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Post by JC Motors on Apr 11, 2020 16:14:49 GMT -5
I watched some of SmackDown the other day before my niece got home, and very impressed of how it is without an audience. It gives you a bare bones experience that we would never have thought to imagine. It's like having the whole show to yourself
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Apr 11, 2020 17:44:50 GMT -5
These segments aren't pro wrestling. Honestly, a lot of crap that people like about what they think is wrestling has no place in wrestling, but the whole thing has gotten away from everybody. They're interesting segments, but they're not "matches" they're something else being done by wrestlers. They're just going to be overdone and make things harder for the wrestlers to actually make money doing wrestling as it was intended. Something people can believe in and justify. You can believe and justify some pretty strange things for wrestling, but this just isn't it. While I understand your point, empty arena matches arent pro wrestling either. The very basis of pro wrestling is crowd manipulation. If theres no crowd, you dont have a wrestling match. So for the time being, I have absolutely no problem with these segements/matches being on the shows. They are entertaining and keep the shows going during these months where we have nothing to watch. Your points are valid as a viewer. I’m speaking from kayfabe. Working a crowd ain’t kayfabe, but it’s like a magic show without an audience, the work is exposed. What makes me angrier than anything is Gargano/Ciampa just ripping off spots from Edge and Orton’s Match. It’s pitiful. They had no ing reason to go to the truck besides “oh it looks cool”
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Post by FLUX '97 on Apr 11, 2020 17:47:39 GMT -5
For three seasons (we won't count Season Four because Jack Swagger killed the show) Lucha Underground proved that "cinematic wrestling" works.
Now we're seeing it done just as masterfully on a much, much grander stage.
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jking1979
Superstar
Joined on: Oct 3, 2019 20:00:02 GMT -5
Posts: 754
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Post by jking1979 on Apr 11, 2020 20:33:06 GMT -5
I believe Sting would accept this kind of match against Undertaker.
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Post by Joey Cush on Apr 11, 2020 23:49:21 GMT -5
While I understand your point, empty arena matches arent pro wrestling either. The very basis of pro wrestling is crowd manipulation. If theres no crowd, you dont have a wrestling match. So for the time being, I have absolutely no problem with these segements/matches being on the shows. They are entertaining and keep the shows going during these months where we have nothing to watch. Your points are valid as a viewer. I’m speaking from kayfabe. Working a crowd ain’t kayfabe, but it’s like a magic show without an audience, the work is exposed. What makes me angrier than anything is Gargano/Ciampa just ripping off spots from Edge and Orton’s Match. It’s pitiful. They had no ing reason to go to the truck besides “oh it looks cool” I cant speak on Gargano/Ciampa I havent seen it yet actually. Tho I will say I absolutely didnt care for Edge/Orton so theres that.
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Post by RuthlessFigs on Apr 12, 2020 0:37:03 GMT -5
I like it, i just don't want them to overdo it and kill the excitement of them.
It's like Hell in a Cell, Elimination Chamber & Money in the Bank. One a year made it cool, exciting and special... Now they're largely devalued and don't feel special anymore.
I'd only do 1, 2, maybe 3 of these a year for certain talent only. Obviously Wyatt & Taker are 2. Guys like Aleister Black & Jeff Hardy could make it work too. I'd even go as far to say Dexter Lumis in NXT, with the whole 'Undisclosed Location' and creepy gimmick he's got going on.
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Post by LK3 on Apr 12, 2020 3:08:15 GMT -5
They don’t even have to be billed as matches. A story can lead to a segment that’s done in this manner too.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Apr 12, 2020 4:50:07 GMT -5
Your points are valid as a viewer. I’m speaking from kayfabe. Working a crowd ain’t kayfabe, but it’s like a magic show without an audience, the work is exposed. What makes me angrier than anything is Gargano/Ciampa just ripping off spots from Edge and Orton’s Match. It’s pitiful. They had no ing reason to go to the truck besides “oh it looks cool” I cant speak on Gargano/Ciampa I havent seen it yet actually. Tho I will say I absolutely didnt care for Edge/Orton so theres that. Honestly I feel like if they hadn’t gone quite as long, everyone would be feeling way more more that a freaking hall of famer most of us cared about got to come about and do the impossible. It felt gritty and left everything in. Other than the few things that only happen in pro wrestling and one has to kind of accept a bit because we like our wrestlers alive, I felt it made sense excluding one or two moments that could have been go home spots at the end.
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Post by aggressiveperfectpoor on Apr 12, 2020 12:33:36 GMT -5
I loved what Ciampa & Gargano did last night. It was brutal and very well filmed. It felt like a fight. I liked the Boneyard Match. It was ridiculous, shot beautifully, but still felt like a movie fight. The Firefly Fun House I'm meh on. While it was filmed well, it wasn't really a match. And at the end of the day, this is still wrestling. Needed more of a wrestling/fight feel. I haven’t seen the nXt match yet, but you’re saying it was done like the other two? Interesting. Looking forward to it. While I don’t wholeheartedly agree with Jim Cornette’s take on these scenes, he has some good points. For one, neither WM billed ‘match’ was actually that. The Boneyard was a fight with a wrestling move or two thrown in. The brutality Taker used on Styles reminded me of Michael Myers stalking a victim at times. Had this been a scene in an actual movie it would be praised as a summer blockbuster. The FFF on night 2 was almost a psychological thriller. The hero was forced to relive failures from his past (while hitting a couple fun rumors from the dirt sheets) to break him down until the villain was finally able to take him down. Cornette said he always felt that wrestlers were better than Hollywood because while choreographed, wrestlers have the disadvantage of being viewed on all 4 sides, not to mention that many nights it’s filmed live. He (and AJ as well) mentioned that a few of these here and there are fine, but if WWE overdoes it, the uniqueness of them will fade to everyone that enjoyed them and they will be ruined. Jim also reiterated Kevin Dunn’s desire to make WWE more entertainment than wrestling, which I’m sure most of us know already. I think Jim kinda liked the Boneyard match as a brawl, but because it would go against the his stance on pro wrestling he had to stick with it. I like to think that the Boneyard Match wasn't a match, it was a Fight. Because that's what it was...it was a fight.
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Negan™
Mid-Carder
Joined on: Jul 31, 2013 16:42:44 GMT -5
Posts: 356
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Post by Negan™ on Apr 18, 2020 0:41:34 GMT -5
I personally love these matches.
Ciampa/Gargano sucked though. They can do and have already done so much better.
The Boneyard Match, the Final Deletion and the original Hardys one in TNA I loved.
I don't consider that Firefly Funhouse thing a match. It was more like an episode of the Funhouse.
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Post by ricflair4ever on Apr 18, 2020 17:01:54 GMT -5
I've given up on wrestling ever being what it used to be. Especially when it comes to Vince's vision of sports entertainment vs pro wrestling. However, i still want 99% of it to take place in the ring , even if under stipulations or whatever. That being said these cinematic segments have their place. Much like Mick Foley used to say, its like a circus. If you don't like this thing we featured, here's this other thing you might like. So if they could ever find it within themselves to use these sparingly , 1 or 2 per year, then these could be effective and entertaining. Taker vs AJ was enjoyable as a fight and not a match. Cena vs Bray wasn't anything other than a segment. An entertaining one yes, but there wasn't a match there. This upcoming MITB thing will probably be a mixture of cinematic and in ring, so I'll withold judgement. Overall they're not what i want wrestling to become, but can have their place if done properly and only when it matters. Just my opinion of course.
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Post by Next Man’s Knowing Rock on Apr 18, 2020 21:25:18 GMT -5
I've given up on wrestling ever being what it used to be. Especially when it comes to Vince's vision of sports entertainment vs pro wrestling. Having a problem with Vince’s vision of sports entertainment seems like a pretty odd take for someone with an Ultimate Warrior avatar.
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Post by shanieomaniac on Apr 18, 2020 22:07:37 GMT -5
You know, just heard about MITB, and it's making me have horrible flashbacks to an exceedingly violent dream I once had about a hunger games style free for all that took place in Titan Tower. Only, instead of aiming for the roof, the goal was the basement. You started at the top and worked your way down.
Honestly, not a dream I needed reminded of ever again, so thanks WWE for that.
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Post by ricflair4ever on Apr 18, 2020 22:26:08 GMT -5
I've given up on wrestling ever being what it used to be. Especially when it comes to Vince's vision of sports entertainment vs pro wrestling. Having a problem with Vince’s vision of sports entertainment seems like a pretty odd take for someone with an Ultimate Warrior avatar. I never said it had to be grappling with a headlock for 15 minutes and looking perpetually 60 years old to do it lol. You can have colorful characters or Lou Thesz. Each are as much a part of pro wrestling as the other. However the common denominators from both of those eras, were that both were presented as a simulated sport where wins and losses mattered. Where titles were the primary reason for those guys to be "competing" and there wasnt a stranglehold on what words could be used to as an alternative to say 'wrestler', 'wrestling', 'belt', or even 'fans'. No matter how glitzy the WWF was compared to any other group, and i preferred most of the other groups, it was still wrestling and put together in a fashion that made you care ....even under the hollywood meets bugs bunny style of WWF. Nowadays we have the most athletically gifted talents ever and the booking philosophy and stifling of a lot of these guys and gals talents, make it harder for the vast majority to get invested past the spectacle. My point on the cinematic stuff is that there can be room for it to work...if they dont drive it into the ground and make it cookie cutter like everything else. And that last part is a LOT of Vince's vision of what 'sports entertainment' is.
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Post by Next Man’s Knowing Rock on Apr 19, 2020 7:22:09 GMT -5
Having a problem with Vince’s vision of sports entertainment seems like a pretty odd take for someone with an Ultimate Warrior avatar. And that last part is a LOT of Vince's vision of what 'sports entertainment' is. Wait, so... you don’t think late eighties WWF was Vince’s vision of sports entertainment? 🤣
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Post by k5 on Apr 19, 2020 10:01:36 GMT -5
And that last part is a LOT of Vince's vision of what 'sports entertainment' is. Wait, so... you don’t think late eighties WWF was Vince’s vision of sports entertainment? 🤣 he literally said ‘Hollywood meets bugs bunny’. he admits that the 80s had aspects of sports entertainment but that wrestling was still an integral aspect. but of course you quote one line and try to insult his opinion.
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Post by rkmo: 9 Month Warning on Apr 19, 2020 10:46:57 GMT -5
Wonder if Vince would require Bugs Bunny to do a Southern accent for him to get a push...
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Post by Next Man’s Knowing Rock on Apr 19, 2020 11:36:33 GMT -5
Wait, so... you don’t think late eighties WWF was Vince’s vision of sports entertainment? 🤣 he literally said ‘Hollywood meets bugs bunny’. he admits that the 80s had aspects of sports entertainment but that wrestling was still an integral aspect. but of course you quote one line and try to insult his opinion. Sports entertainment is what the WWF/WWE calls pro wrestling. Ultimate Warrior was just as much a part of Vince McMahon’s vision as Becky Lynch is.
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Post by k5 on Apr 19, 2020 12:00:32 GMT -5
he literally said ‘Hollywood meets bugs bunny’. he admits that the 80s had aspects of sports entertainment but that wrestling was still an integral aspect. but of course you quote one line and try to insult his opinion. Sports entertainment is what the WWF/WWE calls pro wrestling. Ultimate Warrior was just as much a part of Vince McMahon’s vision as Becky Lynch is. right. but his point, which has been echoed by not only several fans but also wrestlers and others within the business, is that the vision has degenerated. you can disagree with that, but ignoring his valid points is just condescending.
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jking1979
Superstar
Joined on: Oct 3, 2019 20:00:02 GMT -5
Posts: 754
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Post by jking1979 on Apr 20, 2020 14:40:13 GMT -5
I would watch Sting and Undertaker in this type of match.
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