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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 9:37:17 GMT -5
I know we talk a lot of Shawn being a primadonna and whining when he didn't get his way, but Bret was just as bad, if not worse, during this time. Cornette even said he refused to drop the belt in Canada, then when passed the idea of dropping the belt in Detroit, he came back and said he wouldn't lose to Michaels at all. The Screwjob was bound to happen because neither party could possibly lose. It'd hurt the WWF substantially if a) the guy who's leaving, the new "WcW talent" beats the WWF talent, and b) pretty boy Shawn doesn't get his way. But Bret losing clean is a scenario that while it's passed through my mind, I cannot fathom that going down in any way, shape or form. He just wouldn't let Shawn or Vince have their way, and he truly believed he was on a pedestal above any other wrestling talent at that time. While one may argue it's a dirty and unprofessional way to get a guy to drop the belt, I'd argue it's more unprofessional for the guy to not honor his contract (he didn't have creative control right? Meaning anything he's told to do he has to do) in its last few days and act like a whiny crybaby, "take-my-ball-and-go-home" primadonna, along with the usual whiny crybaby, "take-my-ball-and-go-home" primadonna that's known for his antics. All of this is bollocks. Bret didn't want to put Shawn over, period. And I can certainly understand why. Shawn was widely despised and outright told Bret that he would never put him over (after already faking an injury to avoid putting him over at WM13) in addition to essentially telling Bret that he would not make sure he was safe when working with him. This was the first and ONLY time that Bret ever refused to job. Bret was the kind of guy who didn't even want to win a tribute match for his brother (Dean). Unlike Shawn who refused to put people over every other week. Bret didn't even necessarily want to beat Shawn, they'd all agreed to a DQ, and in Bret's mind he was going to put someone who wasn't a disrespectful dick over. Bret said he'd put Shamrock, Austin or anyone over on Raw the next night after Survivor Series (he couldn't have lost the belt before then as they'd promoted SS with him as Champ). Bret was also well within his legal rights to refuse to put Shawn over. As he had creative control over his contract for the last 60 days, meaning he could refuse to put over anyone that Vince asked him to. He'd also fullfilled all of his contract dates, and had no legal obligation to appear at the Survivor Series. Hell if I was Bret, with how awkward Vince and Shawn were being I'd have just said " you", walked out as the champ and let them do whatever while I went to WCW. F*ck them for doing this and f*ck Bret for leaving. They all should have grown up and worked something out. Shame on them all. Bret was in the prime of his career and belonged in WWF. This never should have happened and all parties involved are to blame. Childish. Bret didn't have much choice but to leave. He wanted to stay, he agreed to a contract that payed him the same over 20 years that he would have got for 2 years in WCW. That's commitment. Unfortunately we live in a world where the Bret Hart's get shat on, and the Shawn Michaels' are put up on a pedistal. Vince was just an idiot for letting his #1 draw (at that time) go to the rival company. He'd have been far better off letting his boy toy go.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 10:39:13 GMT -5
I fully agree about Vince being an idiot to let Bret go. However, the two should have came to some sort of deal where maybe Bret got paid less money but got an extra perk where he worked less dates or something.
Vince saying "Sorry Bret but I can't afford you so just go to WCW" just seems so extreme and Bret actually accepting that and leaving is bizarre too.
Anybody else find it weird how Vince screwed Bret because he was so paranoid about Bret showing up on Nitro with the WWF title but at the same time had no problem just letting him go without even trying to negotiate a new contract? It just doesn't make any sense.
It would be like Vince telling Cena to join TNA because he can't afford him anymore and then suddenly screwing him on the way out because he doesn't trust him...what the hell did Bret do to make Vince not trust him?
Weird stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 12:19:00 GMT -5
I know we talk a lot of Shawn being a primadonna and whining when he didn't get his way, but Bret was just as bad, if not worse, during this time. Cornette even said he refused to drop the belt in Canada, then when passed the idea of dropping the belt in Detroit, he came back and said he wouldn't lose to Michaels at all. The Screwjob was bound to happen because neither party could possibly lose. It'd hurt the WWF substantially if a) the guy who's leaving, the new "WcW talent" beats the WWF talent, and b) pretty boy Shawn doesn't get his way. But Bret losing clean is a scenario that while it's passed through my mind, I cannot fathom that going down in any way, shape or form. He just wouldn't let Shawn or Vince have their way, and he truly believed he was on a pedestal above any other wrestling talent at that time. While one may argue it's a dirty and unprofessional way to get a guy to drop the belt, I'd argue it's more unprofessional for the guy to not honor his contract (he didn't have creative control right? Meaning anything he's told to do he has to do) in its last few days and act like a whiny crybaby, "take-my-ball-and-go-home" primadonna, along with the usual whiny crybaby, "take-my-ball-and-go-home" primadonna that's known for his antics. All of this is bollocks. Bret didn't want to put Shawn over, period. And I can certainly understand why. Shawn was widely despised and outright told Bret that he would never put him over (after already faking an injury to avoid putting him over at WM13) in addition to essentially telling Bret that he would not make sure he was safe when working with him. This was the first and ONLY time that Bret ever refused to job. Bret was the kind of guy who didn't even want to win a tribute match for his brother (Dean). Unlike Shawn who refused to put people over every other week. Bret didn't even necessarily want to beat Shawn, they'd all agreed to a DQ, and in Bret's mind he was going to put someone who wasn't a disrespectful dick over. Bret said he'd put Shamrock, Austin or anyone over on Raw the next night after Survivor Series (he couldn't have lost the belt before then as they'd promoted SS with him as Champ). Bret was also well within his legal rights to refuse to put Shawn over. As he had creative control over his contract for the last 60 days, meaning he could refuse to put over anyone that Vince asked him to. He'd also fullfilled all of his contract dates, and had no legal obligation to appear at the Survivor Series. Hell if I was Bret, with how awkward Vince and Shawn were being I'd have just said " you", walked out as the champ and let them do whatever while I went to WCW. F*ck them for doing this and f*ck Bret for leaving. They all should have grown up and worked something out. Shame on them all. Bret was in the prime of his career and belonged in WWF. This never should have happened and all parties involved are to blame. Childish. Bret didn't have much choice but to leave. He wanted to stay, he agreed to a contract that payed him the same over 20 years that he would have got for 2 years in WCW. That's commitment. Unfortunately we live in a world where the Bret Hart's get shat on, and the Shawn Michaels' are put up on a pedistal. Vince was just an idiot for letting his #1 draw (at that time) go to the rival company. He'd have been far better off letting his boy toy go. do not call other peoples opinions bollocks...please your way too touchy about Bret hart AF.simply say you don't agree and move on.cant fault your reasoning but the manner in which you started that post just isn't on.
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Post by mikey1974 on Nov 20, 2013 12:26:43 GMT -5
I think it was more influence from HBK and HHH in Vince's ear than anything else at that point. for whatever reason,and rumors/theories abound on it, Vince was fro all intents and purposes in love with Shawn Michaels,and he was,literally,having meetings since 1994 with Shawn and the rest of the Cliq(when they were there) on a weekly basis to discuss the company and the wrestlers. then,by 1997 Shawn nd hunter were doing the booking! so Shawn had,major,MAJOR influence with Vince and his inner circle.Shawn also openly talked about Bret "not drawing a dime" ,and not being "the man" in the company when he was in his 5th Championship reign. so i have no doubt - no doubt at all - Shawn and,maybe to a lesser extent,Hunter got in Vince's ear and convinced him Bret wasn't worth the contract he was signed to.
another thing to remember - Vince was,more or less,resigned to the fact that Hart was going to retain the Title at Survivor Series.he wasn't happy about it,but Vince said Bret had the creative control clause and he didn't want to lose in Canada on his way out to Shawn .SHAWN was the one who,in one of these weekly meetings, said they would just have to take the Belt from him then,and do a quick count or a quick submission,or Shawn would just push all his weight on him to keep his shoulders down,or whatever it took to get the Title off Bret. Vince is no saint,and he obviously went along with it,but HBK was the one who wanted to do the Screwjob,when everyone else was resigned to Bret just forfeiting the title or losing to someone else.
the Belt thing was simple - Alundra Blaze/Madusa. he was so paranoid about this happening again.also of note - Hunter,at the same Screwjob meeting, brought it up and said they couldn't afford to have that happen with the WWF Championship Belt.so Hunter's pressing of the issue,and that it could happen,no doubt influenced Bret too.
honestly,I am a Shawn Michaels and Triple h fan. but,Christ,they were 2 real scumbag pricks back then! changing people's careers,putting themselves on top,and screwing people. and they wonder why the Cliq had such a bad reputation!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 12:31:46 GMT -5
Mikey makes some good points and I must agree.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Nov 20, 2013 12:42:07 GMT -5
I had an account on here like a year ago, and I stated once how I felt that Bret only signed a one year deal when he came back, and it was set to expire in November.
What I don't get it, is Vince had to take the belt off Bret at Survivor Series cause he didn't want Bret showing up on Nitro with the belt like Alundra did with the Women's Title.
So my question is.... why didn't Bret show up the next night on Nitro??
Bret also says how he could have dropped the belt the next night after S. Series, so that must mean Bret was still under contract. He also said in his book he could have did it at the December ppv.
I know many people want to believe the Montreal Screw Job was indeed real. But part of me thinks it may be a work.
If it is a work, then it's the greatest work in the history of pro wrestling.
It made Bret Hart loved again by everyone, it created the evil Mr. McMahon character, it got HBK over as a huge heel, and it brought ratings back to the WWE for Monday Night Raw.
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Post by mikey1974 on Nov 20, 2013 13:02:33 GMT -5
yeah,Bret's contract wasn't up at SS. he said when talking to Vince backstage before the event,that they still had "a few more weeks" to figure out what they wanted to do with the Title situation.I believe he didn't appear on Nitro the next night because his departure date hadn't come up yet,so he was technically still a WWF employee.that's another reason why Bret didn't want to drop it to HBK,cause he still had some time left in the WWF,and they could figure out a storyline to drop it to someone else.he didn't actually officially start with WCW until December 14th.
I mean, holy sh*t! IF he could've appeared at Nitro,you know damn well Bischoff would've spared no expense,whatever it took,to get him on the concorde down to wherever Nitro was! the ratings would've been frigging insane!
also another example of the cliq needing to be on top. they had almost a month between SS and Bret's WCW start date. PLENTY of time to make a quick storyline with Bret vs someone else to drop it to. but it just HAD to be Shawn that night,likely because HBK knew it would be the last time he would be in the ring with Bret (Bret said once how he wished he could've fought someone else at the PPV,but all the promotion and hype for it centered on that match,so he wasn't going to screw the fans out of it).
as far as the Belt thing,yeah,again,there was NO way he was showing up at Nitro the next night with the Belt. but Shawn and hunter put it in Vince's mind that Bischoff wouldn't be above offering Bret an extra $500,000 to skip out early and bring the Belt with him. so they played on the already existing paranoia in the back of Vince's mind to get him to agree to screw Bret out of the Title and put it on HBK.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 13:26:23 GMT -5
The belt thing is crap on vinces part lads....wcw would never have allowed it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 14:46:45 GMT -5
The belt thing is crap on vinces part lads....wcw would never have allowed it. Not to mention Bret never would've done it...for ANY amount of money. I wish everyone had their heads together and Bret would've been able to come to terms after the screwjob. Could you imagine how hot the feud would be if everyone expected Bret to show up on Nitro but he comes back to Raw a few weeks after Survivor Series and attacks Vince and/or DX. That would have been amazing. The ultimate swerve. It would have made the best out of a bad situation also. Bret never should have went to WCW. Period. If that meant taking a paycut then so be it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 14:50:39 GMT -5
Bischoff has stated MANY times, that even if Bret had wanted to he never would have allowed it. They were still feeling the sting of the women's title stunt.
Had Vince not been so in love with Shawn, I don't think there even would have been much of a problem. Why not just let Bret drop it to Shamrock the next night on Raw? Then have Shawn defeat him at the next PPV, it really wouldn't have caused Vince to lose anything. If anything, he would have had himself a new star made.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 14:54:16 GMT -5
I feel Bret wanting to just hand over the title on Raw the next night would have been awful and not an option.
However, I also respect Bret's decision about not wanting to drop the belt to Shawn who stated to Bret he wouldn't do the same for him.
Bret dropped the belt to Bob Backlund for goodness sake. This was more about the hatred between Bret and Shawn than anything else.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Nov 20, 2013 17:42:30 GMT -5
I think the most heartbreaking problem with Survivor Series that year was that they had teams of 4 and yet, Bret, Anvil, Owen and Davey weren't a team.
Could you imagine Bret, Owen, Davey and Anvil vs. HBK, HHH, Billy and Road Dogg at that time period. Sure, the Outlaws weren't in DX yet, but they were seen as prospects for DX by HBK.
Though that would have hurt Austin, but then I am not entirely sure how healthy Austin was during that time. I am pretty sure he came back way too fast after getting dropped on his head at SummerSlam.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 18:58:53 GMT -5
I feel Bret wanting to just hand over the title on Raw the next night would have been awful and not an option. . absolutely-it was the same as dropping it in the bin on Nitro.......it was like saying: "heres your piece of sh*t title back.....Im off down South where the money is at" it was TOTALLY not an option to vacate the title in this manner.he HAD to lose it in the ring and IMO it should have been to Undertaker. Summerslam 97 lent itself to this scenario handily.
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Post by mikey1974 on Nov 20, 2013 19:08:35 GMT -5
Bret claimed in his book that Vince kept going back and forth about being able to pay him - first he couldn't,then he could,then he wasn't sure again,then he was supposed to "sell off property" to afford the contract. Then,on October 24th,Vince told Bret in the locker room not to worry,he now had the money to pay him.so as far as late-October,it was still up in the air as to whether Bret would stay or not,so that's probably why he didn't take the Belt off of him,cause they had been building to Bret vs Shawn since April.
part of me thinks,and this is fully just speculation on my part,that Vince was waiting to see if the Tyson deal could be worked out,hence the back and forth of "I can't pay you" to "I can pay you", keeping Bret in purgatory until finally it was clear Tyson would be on board,and Vince wanted to give Bret's money to him.cause only about a month after the Screwjob,Vince was on the air talking about the deal he was working on.
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Post by mikey1974 on Nov 20, 2013 19:10:00 GMT -5
I feel Bret wanting to just hand over the title on Raw the next night would have been awful and not an option. . it was TOTALLY not an option to vacate the title in this manner.he HAD to lose it in the ring and IMO it should have been to Undertaker. Summerslam 97 lent itself to this scenario handily. definitely! they never had a televised rematch in America or Canada.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Nov 20, 2013 21:45:08 GMT -5
it was TOTALLY not an option to vacate the title in this manner.he HAD to lose it in the ring and IMO it should have been to Undertaker. Summerslam 97 lent itself to this scenario handily. definitely! they never had a televised rematch in America or Canada.Actually they did have a televised rematch in Canada. For some reason, Canada got the rights to see One Night Only from the UK, but the USA didn't. I remember watching it at a friends house. Why the USA never got to see that PPV is definitely strange.
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Captain McKay
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Post by Captain McKay on Nov 21, 2013 1:39:06 GMT -5
I maintain that there should have been a brainstorm session that weekend and they could have come up with a triple-threat. According to previous threads on the subject, WWF had already been experimenting with three-way matches by then. Make it Bret, Shawn, and Undertaker at Survivor Series. That way, Undertaker and Shawn's feud wouldn't come to an abrupt end after HIAC, and that'd lend for either of two options happening -
1.) Undertaker could tombstone Bret and win at Survivor Series, then have Shawn beat Undertaker the next night on Raw. Too sudden? They did the same thing with Bret and Sid in February 1997, so they'd likely be okay with doing it again. Or, if that's too much for Bret's creative control clause,
2.) Shawn could defeat Undertaker for the 3-count, maintaining Bret's contractual obligation not to actually "job" the match. The title changes, and Bret doesn't go out looking weak. Even have Kane interfere, since it's November 1997 and Kane costing Undertaker a title win would go over HUGE after his debut. Hence leading directly into Kane/Undertaker for WMXIV, as well as giving HBK the belt as planned.
Even on a day-of wavelength, there WERE ways around all this, but none of them were thought through fully.
Also, I'm with Cornette on his shoot where he said that if Shawn tried to forcefully pin Bret for three, Bret would have kicked out at 2 and then beat the hell out of Shawn on live national TV. I don't think that was ever an option, nor should it have been for the safety of everyone involved. Could have led to a legit shoot between Michaels/HHH against Bret, Owen, Bulldog, and Anvil...not a good scenario for DX or WWF.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2013 7:53:31 GMT -5
Agreed with Haggar.
The triple threat idea would have been great and gotten the title off Bret while still protecting him on the way out.
Plus, Undertaker wasn't even booked at Survivor Series for whatever reason.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2013 7:55:18 GMT -5
yes Haggar that was a great idea!!
it would've worked too.....excellently.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Nov 21, 2013 10:21:05 GMT -5
Having Undertaker win at Badd Blood in the HIAC to go on and beat Bret at Survivor Series would have been great.
Then as Haggar said, have HBK beat Taker the following night, and have Kane debut there and be the cause to why HBK beat Taker for the WWF Title.
The following week Shamrock comes down and gets in HBK's face, saying that's not how you properly win a Title. And bam, DX PPV main event is on.
Taker takes time off and comes back the night after the DX PPV to set up the Rumble casket match with HBK.
That's spot on. Now let's find a time machine, all of us go back in time together, approach Bret, Vince and Shawn and give them these ideas haha
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