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Post by sickchrismondo on Jul 9, 2007 21:01:35 GMT -5
You haven't as otherwise I wouldn't have picked up on it. And my bad saying 'puro' smarks. It is mainly these people who think anything on the planet other than NOAH isn't any good. Whats so good about NOAH? I've watched it many times and can NEVER get into it. Minus a few of the juniors.
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Post by Sam on Jul 10, 2007 0:44:05 GMT -5
You haven't as otherwise I wouldn't have picked up on it. And my bad saying 'puro' smarks. It is mainly these people who think anything on the planet other than NOAH isn't any good. Whats so good about NOAH? I've watched it many times and can NEVER get into it. Minus a few of the juniors. Seriously, this is **** we as indy fans have seen attempted horribly and slowly multiple times in promotions here. Dude does everything like a ing video game. I am pretty sure I stated my point, right there. What's so good about NOAH: - One of few promotions that really doesn't use any fancy angles or storylines in their product. - Their matches tell stories through the in-ring work better than ANYTHING in the States. You can literally grasp an entire feud, character, or rivalry through what is going on in the match. - Features some of the best wrestlers in the world of today (KENTA, Marufuji, Marvin, Danielson, Nigel, Sugiura, Akiyama) and the past (Misawa, Taue, Kobashi). - Feature overall some of the best in-ring action in the world. I mean, Meltzer has them as Promotion of the year for 2004 and 2005, their talent made the matches of the year for 2003-2005 (and should have 2006, Danielson/KENTA was better than the DG 6-man), rookie of the year 2006 in Atsushi Aoki, and major show of the year for 2004 and 2005. I mean, it's not like Meltzer's opinions are facts, but a lot of people hold what he thinks really highly and he is right about a lot of stuff.
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Post by sickchrismondo on Jul 10, 2007 6:42:58 GMT -5
It's a good thing they have no storylines? Most matches tell stories that aren't hard to pick up on. You watch nearly any wrestlig match it's clear it's got a set story to it. Wether it be a heel working over an injured body part and a face trying to overcome it, that's a story. I watch wrestling to be entertained by tecnical ability of wrestlers, the risks they take and how they've perfected moves that are so hard to master. Also how they keep a fan hooked. If I wanted to read some huge complex story which seems to be what attracts everyone to NOAH, yet nobody every describes what they mean. NOAH just tell 'stories' apparently, I'd read a book. Every match tells a story in someway unless they're pretty crap wrestlers. A match needs to flow so it always follows a story somehow. Wether it be something simple like a heel picking apart an injured bodypart and the face trying to overcome it by being cut off, then eventually coming back only to be cheated of victory. That's still a story. In my opinion, I prefer the rosters of many U.S promotions. Meltzer. Seriously, I hate that guy so much. Not personally. Because of how people see him as a messiah. He's just a fan with an opinion. Like you or me.
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Tazmission
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Post by Tazmission on Jul 10, 2007 8:10:00 GMT -5
I am pretty sure I stated my point, right there. What's so good about NOAH: - One of few promotions that really doesn't use any fancy angles or storylines in their product. - Their matches tell stories through the in-ring work better than ANYTHING in the States. You can literally grasp an entire feud, character, or rivalry through what is going on in the match. - Features some of the best wrestlers in the world of today (KENTA, Marufuji, Marvin, Danielson, Nigel, Sugiura, Akiyama) and the past (Misawa, Taue, Kobashi). - That's not just NOAH, dude. NOAH pretty much operates the same as AJPW did in the 90s, and how it AJPW does today. - I'll get to this point when I quote Chris below... - Yeah, the guys that you listed are all really great (alongside Shiozaki, Rikio, Morishima, Yone at times, etc.). But honestly, a bulk on NOAH's undercard is pretty shitty. You take guys like Yoshinari Ogawa, Masashi Aoyagi, Masao Inoue, Kentaro Shiga, Akitoshi Saito, Shiro Koshinaka, Kishin Kawabata, Jun Izumida... all suck hard. It's a mixed bag. The main dudes are awesome for sure, but the roster has a lot of craptoo. It's a good thing they have no storylines? Most matches tell stories that aren't hard to pick up on. You watch nearly any wrestlig match it's clear it's got a set story to it. Wether it be a heel working over an injured body part and a face trying to overcome it, that's a story. I watch wrestling to be entertained by tecnical ability of wrestlers, the risks they take and how they've perfected moves that are so hard to master. Also how they keep a fan hooked. If I wanted to read some huge complex story which seems to be what attracts everyone to NOAH, yet nobody every describes what they mean. NOAH just tell 'stories' apparently, I'd read a book. Every match tells a story in someway unless they're pretty crap wrestlers. A match needs to flow so it always follows a story somehow. Wether it be something simple like a heel picking apart an injured bodypart and the face trying to overcome it by being cut off, then eventually coming back only to be cheated of victory. That's still a story. In my opinion, I prefer the rosters of many U.S promotions. Honestly man, that's completely off base. A lot of the criticism of NOAH in the past like... two years, especially when Kobashi was GHC Champ, was that it was simply head-drops without telling a story. There was a lot of complaining because NOAH got away from the King's Road style of storytelling for the flashy, but eventually meaningless, stuff. Recently, especially with old-man Misawa with the belt, they've kinda gotten away from that stigma, as you see matches like Misawa/Sano and Marufuji/Akiyama that are story-based (and the stories are NOT complex in the least). Still, NOAH 2007 has been kinda sucky compared to 04-06.
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Post by Sam on Jul 10, 2007 9:12:55 GMT -5
Taz: - You know I know that man. NOAH is very similar to 90's AJPW in their approach at booking. While it may not be as good, I know they aren't the exclusive promotion to ever do such things. That's why I said "one of the few". And by fancy angles and storylines, I mean no Jimmy Loves Lacey, no Special K raves, that stuff. Not a promotion completely devoid of issues. - Ah, but come on. Ogawa is a role-player, Aoyagi is never there, Inoue I'll give you, same with Shiga, Saito is not that bad, Koshinaka doesn't wrestle there anymore, I'll give you Kawabata, and Izumida. So that, what, 5 guys that REALLY suck and are on every show? Every promotion has those guys you just don't like. Some may have fewer, but it isn't like a negative for NOAH. - I think one of the best stories of 2007 is the Takayama & Sugiura vs. Akiayama & Rikio match. Pretty much, the small Sugiura is trying to show he can hang with the biggest of the best havyweights. So he takes it right to Akiyama and Rikio. Eventually, Akiyama gets fed up with things and, in essence, tells Sugi to " ing stop" with a running knee on the ramp. Sugiura won't stop, and takes it right back to Akiyama and Rikio, showing nothing but heart. Some other stuff goes down, as I haven't seen the match in like a month, but that's the basic idea behind a lot of matches: telling a story that goes past "babyface in peril" or "heel focuses on injury" that we've seen in 100,764,456 matches over the years. NOAH goes with character or situation specific stories that really make sense. I got to go to work, more on this later.
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Post by sickchrismondo on Jul 10, 2007 9:58:34 GMT -5
Yeah NOAH goes much further by having a guy give his partner his signature move because hes going too far to which he then continues. Because that totally makes sense. To me it sounds pretty dumb.
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whatthe[img]http://www.wrestlingfigs.com/images/wfcensored.gif[/img]isrop
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Post by whatthe[img]http://www.wrestlingfigs.com/images/wfcensored.gif[/img]isrop on Jul 10, 2007 10:02:07 GMT -5
Jesus ing christ. I don't post here much, but I think I need to say something. I'm not trying to start a flame war or whatever it's called, but Dean needs to shut up, and accept other people's opinions. Some people don't like it, get over it. I think it is pretty damn boring, even some of the Junior's make me want to turn it off. And stop acting as if you've found a hidden gem in Mistico. He's so last year.
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Post by Kliff and the Brewers on Jul 10, 2007 12:57:12 GMT -5
. Or he just watched Jun Akiyama a lot. Is there something wrong with that?
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Robby Wreckless
Main Eventer
BETTER THAN KENTA!
Joined on: Dec 18, 2001 19:10:39 GMT -5
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Post by Robby Wreckless on Jul 10, 2007 13:36:13 GMT -5
Mistico is soo 2006. El Blazer is whats in.
But on the topic of lucha, cause that's what this was originally about and somehow everyone started arguing about Taue, Akiyama and happy Whitmer.
Check out some Rey Bucenero, or Chessman, much better wrestlers as a whole than Mistico.
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Post by Kliff and the Brewers on Jul 10, 2007 14:03:33 GMT -5
Rey Bucanaero and Ultimo Guerrero rock.
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whatthe[img]http://www.wrestlingfigs.com/images/wfcensored.gif[/img]isrop
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Post by whatthe[img]http://www.wrestlingfigs.com/images/wfcensored.gif[/img]isrop on Jul 10, 2007 15:17:58 GMT -5
Mistico is soo 2006. El Blazer is whats in. But on the topic of lucha, cause that's what this was originally about and somehow everyone started arguing about Taue, Akiyama and happy Whitmer. Check out some Rey Bucenero, or Chessman, much better wrestlers as a whole than Mistico. Chessman is probably my favourite wrestler in AAA right now. I've never really got into Rey Bucanero. However, I reccomend highly the Gran Apache/Billy Boy feud. It is probably the greatest feud all year, no joke. It's really starting to heat up now, what with Billy Boy pretending to be a trainee, and learning all Apache's secrets. Great stuff. This promo shows just how awesome a rudo Apache is...
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Post by Sam on Jul 10, 2007 16:41:46 GMT -5
[quote author=whatthe isrop board=prowrestlingother thread=1184010959 post=1184079727]Jesus ing christ. I don't post here much, but I think I need to say something. I'm not trying to start a flame war or whatever it's called, but Dean needs to shut up, and accept other people's opinions. Some people don't like it, get over it. I think it is pretty damn boring, even some of the Junior's make me want to turn it off. And stop acting as if you've found a hidden gem in Mistico. He's so last year.[/quote] How am I not accepting someone else's opinions? I was just discussing stuff about NOAH and why I like it. I wasn't telling Chris "omg you're wrong shut up NOAH is the best", just explaining a good story and what's "so good" about NOAH when he asked "what's so good about NOAH"? Also, I never acted like I found a hidden gem. I just wanted to point out how smooth he does some stuff. Really, you're acting like I came in here and started something like a flame war, when I was just discussing wrestling. No reason for anyone to hear your "omg jesus shut up" rant when I am doing nothing you stated. And seriously..."he's so last year"? We're talking about a wrestler, not a red-carpet dress or some crapon E!. Chris- Umm...no. I said Akiyama gave Sugiura a message with the knee. They aren't partners. They're on different teams. If what you said was the case, well yeah, that'd be absolutely intellectually- disabled.
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Post by sickchrismondo on Jul 10, 2007 16:52:15 GMT -5
Well I got confused. My bad.
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Post by Sam on Jul 10, 2007 16:56:36 GMT -5
No problem. If something like that did happen, I'd think it would sound pretty dumb too.
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Post by Deano on Jul 10, 2007 17:08:02 GMT -5
Love Machine is the best lucha wrestler, RIP And I've always believed that alot of 'smarks' like Japanese wrestling just because it's Japanese. EDIT: Ok, I just finished watching that video. While alot of the moves were really cool, some of the stuff - and this is what annoys me about wrestling, particularly lucha - is REALLY unnecessary. For example, at 1:08 when Averno cartwheels over Mistico and then backflips - is that really necessary? The fact that he is backflipping for no reason whatsoever during an actual FIGHT really takes away the realism aspect for me. I mean, I can see Mistico doing headscissors and crapand I know that would never happen in a real fight too, but I can suspend my disbelief for something like that. When someone busts out a backflip for no reason at all, it really annoys me.
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Post by holic08 on Jul 10, 2007 17:32:44 GMT -5
- Their matches tell stories through the in-ring work better than ANYTHING in the States. You can literally grasp an entire feud, character, or rivalry through what is going on in the match. I like Pro Wrestling NOAH for the most part, but I usually fail to pick up on some of the "backstory" throughout matches. I do that with a lot of Japanese wrestling. Take the All Japan tag from 1995 that is considered like the greatest tag team match EVER. I watched it. It's interesting. But it's REALLY boring to me. I guess you have to know what was going on in AJPW and the backstory and you don't get that through just one match.
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Tazmission
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jan 23, 2002 11:30:19 GMT -5
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Post by Tazmission on Jul 10, 2007 17:44:43 GMT -5
- Their matches tell stories through the in-ring work better than ANYTHING in the States. You can literally grasp an entire feud, character, or rivalry through what is going on in the match. I like Pro Wrestling NOAH for the most part, but I usually fail to pick up on some of the "backstory" throughout matches. I do that with a lot of Japanese wrestling. Take the All Japan tag from 1995 that is considered like the greatest tag team match EVER. I watched it. It's interesting. But it's REALLY boring to me. I guess you have to know what was going on in AJPW and the backstory and you don't get that through just one match. Yeah, the 6/9/95 tag match is really great. Second best tag match ever IMO, right behind Kawada/Taue VS Misawa/Akiyama from 12/6/96. But still, 90s AJPW isn't for everyone. I tried watching it when I first got into puro a little over two years ago, and didn't care much for it. Now I think it's the best period of sustained greatness a company has ever had *shrug*
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Robby Wreckless
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BETTER THAN KENTA!
Joined on: Dec 18, 2001 19:10:39 GMT -5
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Post by Robby Wreckless on Jul 10, 2007 19:06:30 GMT -5
Love Machine is the best lucha wrestler, RIP Yes Art Barr was a great wrestler, best lucha wrestler I think not. Ok, I just finished watching that video. While alot of the moves were really cool, some of the stuff - and this is what annoys me about wrestling, particularly lucha - is REALLY unnecessary. For example, at 1:08 when Averno cartwheels over Mistico and then backflips - is that really necessary? The fact that he is backflipping for no reason whatsoever during an actual FIGHT really takes away the realism aspect for me. I mean, I can see Mistico doing headscissors and **** and I know that would never happen in a real fight too, but I can suspend my disbelief for something like that. When someone busts out a backflip for no reason at all, it really annoys me. You realize this is LUCHA LIBRE right? Showmanship is the key. Being over the top, flips and spins, flashy costumes, dancy ladies, carona and midgets. It's supposed to be over the top. It's not Japanese wrestling, its not all hard strikes and head drops. I think that's why I like it more than Puroresu because it's not real, it's not trying to be real, it's a great show. Even the real blood fueds that really get down and dirty its still a great show.
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Post by sickchrismondo on Jul 10, 2007 19:09:18 GMT -5
But Dean isn't Pac one of your favourites? He usually does a handspring off the ropes then backflips for no reason. No offense I mean I <3 Pac too I just noticed that. AWE SATURDAY <3
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Post by Deano on Jul 10, 2007 19:25:30 GMT -5
Love Machine is the best lucha wrestler, RIP Yes Art Barr was a great wrestler, best lucha wrestler I think not. Yeah, I was joking. Ok, I just finished watching that video. While alot of the moves were really cool, some of the stuff - and this is what annoys me about wrestling, particularly lucha - is REALLY unnecessary. For example, at 1:08 when Averno cartwheels over Mistico and then backflips - is that really necessary? The fact that he is backflipping for no reason whatsoever during an actual FIGHT really takes away the realism aspect for me. I mean, I can see Mistico doing headscissors and **** and I know that would never happen in a real fight too, but I can suspend my disbelief for something like that. When someone busts out a backflip for no reason at all, it really annoys me. You realize this is LUCHA LIBRE right? Showmanship is the key. Being over the top, flips and spins, flashy costumes, dancy ladies, carona and midgets. It's supposed to be over the top. It's not Japanese wrestling, its not all hard strikes and head drops. I think that's why I like it more than Puroresu because it's not real, it's not trying to be real, it's a great show. Even the real blood fueds that really get down and dirty its still a great show. I realise it is lucha libre, yeah. And I really enjoy some of the flashier things they do. But when someone backflips for no reason, it just really puts me off. Dunno where you're going with the Puro comments because I'm not a big fan of Puro and I find matches that rely heavily on strikes to be pretty boring. But really, I enjoy all the spectacle and flashiness of lucha libre, but certain things just go to far, seem too over the top and annoy me to a point where I have to stop and think 'oh come on'. It's kinda like, I will believe so much but doing something like that for no reason is stretching my disbelief too far.If that even makes sense ;[ But Dean isn't Pac one of your favourites? He usually does a handspring off the ropes then backflips for no reason. No offense I mean I <3 Pac too I just noticed that. Pac gets away with it because he does SHOOTING STAR KNEES TO SOMEONES HEAD... ON THE OUTSIDE! I wouldn't say he's one of my faves, but he's up there. That's one thing that really bugs me about him too though, too many unnecessary things he does. Like at AWW against Storm, I think alot of the flips he did off the top were unecessary because he missed ALL of them except like one AWE SATURDAY <3 <3
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