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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Jul 9, 2014 5:30:37 GMT -5
I'm definitely rooting Ger-Hol and Arg-Bra for the last 2 games. 2 huge footballing rivalries to culminate one of the best spam ever.
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Post by 0,Y on Jul 9, 2014 5:45:02 GMT -5
Jesus Christ, what a match! I was at a bar with about 300 other people and it was insane. Nobody could believe their eyes what was happening. I'm so happy for Miro Klose It was hilarious really. Hopefully Holland wins this evening so we can get Brazil/Argentina and Germany/Holland.
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Post by Brunt's Left Foot on Jul 9, 2014 7:30:50 GMT -5
As much as Argentina/Brazil and Holland/Germany would be great, I think Argentina will get past the Dutch tonight.
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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Jul 9, 2014 8:02:00 GMT -5
The game last night was the most tweeted about sporting event in history. I wonder if the final will edge it? Probably not due to the nature of the scoreline.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 15:52:59 GMT -5
Solid back and forth match so far, both teams have showed up offensively. I think it may just end up going to penalties.
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Post by Markw on Jul 9, 2014 17:47:39 GMT -5
Glad Argentina got through, hope they go on and win it.
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Post by Dan on Jul 9, 2014 17:49:00 GMT -5
Lionel Messi in a World Cup Final at the Maracana. How iconic if Pele were to hand him the trophy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 17:49:20 GMT -5
Yeah they really proved to be the better team even without Di Maria. Predicting this final is going to be incredibly difficult.
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Post by JHTB® on Jul 9, 2014 17:49:53 GMT -5
YES!!!! AREGENTINA FOR WORLD CUP!!!!!!
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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Jul 9, 2014 18:00:57 GMT -5
Argentina will be one of the worst teams to win it if they triumph on Sunday. 1-0 AET 1-0 0-0 (P) are their 3 knockout results, and they play bloody boring football in comparison to most other teams at the tournament. I think they've scored 7 in all their games combined whereas Germany have scored about 18 I think.
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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Jul 9, 2014 18:02:32 GMT -5
Lionel Messi in a World Cup Final at the Maracana. How iconic if Pele were to hand him the trophy. They'd probably just get someone else to hand it over tbh. Regardless of what happens I maintain that World Cups are a far inferior way of judging a top class player than club competitions. Would def be iconic though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 18:04:32 GMT -5
Argentina will be one of the worst teams to win it if they triumph on Sunday. 1-0 AET 1-0 0-0 (P) are their 3 knockout results, and they play bloody boring football in comparison to most other teams at the tournament. I think they've scored 7 in all their games combined whereas Germany have scored about 18 I think. I don't understand this logic, considering the Netherlands has been arguably the most dynamic attacking squad of this tournament..
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AV1
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jun 15, 2008 9:04:59 GMT -5
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Post by AV1 on Jul 9, 2014 18:10:41 GMT -5
Argentina will be one of the worst teams to win it if they triumph on Sunday. 1-0 AET 1-0 0-0 (P) are their 3 knockout results, and they play bloody boring football in comparison to most other teams at the tournament. I think they've scored 7 in all their games combined whereas Germany have scored about 18 I think. You could argue The Netherlands would be one of the worst had they went on to win it. Apart from the game against Spain, where Spain fell apart, they haven't been that great either. Not really been a standout team at this tournament. Even Germany. Although they destroyed Brazil they didn't look great against France or Algeria.
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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Jul 9, 2014 18:17:23 GMT -5
Argentina will be one of the worst teams to win it if they triumph on Sunday. 1-0 AET 1-0 0-0 (P) are their 3 knockout results, and they play bloody boring football in comparison to most other teams at the tournament. I think they've scored 7 in all their games combined whereas Germany have scored about 18 I think. I don't understand this logic, considering the Netherlands has been arguably the most dynamic attacking squad of this tournament.. My larger point is that winning World Cups has a huge slice of luck on two levels. The first level is that, as a cup competition, teams can get lucky with the draw. Argentina had the easiest group, probably the third or fourth-easiest last 16 team, the 2nd easiest last 8 team and the easiest team in the last 4 (the bookies unanimously had Holland as 4th favourites before the semis). By comparison Germany had probably the toughest group with 3 teams around the level of Argentina's last 8 opponents (Belgium), an admittedly relatively easy last 16 game against the (slightly underrated but still not great) Algerians, a tough last 8 match against a France team many fancied and a semi-final against Brazil who were on home soil (and lets not forget before kick off the two teams were roughly 50-50 in odds to go through). In their run Germany have played some fantastic football whilst obliterating both Portugal and Brazil, scoring the most goals in the tournament in the process. By comparison Argentina have laboured through their run failing to inspire at any point through either class or excitement, with every single player playing below the standard we usually come to expect of them. Therefore, should Argentina lift the trophy they will be one of the worst teams ever to do so. The second level relates more to the idea that great players should not be judged on the World Cup. This is because what country you are born in is 100% random, whereas great players will always end up at great clubs competing for honours if they are good enough. Look at the great players never to step foot on the World Cup stage: Di Stefano, Best, Giggs, Bale etc... all could have easily won a World Cup if they played for a major team. Even now, looking at Ronaldo vs. Messi in 2014, Ronaldo has a much much weaker team around him. Argentina by comparison have several world class players (they have failed to perform but that doesn't mean they weren't world class to begin with) and so Messi's chances of winning the trophy are boosted solely through luck. By comparison, their battles at club level are on a far more even footing due to both of their teams being at the pinnacle of footballing excellence. In short, Argentina have been mediocre at best and Messi's legacy should not be significantly shifted one way or the other by what happens on Sunday.
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Post by Dan on Jul 9, 2014 18:17:26 GMT -5
Argentina will be one of the worst teams to win it if they triumph on Sunday. 1-0 AET 1-0 0-0 (P) are their 3 knockout results, and they play bloody boring football in comparison to most other teams at the tournament. I think they've scored 7 in all their games combined whereas Germany have scored about 18 I think. True, but nobody will remember the Groups or the Second Round. I think we all thought Argies would be so dynamic and quick this Tournament. But, they're a pretty disconnected and imbalanced Team so they've done well to adjust and grind out the Results the way they have. Belgium with Hazard, Kompany, Lukaku, Courtois etc are a decent side. Holland dismantled the World Champions and done well this Tournament, and Germany are just about as good a Side as you will see, so if they do win it it will take something. Tonight's Game was definitely one where both Sides were more worried about conceding and hoping to nick a goal, as expected. Messi didn't want the ball at all tonight either, had a shocking Game. However, you need a bit of luck on the way, and Pens was inevitable. Di Maria was a big miss for Argentina tonight, they lacked that energy and link up between midfield and the front line. Lionel Messi in a World Cup Final at the Maracana. How iconic if Pele were to hand him the trophy. They'd probably just get someone else to hand it over tbh. Regardless of what happens I maintain that World Cups are a far inferior way of judging a top class player than club competitions. Would def be iconic though. It seems to be the only thing that Messi is judged on compared to Maradona and Pele in that he hasn't won a World Cup. He carried them through the Groups single handedly, and if they were to overcome Holland and Germany it would be some achievement.
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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Jul 9, 2014 18:18:04 GMT -5
Argentina will be one of the worst teams to win it if they triumph on Sunday. 1-0 AET 1-0 0-0 (P) are their 3 knockout results, and they play bloody boring football in comparison to most other teams at the tournament. I think they've scored 7 in all their games combined whereas Germany have scored about 18 I think. You could argue The Netherlands would be one of the worst had they went on to win it. Apart from the game against Spain, where Spain fell apart, they haven't been that great either. Not really been a standout team at this tournament. Even Germany. Although they destroyed Brazil they didn't look great against France or Algeria. At least they won all 3 games in one of the toughest groups and humiliated the world champions in the process.
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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Jul 9, 2014 18:21:12 GMT -5
Argentina will be one of the worst teams to win it if they triumph on Sunday. 1-0 AET 1-0 0-0 (P) are their 3 knockout results, and they play bloody boring football in comparison to most other teams at the tournament. I think they've scored 7 in all their games combined whereas Germany have scored about 18 I think. True, but nobody will remember the Groups or the Second Round. I think we all thought Argies would be so dynamic and quick this Tournament. But, they're a pretty disconnected and imbalanced Team so they've done well to adjust and grind out the Results the way they have. Belgium with Hazard, Kompany, Lukaku, Courtois etc are a decent side. Holland dismantled the World Champions and done well this Tournament, and Germany are just about as good a Side as you will see, so if they do win it it will take something. Tonight's Game was definitely one where both Sides were more worried about conceding and hoping to nick a goal, as expected. Messi didn't want the ball at all tonight either, had a shocking Game. However, you need a bit of luck on the way, and Pens was inevitable. Di Maria was a big miss for Argentina tonight, they lacked that energy and link up between midfield and the front line. They'd probably just get someone else to hand it over tbh. Regardless of what happens I maintain that World Cups are a far inferior way of judging a top class player than club competitions. Would def be iconic though. Yeah I'm with you on the verdict that World Cups aren't what they used to be. However, it seems to be the only thing that Messi is judged on compared to Maradona and Pele in that he hasn't won a World Cup. He carried them through the Groups single handedly, and if they were to overcome Holland and Germany it would be some achievement. I think we'll always remember Spain's humiliation even though Brazil's outshone it. Its true I expected far more from Argentina this tournament, on paper they definitely have at least the best attack out of all 32 teams, yet they've scored so few. Messi has been ok overall - poor to average performances punctuated by vital goals - but below the standards we expect from him and other top-level players. Belgium again were decent on paper but failed to ever look like a serious threat. I personally would've had Messi in the same bracket as those two beforehand, and will have him in exactly the same position after. Same goes for Cristiano Ronaldo. I don't think you need to win a World Cup to get into that top tier - Puskas and Di Stefano never did yet you'd be hard pressed to find someone not putting them in their top ten all time greats. And honestly once it gets to that level its all so subjective. What if Pele played in Europe? What if Puskas wasn't injured for that WC final? etc. etc. I think I've got to a stage where I see deeming someone the 'greatest ever' as rather futile, and instead choose to focus on this club of 10-15 players who were all pretty much as good as each other.
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Post by Dan on Jul 9, 2014 18:30:50 GMT -5
I don't understand this logic, considering the Netherlands has been arguably the most dynamic attacking squad of this tournament.. My larger point is that winning World Cups has a huge slice of luck on two levels. The first level is that, as a cup competition, teams can get lucky with the draw. Argentina had the easiest group, probably the third or fourth-easiest last 16 team, the 2nd easiest last 8 team and the easiest team in the last 4 (the bookies unanimously had Holland as 4th favourites before the semis). By comparison Germany had probably the toughest group with 3 teams around the level of Argentina's last 8 opponents (Belgium), an admittedly relatively easy last 16 game against the (slightly underrated but still not great) Algerians, a tough last 8 match against a France team many fancied and a semi-final against Brazil who were on home soil (and lets not forget before kick off the two teams were roughly 50-50 in odds to go through). In their run Germany have played some fantastic football whilst obliterating both Portugal and Brazil, scoring the most goals in the tournament in the process. By comparison Argentina have laboured through their run failing to inspire at any point through either class or excitement, with every single player playing below the standard we usually come to expect of them. Therefore, should Argentina lift the trophy they will be one of the worst teams ever to do so. The second level relates more to the idea that great players should not be judged on the World Cup. This is because what country you are born in is 100% random, whereas great players will always end up at great clubs competing for honours if they are good enough. Look at the great players never to step foot on the World Cup stage: Di Stefano, Best, Giggs, Bale etc... all could have easily won a World Cup if they played for a major team. Even now, looking at Ronaldo vs. Messi in 2014, Ronaldo has a much much weaker team around him. Argentina by comparison have several world class players (they have failed to perform but that doesn't mean they weren't world class to begin with) and so Messi's chances of winning the trophy are boosted solely through luck. By comparison, their battles at club level are on a far more even footing due to both of their teams being at the pinnacle of footballing excellence. In short, Argentina have been mediocre at best and Messi's legacy should not be significantly shifted one way or the other by what happens on Sunday. You keep saying how if Argentina win the World Cup they'll be one of the worst teams to do so, yet when it comes down to Messi he's suddenly in a great team. On paper they have some good Players, but the Team has been disconnected for the most of this Tournament. Di Maria suspended, Aguero injured, a very poor back line. You can't deny that Messi single handedly got them through the groups, then they had to tighten up and play a sensible game for the knockouts. Messi could of played for Spain, but he didn't. He's also in a different side to Barca where he's fed balls and playing on the top line. He's adapted to play deep, with less energy and make more important spaces for others, and be the architect instead of the end product. The World Cup is a long Tournament, you get some luck on the way, you have a quiet Game, the standard gets higher and the rest time gets shorter. World Cups aren't what they used to be since the evolution of the Champions League, but you need something to carry a Team all the way through. I also wouldn't say Real Madrid were weaker than Barca this year, infact they were probably the freshest, best Side in Europe this Year under Ancelotti, while Barca were burnt out, tired and figured out, either way Ronaldo had a better Season. If Messi can perform in the Final and take Argentina to a World Cup, solely getting them through the Groups, nicking it against Finalists from 2010 and a German Side made up of 7 Bayern Players, it is a great achievement. I'm sure your desire for Ronaldo to not be outshone by Messi is praying they don't though. I think Maradona and Pele are in a different bracket to the likes of Di Stefano, Cruyff, Zidane, Puskas, Ronaldo. Messi is currently in that bracket, but if he wins a World Cup, he will be up there with Pele and Maradona. Like it or not, he'll of done too many things that will stand in history.
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Post by bad guy™ on Jul 9, 2014 18:33:18 GMT -5
Damn, was pulling for Holland. LOVE Messi, but I wanted Holland to get the Cup. Meh.
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Post by bad guy™ on Jul 9, 2014 18:35:35 GMT -5
My larger point is that winning World Cups has a huge slice of luck on two levels. The first level is that, as a cup competition, teams can get lucky with the draw. Argentina had the easiest group, probably the third or fourth-easiest last 16 team, the 2nd easiest last 8 team and the easiest team in the last 4 (the bookies unanimously had Holland as 4th favourites before the semis). By comparison Germany had probably the toughest group with 3 teams around the level of Argentina's last 8 opponents (Belgium), an admittedly relatively easy last 16 game against the (slightly underrated but still not great) Algerians, a tough last 8 match against a France team many fancied and a semi-final against Brazil who were on home soil (and lets not forget before kick off the two teams were roughly 50-50 in odds to go through). In their run Germany have played some fantastic football whilst obliterating both Portugal and Brazil, scoring the most goals in the tournament in the process. By comparison Argentina have laboured through their run failing to inspire at any point through either class or excitement, with every single player playing below the standard we usually come to expect of them. Therefore, should Argentina lift the trophy they will be one of the worst teams ever to do so. The second level relates more to the idea that great players should not be judged on the World Cup. This is because what country you are born in is 100% random, whereas great players will always end up at great clubs competing for honours if they are good enough. Look at the great players never to step foot on the World Cup stage: Di Stefano, Best, Giggs, Bale etc... all could have easily won a World Cup if they played for a major team. Even now, looking at Ronaldo vs. Messi in 2014, Ronaldo has a much much weaker team around him. Argentina by comparison have several world class players (they have failed to perform but that doesn't mean they weren't world class to begin with) and so Messi's chances of winning the trophy are boosted solely through luck. By comparison, their battles at club level are on a far more even footing due to both of their teams being at the pinnacle of footballing excellence. In short, Argentina have been mediocre at best and Messi's legacy should not be significantly shifted one way or the other by what happens on Sunday. You keep saying how if Argentina win the World Cup they'll be one of the worst teams to do so, yet when it comes down to Messi he's suddenly in a great team. On paper they have some good Players, but the Team has been disconnected for the most of this Tournament. Di Maria suspended, Aguero injured, a very poor back line. You can't deny that Messi single handedly got them through the groups, then they had to tighten up and play a sensible game for the knockouts. Messi could of played for Spain, but he didn't. The World Cup is a long Tournament, you get some luck on the way, you have a quiet Game, the standard gets higher and the rest time gets shorter. World Cups aren't what they used to be since the evolution of the Champions League, but you need something to carry a Team all the way through. I also wouldn't say Real Madrid were weaker than Barca this year, infact they were probably the freshest, best Side in Europe this Year under Ancelotti, while Barca were burnt out, tired and figured out, either way Ronaldo had a better Season. If Messi can perform in the Final and take Argentina to a World Cup, solely getting them through the Groups, nicking it against Finalists from 2010 and a German Side made up of 7 Bayern Players, it is a great achievement. I'm sure your desire for Ronaldo to not be outshone by Messi is praying they don't though. Hey, soccer is like any sport. The rest of the team could suck but if you have one player who gets HOT at the right time (or Messi because he is Messi), the team can do some astronomical things.
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