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Post by Kliquid on Jul 27, 2008 19:57:22 GMT -5
I wasn't saying it like it came out. I was trying to say-- Fedor beat Tim Sylvia in a very impressive fashion. While White (and the MMA world) made a big deal about Anderson Silva moving up in weight class, people got to see that free. That's why you make that fight against Irvin. You get to show the pure dominance of your poster boy, you hype that fact that he's moving up, and you get to see it all without paying a dime for it. Oh yeah, I get what you mean now. UFC was smart to put him on that card. To me, though, it didn't really add to his "mystique." The question still remains -- could he beat a GOOD light heavyweight? I'm talking someone in the top, oh, 25? Practically, yes. But that still leaves others. I'd even be satisfied if he just fought cans in the mean time. I think I'm more down on Fedor only because he fought a handful of times in almost 3 years. I just don't understand what people want from Fedor. It's not like he's ducking fights. He has openly said he would like to fight Couture and the like for YEARS, but UFC hasn't given him a realistic contract offer. Anderson Silva on the other hand, has fought 9 times. In all honesty, it's basically a timing thing. Fedor has dominated his whole career, and that's why he was the pound for pound best fighter in the world for YEARS. But since he's done all that pre-2006, I feel it hurts him now. Since, he hasn't fought anyone, and Silva has done major damage AND he's done it on the biggest stage. Which, like it or not, more people see and more people recognize. Silva has fought 9 times since the beginning of 2006; while Fedor has fought 5 times (he also fought on 12/31/2005). It's really not that big of a difference. Plus, it's not like Fedor has been fighting complete cans. He beat Mark Coleman (who had recently beaten Shogun), Mark Hunt (who holds a win over Cro Cop), Matt Lindland, Hong Man Choi, and Tim Sylvia. I realize that Matt Lindland was significantly smaller than Fedor -- and I still don't know why they made that fight -- but other than him and Hong Man Choi, everyone else that he fought was damn good... And to Hong Man Choi's credit, he actually landed a few good shots on Fedor before he got beat. I remember back in like 2005-2007 when people were saying that Tim Sylvia would "be a good fight for Fedor." I remember seeing people say that Sylvia was actually better than Fedor because he was 'fighting better competition'. What a joke that turned out to be. While Anderson Silva has beat some great fighters (Franklin, Henderson); I really don't feel like beating Chris Leben, Nathan Marquardt, or Travis Lutter is all that impressive. Sure, they're the top guys in UFC at the time; but are they really the top competition in the world? No. No they aren't. So why doesn't Anderson Silva get the same lack of credit that Fedor does? Fedor's beating just as legitimate of fighters as Anderson Silva is. And he has never lost. But like I've stated several times...if/when Fedor fights Barnett, Couture, AA...hell, even Cro Cop again, etc. And if he beats them, he'll reclaim the crown as the top fighter in the world. The only thing about that...is Silva may attempt to counter those fights with guys like Wandy, Chuck, Machida, etc. Why does Fedor have to beat all of the top competitors, but Silva doesn't? I guess when Anderson Silva beats Cung Le, Paulo Filho, Matt Lindland, Robbie Lawler, Yushin Okami (I know Silva was kicking his ass in the fight they had and basically got screwed), etc.; I might consider him the top fighter in the world... But even then, Fedor will be well on his way to beating every single other top heavyweight fighter in the world. |
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DWright
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Post by DWright on Jul 27, 2008 20:10:58 GMT -5
I didn't mean literally all of them, I was just listing a few that I'd like to see him beat. If he comes out and beats AA, I'll put him on a completely equal field as Silva again.
I can just see this turning into a lot of one up-manship (is that a word?)
Fedor beats AA, Silva dominates Cote and then quickly fights another 205.
Fedor beats Barnett, so Dana sticks a Silva/Silva fight (or something related)
And on and on and on.
I personally don't even have them on very different levels. After Fedor dominated Sylvia, I'd rate Silva and Fedor equal, but I can certainly see where people would rate Silva higher as of today.
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 27, 2008 22:01:45 GMT -5
But let's be honest here... What's more impressive? Silva beating Patrick Cote or Fedor beating Andrei Arlovski?
I know neither have happened yet and to never say never in MMA; but I just don't feel like the competition Anderson Silva has in the UFC middleweight division is that spectacular.
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DWright
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Post by DWright on Jul 27, 2008 22:14:00 GMT -5
But let's be honest here... What's more impressive? Silva beating Patrick Cote or Fedor beating Andrei Arlovski? I know neither have happened yet and to never say never in MMA; but I just don't feel like the competition Anderson Silva has in the UFC middleweight division is that spectacular. Well that's not really his fault. You can't keep denying guys that win the chance to at least fight for the belt. I mean, what do you say to Patrick Cote? "Sorry Patrick, we know you've pulled off a few fights and maybe deserve a title shot...but ya know, Anderson Silva is our champ and we really don't believe you have a chance in hell." Fedor now has more opponents available to him, which I love. I can't wait to see Fedor vs AA, Fedor vs Barnett (though he always was really), Fedor vs Couture, etc. And now that Silva is making himself availble to 205, he also gets new, fresh opponents. Chuck, Rampage (possibly), Griffin, Wandy, Machida, etc. |
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Post by Swarm on Jul 27, 2008 22:27:36 GMT -5
Did you just credit Choi as a fighter, but discredit Irvin? Come on. That rant was incredibly biased. Fedor beating him was impressive simply due to his size, not his ability. Choi can barely bend his joints and isn't even NEAR the talent level of James Irvin, let alone Fedor. Irvin was coming off 2 wins, and an impressive knock out of Houston Alexander. Choi's biggest wins came against guys like Akebono, Sapp or Semmy Schilt. Fedor's fight against was done for the David vs Goliath effect, and that alone. No one in their right mind gave Choi a chance in hell to beat Fedor. It was the exact same thing you mentioned about James Irvin. Choi was put into that fight to lose to Fedor. Fedor beats a real life giant, people praise him. Choi is not a real fighter, sorry. You take that fight about as serious as you would if he beat Sapp. Irvin vs Silva was a smart first fight for 205. Of course you want Silva to win that fight. You bring up the guy you market as your best fighter, and he loses his first fight at 205, you basically just "made him human" in a way. Not to mention, this was a free card that was thrown together very quickly. If you're going to set up a fight between say -- Silva and Chuck Liddell, you hype that for months, not 3 weeks, and you certainly don't put it on free cable. You make as much money off that fight as you possibly can. It's a business, and honestly it turned out picture perfect for Dana. While Fedor absolutely destroyed Tim Sylvia, Dana's poster boy Anderson Silva went up a weight class and destroyed his opponent on live, free tv. I already answered why James Irvin. Otherwise, Anderson Silva is in the place for the best, most constant competition. He's absolutely destroyed everyone he's fought and everyone put in front of him with ease. I'm not saying Fedor hasn't...but Silva has fought MUCH more than Fedor, and fought better competition. (since 06) No matter who's at fault for that (Fedor not having anyone to fight), he's still done it and you can't take that away from him. You do realize most people that Silva has fought, and people that fight at MW could, and do, easily fluctuate between MW and LHW, right? Rich Franklin, Dan Henderson, Jeremy Horn...all have fought at both and been very successful. Anderson Silva is without a doubt one of the best pound for pound fighters in the world. He can't drop down to prove that against KID, Torres, Faber, Penn, and I personally think he's too small to do so against a guy like Sylvia, Fedor, etc. Therefore, he fits the P4P argument perfectly. I think you missed my major point on the whole James Irvin/Hong Man Choi deal. What I was ultimately saying was it's hypocritical for people to say Silva destroying Irvin was further proof that he's the best and then turn around and say Fedor destroying Hong Man Choi was just a circus act and so on. Maybe I worded that a little negatively in regards to Silva, but what can I say, it's frustrating being a Fedor fan. Once again, I agree from UFC's standpoint it was a smart fight and again I agree that considering the lack of time to build it up and the fact it was free it made sense for him to go against a can, but that doesn't mean the win was really all that impressive for someone who's considered the best fighter in the world. As for the rest, I think I've covered my stance on the level of competition Fedor's had in the last year and a half compared to Silva and I think we just fundamentally disagree on Silva's eligibility for pound for pound consideration, so I don't really see any reason to argue about that. |
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DWright
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Post by DWright on Jul 28, 2008 0:14:03 GMT -5
I'm not trying to argue, just debate really. Personally, I'm not a fan of either of these guys. I mean, I don't dislike them, but neither are on my top 10 favorites. Hell, I want to see AA submit Fedor and Cote knock out Silva. Then everyone has to be quiet as the new king of MMA would be...  |
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DWright
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Post by DWright on Jul 28, 2008 0:16:21 GMT -5
Sorry for the double post, I just found it funny that I went to google for that picture and doing so, most of the pictures I saw for Wang were him getting kicked in the head, punched in the face, etc.
Poor poor guy. Mac Danzig will not be happy with this and will need to get his chi in order...or take pictures of birds...or something odd.
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 28, 2008 0:56:17 GMT -5
Well that's not really his fault. You can't keep denying guys that win the chance to at least fight for the belt. I mean, what do you say to Patrick Cote? "Sorry Patrick, we know you've pulled off a few fights and maybe deserve a title shot...but ya know, Anderson Silva is our champ and we really don't believe you have a chance in hell." I would say, "Beat someone good." Okami, Franklin, etc. Then he gets a title shot. But he wouldn't beat any of those guys, so they just throw him in there against Silva to get killed. I'm just not impressed by it. It's not Anderson Silva's fault that there aren't many great middleweights right now in the UFC, but that's just the same as saying that it's not Fedor's fault that he hasn't been able to fight the other top heavyweights. I guess I really don't see what the point is of giving Patrick Cote a title shot. Personally, I don't think he deserves one. Everyone is complaining about Fedor fighting guys like Hong Man Choi, but really, what's the difference? They knew Fedor would beat Choi and they know that Silva will beat Cote. I just don't see a difference at all. And now that Silva is making himself availble to 205, he also gets new, fresh opponents. Chuck, Rampage (possibly), Griffin, Wandy, Machida, etc. I'm excited to see how Silva does against a quality LHW. |
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DWright
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Post by DWright on Jul 28, 2008 1:15:54 GMT -5
Well that's not really his fault. You can't keep denying guys that win the chance to at least fight for the belt. I mean, what do you say to Patrick Cote? "Sorry Patrick, we know you've pulled off a few fights and maybe deserve a title shot...but ya know, Anderson Silva is our champ and we really don't believe you have a chance in hell." I would say, "Beat someone good." Okami, Franklin, etc. Then he gets a title shot. But he wouldn't beat any of those guys, so they just throw him in there against Silva to get killed. I'm just not impressed by it. It's not Anderson Silva's fault that there aren't many great middleweights right now in the UFC, but that's just the same as saying that it's not Fedor's fault that he hasn't been able to fight the other top heavyweights. I guess I really don't see what the point is of giving Patrick Cote a title shot. Personally, I don't think he deserves one. Everyone is complaining about Fedor fighting guys like Hong Man Choi, but really, what's the difference? They knew Fedor would beat Choi and they know that Silva will beat Cote. I just don't see a difference at all. And now that Silva is making himself availble to 205, he also gets new, fresh opponents. Chuck, Rampage (possibly), Griffin, Wandy, Machida, etc. I'm excited to see how Silva does against a quality LHW. I still don't see Choi as a fighter. No one in their right mind thinks he had a shot in hell against Fedor. I guess some people feel Cote has that "punchers" shot. Plus, Cote is a true athlete...Choi was just...big. |
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Post by Codesters on Jul 28, 2008 9:56:56 GMT -5
I'm not trying to argue, just debate really. Personally, I'm not a fan of either of these guys. I mean, I don't dislike them, but neither are on my top 10 favorites. Hell, I want to see AA submit Fedor and Cote knock out Silva. Then everyone has to be quiet as the new king of MMA would be... He's a very emotional man. |
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 28, 2008 11:26:51 GMT -5
I still don't see Choi as a fighter. No one in their right mind thinks he had a shot in hell against Fedor. I guess some people feel Cote has that "punchers" shot. Plus, Cote is a true athlete...Choi was just...big. Does anyone really, in their right mind, think that Patrick Cote is going to beat Anderson Silva? If Patrick Cote has a "puncher's chance" against Anderson Silva, then Hong Man Choi had a "kickboxer's chance" against Fedor. Choi actually landed a few good shots on Fedor AND (temporarily) avoided being submitted. If Choi wasn't fighting THE BEST HEAVYWEIGHT IN THE WORLD, he might have had a chance against someone else. Who knows? I'd like to see him fight someone with a little bit closer to his experience. Regardless... Patrick Cote isn't beating Anderson Silva. I think he has as good of a chance against Silva as Choi did against Fedor. |
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Post by Boquest on Jul 28, 2008 14:06:34 GMT -5
Here I'll finally put the P4P argument to complete rest. Fedor Emelianenko lost to Tsuyoshi Kohsaka Tsuyoshi Kohsaka lost to Bas Rutten Bas Rutten lost to Ken Shamrock Ken Shamrock lost to Dan Severn Dan Severn lost to James Thompson James Thompson lost to KimboKimbo > Fedor. Anderson Silva lost to Ryo Chonan Chonan lost to Dan Henderson Henderson lost to Wanderlei Silva Silva lost to Vitor Belfort Vitor Belfort lost to Kazushi Sakuraba Sakuraba lost to Kimo Kimo lost to Paul Varelans Paul Varelans lost to Tank Abbott Tank lost to KimboKimbo > Anderson Silva. Facts are facts, Kimbo is P4P the best in the world.  . |
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DWright
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Post by DWright on Jul 28, 2008 14:12:02 GMT -5
Here I'll finally put the P4P argument to complete rest. Fedor Emelianenko lost to Tsuyoshi Kohsaka Tsuyoshi Kohsaka lost to Bas Rutten Bas Rutten lost to Ken Shamrock Ken Shamrock lost to Dan Severn Dan Severn lost to James Thompson James Thompson lost to KimboKimbo > Fedor. Anderson Silva lost to Ryo Chonan Chonan lost to Dan Henderson Henderson lost to Wanderlei Silva Silva lost to Vitor Belfort Vitor Belfort lost to Kazushi Sakuraba Sakuraba lost to Kimo Kimo lost to Paul Varelans Paul Varelans lost to Tank Abbott Tank lost to KimboKimbo > Anderson Silva. Facts are facts, Kimbo is P4P the best in the world. . But the real question is... Were any of them in a movie with Kevin Bacon? |
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PdW2kX
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Post by PdW2kX on Jul 28, 2008 14:52:40 GMT -5
I've now been convinced.
Kimbo is easily P4P King!!!!!!!!
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 28, 2008 15:32:38 GMT -5
Fedor Emelianenko lost to Tsuyoshi Kohsaka No he didn't.  |
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Post by moogie101 on Jul 28, 2008 15:57:52 GMT -5
Fedor Emelianenko lost to Tsuyoshi Kohsaka No he didn't. I think you'll find he did, TK is the only man to hold a win over fedor. It was a looping punch & TK accidentally caught fedor with his elbow bursting him open & so Fedor lost on cuts. This was in RINGS & elbows were ilegal, however the loss was never changed. |
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 28, 2008 16:26:33 GMT -5
I think you'll find he did, TK is the only man to hold a win over fedor. It was a looping punch & TK accidentally caught fedor with his elbow bursting him open & so Fedor lost on cuts. This was in RINGS & elbows were ilegal, however the loss was never changed. I've seen the fight. The rules clearly stated no elbows, yet an elbow is how Kohsaka cut him open. Therefore, I will never count that as a loss. Especially given that Fedor stomped the hell out him in their next fight. There is absolutely no question that the fight should have been a no contest. Anyone who actually knows anything about MMA doesn't count it as a loss - that's how bad the decision was. Calling that a loss is just trash. [/quote] The other thing about that loss that some people don't realize (because just seeing the fight on YouTube doesn't give you the back story) is that was Fedor's second fight of the night, because it was a tournament, and that cut was opened by Ricardo Arona in Fedor's first fight that night. Not only did Kohsaka open the cut with an illegal elbow seconds into the fight, but it wasn't even a fresh cut... he was just attacking a cut Arona had already opened. And he was attacking it with his elbow. |
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Post by moogie101 on Jul 29, 2008 3:26:35 GMT -5
I think you'll find he did, TK is the only man to hold a win over fedor. It was a looping punch & TK accidentally caught fedor with his elbow bursting him open & so Fedor lost on cuts. This was in RINGS & elbows were ilegal, however the loss was never changed. I've seen the fight. The rules clearly stated no elbows, yet an elbow is how Kohsaka cut him open. Therefore, I will never count that as a loss. Especially given that Fedor stomped the hell out him in their next fight. There is absolutely no question that the fight should have been a no contest. Anyone who actually knows anything about MMA doesn't count it as a loss - that's how bad the decision was. Calling that a loss is just trash. I'm not arguing it was a BS call, but it still counts as a loss. A lot of qustionable decisions, stoppages etc but unless overturned they still count. |
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Fury
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Post by Fury on Jul 29, 2008 3:37:01 GMT -5
I think you'll find he did, TK is the only man to hold a win over fedor. It was a looping punch & TK accidentally caught fedor with his elbow bursting him open & so Fedor lost on cuts. This was in RINGS & elbows were ilegal, however the loss was never changed. I've seen the fight. The rules clearly stated no elbows, yet an elbow is how Kohsaka cut him open. Therefore, I will never count that as a loss. Especially given that Fedor stomped the hell out him in their next fight. There is absolutely no question that the fight should have been a no contest. Anyone who actually knows anything about MMA doesn't count it as a loss - that's how bad the decision was. Calling that a loss is just trash. If Fedor had 3 or 4 losses to his name then people would just brush that loss aside and move on, it's only because he's undefeated that people "don't count" it as a loss. Now I'm not making an argument that it wasn't bullshit, but when the decision is final a loss is a loss. |
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Johnny Lawrence - Cobra Kai
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Post by Johnny Lawrence - Cobra Kai on Jul 29, 2008 8:25:47 GMT -5
The other thing about that loss that some people don't realize (because just seeing the fight on YouTube doesn't give you the back story) is that was Fedor's second fight of the night, because it was a tournament, and that cut was opened by Ricardo Arona in Fedor's first fight that night. Not only did Kohsaka open the cut with an illegal elbow seconds into the fight, but it wasn't even a fresh cut... he was just attacking a cut Arona had already opened.
And he was attacking it with his elbow.
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