. It's a credit to Bret's talents that he managed to keep himself in the picture at the top table for so long given Vince's inherent bias against a 230 lb mild-mannered non-American babyface, and he probably only managed to play such a prominent role as a maineventer in 1997 because he relented to Vince and took up the anti-American heel role. Had Bret refused, Vince was just going to downgrade him to mid-card feuds with the likes of Vader. |
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jul 27, 2023 17:16:50 GMT -5
I always heard that Vince had a vision for The Attitude Era and Bret Hart wasn't part of it.
Thinking about it I couldn't have imagined Bret in WWE in 1998. He just wouldn't have fitted in.
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Post by Back to the Codyverse on Jul 27, 2023 17:18:21 GMT -5
I always heard that Vince had a vision for The Attitude Era and Bret Hart wasn't part of it. Thinking about it I couldn't have imagined Bret in WWE in 1998. He just wouldn't have fitted in. While I agree with your point, I imagine it would’ve been better than most of Bret’s WCW run |
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Post by jason88cubs on Jul 27, 2023 17:32:13 GMT -5
I feel like Vince regretted the contract right away. he never viewed Bret as the "TOP GUY" sure Bret was a champion ,what 5 times? but I truly believe Vince saw Bret as a dedicated placeholder who would never say no
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Post by cordless2016 on Jul 27, 2023 18:13:35 GMT -5
I always heard that Vince had a vision for The Attitude Era and Bret Hart wasn't part of it. Thinking about it I couldn't have imagined Bret in WWE in 1998. He just wouldn't have fitted in. I could see Bret playing the Backlund role from 1994; the old timer who is trying to bring respect and honor back to the WWF. No, I don’t think Bret would have gotten a run with the WWF Title in 1998, but I could see him staying relevant towards the top of the card, especially with HBK gone following WM. |
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Post by ASR (therockisback) on Jul 27, 2023 18:31:27 GMT -5
I always heard that Vince had a vision for The Attitude Era and Bret Hart wasn't part of it. Thinking about it I couldn't have imagined Bret in WWE in 1998. He just wouldn't have fitted in. I could see Bret playing the Backlund role from 1994; the old timer who is trying to bring respect and honor back to the WWF. No, I don’t think Bret would have gotten a run with the WWF Title in 1998, but I could see him staying relevant towards the top of the card, especially with HBK gone following WM. Bret still could have been a big star in the Attitude / Ruthless eras |
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Post by MKSavage on Jul 27, 2023 18:49:16 GMT -5
It was never that Vince couldn’t pay him. I’ve never bought that considering he paid Tyson millions a few months later. Vince was desperate in 1996. He needed Bret back badly. Bret took his time following WM12 to make a decision (a well deserved sabbatical for Bret). Bret was also negotiating with WCW at the time. Bret himself said he used it only to help improve his offer from Vince (totally Bret’s right as a contractor to get the best offer he could). Despite Bret having every right to negotiate with anyone, from Vince’s perspective, it probably felt like a betrayal when his company was near bankruptcy. And we know from decades of reports how much Vince holds a grudge. Fast forward to a year later, and while the WWF is still struggling, they are on the upswing. Austin has emerged as one of the hottest things in the industry. DX is pushing boundaries. Taker has evolved his character. And the Heart Foundation have proven to be strong heels to Austin’s character. By mid-1997, Vince wasn’t so desperate any longer. We know from reports that he holds grudges, and Bret’s contract was likely a sticking point for him. If anything, he likely viewed it as Bret getting one over on him. Throw in Bret and Shawn’s issues, and the decision likely wasn’t hard for Vince to come back to Bret’s contract. The business was getting edgier, and Shawn Michaels fit that more than Bret. Also doesn’t help that HBK was much younger than Bret either. No, I’ve never bought it as being a work. The screwjob was legit. However, I’ve never bought the idea that Vince couldn’t afford him any longer. Vince offered Bret a half-assed contract right before he left, and paying Tyson truck loads of money months later plays into this. In 1996, Vince was desperate. In 1997, he wasn’t as desperate, and Bret’s legit feud with HBK didn’t help matters either. Yeah, I don't believe he couldn't pay him, I think he worried that with Bret's contract, other upcoming wrestlers would want the same, or more. Plus, I think Vince felt in late 1997, that he had a crop of guys he could use going forward and be in the same place. Him giving Tyson a huge pay day for a handful of appearances and offering Warrior a big 5-year contract in December of 1997, proves money wasn't the issue. I think Vince had a choice, keep Bret at a high price, or go younger with Austin, Rock, Taker, HBK, HHH, Mick, etc. at a lower price. And, if he knew at that time that Austin would be his guy going forward, with the Rock starting to rise quickly, he probably knew that Austin would want a deal just like Bret's when it came time to renegotiate, which means he would have two guys on the payroll making $1.5 a year which probably would have made it harder to re-sign other guys. With that being said, I think Bret could have worked in the Attitude Era, he could still work in the ring, and he could have been used as someone who really hated the direction that wrestling was going and wanting to take wrestling back to where it used to be. I've always felt that Bret should have been the one to pass the torch to Austin at WM14. This would have given Austin that big win over Bret. From there, I could see the Hart Foundation really feuding with the new, babyface DX. After that, I always felt that Bret and Owen could have become tag team champions and had a nice run. That would have been the last hurrah for Bret, a tag team run with his brother, Owen. That probably would have been around the time that Bret's in-ring part of his contract would have ended; he would have moved into being an agent from there. |
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Post by cordless2016 on Jul 27, 2023 19:16:47 GMT -5
It was never that Vince couldn’t pay him. I’ve never bought that considering he paid Tyson millions a few months later. Vince was desperate in 1996. He needed Bret back badly. Bret took his time following WM12 to make a decision (a well deserved sabbatical for Bret). Bret was also negotiating with WCW at the time. Bret himself said he used it only to help improve his offer from Vince (totally Bret’s right as a contractor to get the best offer he could). Despite Bret having every right to negotiate with anyone, from Vince’s perspective, it probably felt like a betrayal when his company was near bankruptcy. And we know from decades of reports how much Vince holds a grudge. Fast forward to a year later, and while the WWF is still struggling, they are on the upswing. Austin has emerged as one of the hottest things in the industry. DX is pushing boundaries. Taker has evolved his character. And the Heart Foundation have proven to be strong heels to Austin’s character. By mid-1997, Vince wasn’t so desperate any longer. We know from reports that he holds grudges, and Bret’s contract was likely a sticking point for him. If anything, he likely viewed it as Bret getting one over on him. Throw in Bret and Shawn’s issues, and the decision likely wasn’t hard for Vince to come back to Bret’s contract. The business was getting edgier, and Shawn Michaels fit that more than Bret. Also doesn’t help that HBK was much younger than Bret either. No, I’ve never bought it as being a work. The screwjob was legit. However, I’ve never bought the idea that Vince couldn’t afford him any longer. Vince offered Bret a half-assed contract right before he left, and paying Tyson truck loads of money months later plays into this. In 1996, Vince was desperate. In 1997, he wasn’t as desperate, and Bret’s legit feud with HBK didn’t help matters either. Yeah, I don't believe he couldn't pay him, I think he worried that with Bret's contract, other upcoming wrestlers would want the same, or more. Plus, I think Vince felt in late 1997, that he had a crop of guys he could use going forward and be in the same place. Him giving Tyson a huge pay day for a handful of appearances and offering Warrior a big 5-year contract in December of 1997, proves money wasn't the issue. I think Vince had a choice, keep Bret at a high price, or go younger with Austin, Rock, Taker, HBK, HHH, Mick, etc. at a lower price. And, if he knew at that time that Austin would be his guy going forward, with the Rock starting to rise quickly, he probably knew that Austin would want a deal just like Bret's when it came time to renegotiate, which means he would have two guys on the payroll making $1.5 a year which probably would have made it harder to re-sign other guys. With that being said, I think Bret could have worked in the Attitude Era, he could still work in the ring, and he could have been used as someone who really hated the direction that wrestling was going and wanting to take wrestling back to where it used to be. I've always felt that Bret should have been the one to pass the torch to Austin at WM14. This would have given Austin that big win over Bret. From there, I could see the Hart Foundation really feuding with the new, babyface DX. After that, I always felt that Bret and Owen could have become tag team champions and had a nice run. That would have been the last hurrah for Bret, a tag team run with his brother, Owen. That probably would have been around the time that Bret's in-ring part of his contract would have ended; he would have moved into being an agent from there. I’ve always felt that early plans for WM14 was Hart vs Austin. It made sense from a storyline perspective. Austin had been feuding mainly with Bret and the Hart Foundation from Survivor Series ‘96 to Survivor Series ‘97. Austin beat Jim. Austin beat Pillman. Austin beat Davey, and Austin beat Owen. The one guy he had yet to beat one on one; Bret. It always felt like to me that Hart vs Austin at WM14 was the early gameplan. |
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HeelPiper
Superstar
Joined on: Nov 11, 2019 17:04:10 GMT -5
Posts: 667
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Post by HeelPiper on Jul 27, 2023 19:34:10 GMT -5
I always heard that Vince had a vision for The Attitude Era and Bret Hart wasn't part of it. Thinking about it I couldn't have imagined Bret in WWE in 1998. He just wouldn't have fitted in. My issue is that Bret was the most over and polarizing figure in 97, and doing the best ring work in the promotion. In March he helped make Steve Austin a bonafide superstar. He was operating at a very high level as a talent, and his character as a bitter/disgruntled wrestler fit the current edgier product. He was blurring the line between kayfabe and reality, he was on the cutting edge. I don't think he needed to "fit in" in terms of being edgier, his bitter character was a perfect contrast for the Federation's product. |
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Post by Grenouille on Jul 27, 2023 20:33:42 GMT -5
I think in hindsight Vince just wanted out of the contract for whatever reason. The WWF in ‘97 was hardly on its deathbed. Business was booming, just not at WCW or AE levels yet. Trying to guess Vince’s motives is sometimes a fool’s errand, but I’ll take a try. Bret was on top a lot from ‘92-‘97, when business was mostly soft. Bret was a good loyal soldier who was for a lack of better term “safe”. Even during this period Vince was still looking for his next Hogan whether it be Luger or Diesel. In the end when they didn’t work out Bret would get handed the ball. In essence Bret was an old reliable running back, but Vince always had his eye elsewhere for the next big thing. Funny enough it was Bret himself that helped cement who that person would be.
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jul 27, 2023 20:45:14 GMT -5
I always heard that Vince had a vision for The Attitude Era and Bret Hart wasn't part of it. Thinking about it I couldn't have imagined Bret in WWE in 1998. He just wouldn't have fitted in. I could see Bret playing the Backlund role from 1994; the old timer who is trying to bring respect and honor back to the WWF. No, I don’t think Bret would have gotten a run with the WWF Title in 1998, but I could see him staying relevant towards the top of the card, especially with HBK gone following WM. From 2000 right into the RA era I could easily imagine a main event spot for Bret, but 1998/1999 no way. You had Austin, Kane, Taker, Foley, DX and a rising Rock so where would that have left Bret? After his great run in 1997 I would've hated to see him fall down the card. |
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Post by The Brain on Jul 27, 2023 20:48:31 GMT -5
It's a shame Bret's WWF run ended the way it did looking back. Him losing to Austin at WM XIV for the belt wouldve been an ideal way to cap it off
Instead we get all this Montreal BS and he goes to WCW(we all know how they treated em) with his career being ended by a kick from Goldberg 2 yrs later.
Just a sad ending to one awesome career
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Post by ASR (therockisback) on Jul 27, 2023 20:51:30 GMT -5
I could see Bret playing the Backlund role from 1994; the old timer who is trying to bring respect and honor back to the WWF. No, I don’t think Bret would have gotten a run with the WWF Title in 1998, but I could see him staying relevant towards the top of the card, especially with HBK gone following WM. From 2000 right into the RA era I could easily imagine a main event spot for Bret, but 1998/1999 no way. You had Austin, Kane, Taker, Foley, DX and a rising Rock so where would that have left Bret? After his great run in 1997 I would've hated to see him fall down the card. Yep in 98/99 Bret would be between mid card, upper mid card and occasionally in the main event... he still would have been a big star tho & over no matter what tbh Between 2000-2010 he could have been a part time main event guy like Goldberg nowadays |
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Post by JokerFC on Jul 28, 2023 3:26:43 GMT -5
There's no way Vince couldn't afford him. He just wasn't as hard up in 97 seen he had options & decided to leverage Brets big WCW offer against it.
Also Montreal wasn't a work. Do people genuinely believe that 25 years later the people involved & in the top tier in the immediate aftermath are still keeping it a secret? Cornette, Ross etc? Nah.
My biggest gripe with all this was no way did it just dawn on vince in September about this. He had to have known & STILL put the title on him at Summerslam.
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Post by TKO Propagandist on Jul 28, 2023 5:54:04 GMT -5
It's crazy to me that Shawn was gone just 4 months after Bret. If only Bret had of stayed he would have eventually been free from that pillhead.
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