Johnny Lawrence - Cobra Kai
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Joined on: Jul 25, 2005 17:12:49 GMT -5
Posts: 3,209
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Post by Johnny Lawrence - Cobra Kai on Jul 13, 2008 9:46:03 GMT -5
Just found this and thought it was interesting: www.sportsline.com/mmaboxing/story/10890924Basically, they picked 32 MMA fighters, past and present, and seeded them into an all-time pound for pound tournament where people can vote on who wins each match, all the way to the finals. I always find things like this fascinating, because you have to use your imagination. For example, when I compare Royce Gracie in his prime to Urijah Faber in his prime, I don't just think about who would win that fight. I honestly don't think it's fair to Gracie to do that, because the sport has evolved so much since his heyday. I think it's more fair to compare each guy's performance against the guys he had to fight in his prime -- when you look at it that way, I think it's easier to give guys like Severn and Gracie their due. They did awesome against the best of their time, but to plop Dan Severn (even in his prime) in the cage against a guy like Faber, and negate his size advantage (per the rules of this particular tournament), it's not even fair, because Severn in his prime didn't train to fight guys as well-rounded as the current Fabers, St. Pierres, Penns, etc. Thought it would be a good discussion. What do you guys think? |
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Post by Codesters on Jul 13, 2008 10:53:53 GMT -5
They paired Fedor with Rich.....aw  ! |
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Post by ajstyles888 on Jul 13, 2008 11:22:26 GMT -5
Rich over Fedor ..  - Iron Heart |
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Post by Overnight Sensation on Jul 13, 2008 14:32:34 GMT -5
I don't know about some of the names on the list honestly, Torres, Sherk, KEN Shamrock, Lindland, Cung Le
This is a very smart idea without a doubt but it will probably end up being a popularity contest...Tito Ortiz/Chuck Liddell Finals
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Post by Ian from 616Entertainment. on Jul 13, 2008 14:39:56 GMT -5
Egh. I am not a fan of these types of things. It's going to end up being a popularity contest anyway, since it's based on voting.
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DWright
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Post by DWright on Jul 13, 2008 14:51:52 GMT -5
I don't know about some of the names on the list honestly, Torres, Sherk, KEN Shamrock, Lindland, Cung Le This is a very smart idea without a doubt but it will probably end up being a popularity contest...Tito Ortiz/Chuck Liddell Finals I agree with you on some of that (Le, Ken, Sherk) but this IS P4P, Torres definitely belongs. Le needs to beat someone other than an old/decrepit Frank Shamrock before I name him one of the best MMA fighters of ALL time. Where is Paulo Filho? If Le deserves to be on it, Filho does more. As does Fitch. AND Aoki. No Kid Yamamoto? That's embarassing. I HATE, HAAAATE him, but he deserves to be on the list... But meh, a fan favorite will win this. Ortiz/Liddell/Couture. |
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Post by Ian from 616Entertainment. on Jul 13, 2008 15:05:08 GMT -5
I don't know about some of the names on the list honestly, Torres, Sherk, KEN Shamrock, Lindland, Cung Le This is a very smart idea without a doubt but it will probably end up being a popularity contest...Tito Ortiz/Chuck Liddell Finals I agree with you on some of that (Le, Ken, Sherk) but this IS P4P, Torres definitely belongs. Le needs to beat someone other than an old/decrepit Frank Shamrock before I name him one of the best MMA fighters of ALL time. Where is Paulo Filho? If Le deserves to be on it, Filho does more. As does Fitch. AND Aoki. No Kid Yamamoto? That's embarassing. I HATE, HAAAATE him, but he deserves to be on the list... But meh, a fan favorite will win this. Ortiz/Liddell/Couture. Excuse me? I believe you're talking about the wrong brother. Frank Shamrock, even today, can and would school most of the MW's out there. |
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DWright
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Post by DWright on Jul 13, 2008 15:28:37 GMT -5
I agree with you on some of that (Le, Ken, Sherk) but this IS P4P, Torres definitely belongs. Le needs to beat someone other than an old/decrepit Frank Shamrock before I name him one of the best MMA fighters of ALL time. Where is Paulo Filho? If Le deserves to be on it, Filho does more. As does Fitch. AND Aoki. No Kid Yamamoto? That's embarassing. I HATE, HAAAATE him, but he deserves to be on the list... But meh, a fan favorite will win this. Ortiz/Liddell/Couture. Excuse me? I believe you're talking about the wrong brother. Frank Shamrock, even today, can and would school most of the MW's out there. Based on what? Frank hasn't beat anyone in 9 years. Shamrock isn't even a top 15 MW anymore. I wouldn't even put him in the top 20. He's breaking down it's showing more and more. His career is over. People are hyping Le because of his big win over Frank Shamrock. If it was 10/12 years ago...alright, but now? I'm not exactly impressed. |
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Post by moogie101 on Jul 13, 2008 16:18:00 GMT -5
[I agree with you on some of that (Le, Ken, Sherk) but this IS P4P, Torres definitely belongs. Le needs to beat someone other than an old/decrepit Frank Shamrock before I name him one of the best MMA fighters of ALL time. |
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Post by Ian from 616Entertainment. on Jul 13, 2008 16:46:30 GMT -5
[I agree with you on some of that (Le, Ken, Sherk) but this IS P4P, Torres definitely belongs. Le needs to beat someone other than an old/decrepit Frank Shamrock before I name him one of the best MMA fighters of ALL time. Thank you Moogie, we're on the same page here. |
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DWright
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Post by DWright on Jul 13, 2008 18:22:48 GMT -5
[I agree with you on some of that (Le, Ken, Sherk) but this IS P4P, Torres definitely belongs. Le needs to beat someone other than an old/decrepit Frank Shamrock before I name him one of the best MMA fighters of ALL time. ...I didn't accept Ken. As you can see, I actually said I didn't think Ken really belonged there either. And pound for pound, Miguel Torres is one of the best fighters today, and I honestly think belongs in this tournament. Who exactly would you like him to fight? He's a Bantamweight in an up and coming division that's never had a lot of contenders. Not to mention, the guy is 34-1. You're telling me that doesn't deserve to be in the top MMA fighters of all time in terms of a best all around pound for pound fighter? I'm not even saying Frank doesn't belong. I'm saying Le doesn't belong because the only person he's ever beat IS the aged Frank Shamrock. You should really read my argument before starting a completely different one. |
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Post by Overnight Sensation on Jul 13, 2008 21:15:39 GMT -5
To me the divsion he fights in doesnt have much depth, thats why I dont think Torres should be up there
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DWright
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Post by DWright on Jul 13, 2008 21:26:52 GMT -5
To me the divsion he fights in doesnt have much depth, thats why I dont think Torres should be up there Again, it's P4P. 34-1 career record, hasn't lost in 5 years. I don't care what division you're in...that's impressive. Torres belongs, as does Kid Yamamoto. Both are just incredible fighters, even if Yamamoto is a complete piece of shit. |
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Post by Overnight Sensation on Jul 13, 2008 21:53:39 GMT -5
Kid should be there over torres
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Post by moogie101 on Jul 14, 2008 13:41:15 GMT -5
To me the divsion he fights in doesnt have much depth, thats why I dont think Torres should be up there Again, it's P4P. 34-1 career record, hasn't lost in 5 years. I don't care what division you're in...that's impressive. Torres belongs, as does Kid Yamamoto. Both are just incredible fighters, even if Yamamoto is a complete piece of ****. The problem isn't that Torres isn't an exciting fighter, anyone with eyes can see that. BUT even with his vast experience he hasn't yet beaten top named fighters that allow you to claim P4P. Despite your personal feelings for him Kid has beaten much better fighters & would desrve a place overTorres IMO. For example, anderson Silva before joining the uFC was a killer in cage Rage here in the UK. Destroying guys like Lee Murray, Rivera, Stout etc & looking impressive. But it was only once he started doing similar to better ranked guys in the UFC like Hendo, Marquardt, Franklin etc that he got acknowledged as P4P. I feel the same applies for Torrres |
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DWright
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Post by DWright on Jul 14, 2008 15:34:07 GMT -5
Again, it's P4P. 34-1 career record, hasn't lost in 5 years. I don't care what division you're in...that's impressive. Torres belongs, as does Kid Yamamoto. Both are just incredible fighters, even if Yamamoto is a complete piece of ****. The problem isn't that Torres isn't an exciting fighter, anyone with eyes can see that. BUT even with his vast experience he hasn't yet beaten top named fighters that allow you to claim P4P. Despite your personal feelings for him Kid has beaten much better fighters & would desrve a place overTorres IMO. For example, anderson Silva before joining the uFC was a killer in cage Rage here in the UK. Destroying guys like Lee Murray, Rivera, Stout etc & looking impressive. But it was only once he started doing similar to better ranked guys in the UFC like Hendo, Marquardt, Franklin etc that he got acknowledged as P4P. I feel the same applies for Torrres I agree Kid deserves to be there, even if he is a piece of shit. In fact, I was the one to say that. But Torres also belongs to be there. Who has Le beat to belong? He's 6-0. No matter the depth of the division, he still hasn't beat anyone. Torres is 34-1 and beaten everyone thrown in front of him. You can't argue he's not one of the best all around pound for pound fighters in the world today. And honestly, probably of all time. |
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Post by moogie101 on Jul 14, 2008 17:17:28 GMT -5
I can argue it very simply.
He's exciting but in my eyes he has not beaten anyone that I rate. Cung Le however has beaten Frank, hewnce I'd rate him above torres who despite his impressive record has not fought any genuine names
People are blowing Torres WEC 34 victory completely out of proportion.
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DWright
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Post by DWright on Jul 14, 2008 21:15:21 GMT -5
I can argue it very simply. He's exciting but in my eyes he has not beaten anyone that I rate. Cung Le however has beaten Frank, hewnce I'd rate him above torres who despite his impressive record has not fought any genuine names People are blowing Torres WEC 34 victory completely out of proportion. He destroyed the WEC champion, he beat up Maeda while displaying he has VERY few, if any, holes in his game. It's not Torres fault he's in a shallow division. If Torres moved up, he'd be manhandled. The divison will grow, and he's the poster boy for it. But how do you say people are blowing Torres victory out of proportion, when Cung Le's only real win has come against Frank Shamrock...and not 1998 Frank Shamrock, 2008 Frank Shamrock. Shamrock isn't/wasn't a top 15 MW, Le beats him and people say he's one of the best MMA fighters of all time? You honestly can't tell me Cung Le is an all around better, P4P fighter than Miguel Torres. If you honestly think that, you're just being biased. |
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Post by Overnight Sensation on Jul 14, 2008 22:10:21 GMT -5
Im shocked Jens didnt make an apperance on the list
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Post by moogie101 on Jul 15, 2008 0:26:41 GMT -5
I can argue it very simply. He's exciting but in my eyes he has not beaten anyone that I rate. Cung Le however has beaten Frank, hewnce I'd rate him above torres who despite his impressive record has not fought any genuine names People are blowing Torres WEC 34 victory completely out of proportion. He destroyed the WEC champion, he beat up Maeda while displaying he has VERY few, if any, holes in his game. It's not Torres fault he's in a shallow division. If Torres moved up, he'd be manhandled. The divison will grow, and he's the poster boy for it. But how do you say people are blowing Torres victory out of proportion, when Cung Le's only real win has come against Frank Shamrock...and not 1998 Frank Shamrock, 2008 Frank Shamrock. Shamrock isn't/wasn't a top 15 MW, Le beats him and people say he's one of the best MMA fighters of all time? You honestly can't tell me Cung Le is an all around better, P4P fighter than Miguel Torres. If you honestly think that, you're just being biased. Not biased, just my personal view same as your view with Torres. |
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