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Post by Heresy on Oct 2, 2008 12:01:05 GMT -5
That may be true, in some cases - but that doesn't apply to CM Punk at all.. I remember you saying the exact same thing about Paul Burchill, too.. Yes, Paul Burchill - one of the prime cases of "The Emperor Has No Clothes" - built up by the Internet idiots as something great, then he appears and can't get a fan reaction to save his life. Yes, because HHH and Undertaker and Orton and Edge and Jericho and Michaels are hamstrung by that pesky "WWE style" that stops anyone getting over with fans, eh? If you see all wrestlers as faceless robots that are completely controlled by the "creative team" then how can you like any of them? Every time any wrestler steps out in front of a crowd they have a world of opportunity. I can think of multiple examples in the last few years of wrestlers that became tremendously and unexpectedly popular and forced WWE's hand on storyline directions: Batista's whole rise to championship status for one, when WWE was building towards HHH vs Orton for WrestleMania. Eugene was another, his popularity (and Benoit's inability to be a character of value) led to him being the most important babyface character on RAW during the Benoit title run. Jeff Hardy was thrown into the main event scene late last year by fan support. Umaga took King Booker's WM23 role by being so impressive in his series with Cena. Those are just four examples. Conversely, Punk has had several months as the main titleholder on two different WWE brands. You can blame whatever you like for your little indie favourites failing to make it in the real promotion, but ultimately, the responsibility is on their shoulders. Punk is not a failure yet. Burchill most likely is - he's a guy that could be kept around as a Victoria-esque heel jobber, but he hasn't displayed any kind of star ability beyond that. And he was given months of squash matches, a hot chick, an alliance with the Raw GM, runs with other rising stars (Kingston and Kennedy) and he never made any of it click. Hopefully, he will do so at some point, but it doesn't seem likely. Punk on the other hand did a reasonable job as the fluke champion - he played the part well enough. But the opportunity was there to succeed even if he was being set up to fail. There's a difference between entertaining 200 people who rate matches based on some arbitrary five star system and entertaining 10000 people who don't give a damn about Japanese armbars. Again, Burchill was over when WWE let him be over (i.e. getting him familiar with the audience as a credible character)... as a heel in his feud with Kennedy, and a face as the pirate. Feel free to dispute this... the guy got heat when needed, and cheers when needed. WWE stars aren't faceless robots, but they aren't superhumans either... if a great wrestler is told "get squashed by Batista (or Kennedy or Kofi or Noble)" the squash isn't going to reflect the wrestler's "greatness." Yet there lays the flaw in your mentality, because you think it does. 2 bad 4 u Likewise if a guy like Batista is told "go out and put on a killer feud with your former Mentor Triple H resulting in a megaface turn" he'll be familiar, hence over, with the fans. If Jeff Hardy is told "Go out and jump off ladders on a regular basis, and have extended matches on Smackdown", Hardy will be getting the big crowd reactions. This ain't rocket science, it's common sense. What you suggest is that there are never any "dropped balls" in WWE because a guy who they don't feel like investing in "can't be any good."
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Post by Next Manufactured’s Sweater on Oct 2, 2008 12:13:28 GMT -5
Again, Burchill was over when WWE let him be over (i.e. getting him familiar with the audience as a credible character)... as a heel in his feud with Kennedy, and a face as the pirate. Feel free to dispute this... the guy got heat when needed, and cheers when needed. I think you've imagined a different Paul Burchill (or rather, a different crowd) during the Kennedy feud. Yes Burchill was very popular as the pirate character, and it's a shame that that got yanked. But since then, he's been very nondescript. So just to confirm - you think a wrestler can't shine in a match where they lose, and every loss is a squash. Righto. What you're missing is that Batista, Hardy, Umaga and Eugene were all put into their money-making positions because they succeeded in what they were doing before then - and fans dictated that WWE promote them. That's what your golden boy Burchill hasn't done. He has yet to enter a performance in any match, interview or backstage segment that has drawn any sizeable response. All four of the wrestlers I've named did that before they got a big push. But hey, if it helps you sleep at night, blame Burchill's failure on the writers. They're the reason why Chris Masters and Kenzo Suzuki and Rob Conway and Braden Walker and every other cast-off failed to become a huge star, too. It's all about the writers. Wrestlers aren't responsible for any of their own performance.
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Deleted
Joined on: Sept 29, 2024 21:34:49 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2008 17:48:27 GMT -5
why does everyone hate punk after he won the title? he is a great performer and a deserving champion. if punk didn't win the title there wouldn't be any threads like this. the thing that bugs me though is that wwe doesn't let him show his true talent. e.g the wont let him do the pepsi plunge because hhh thinks it is two similar to the pedigree. That's just it. What has he done in WWE that earns him the great performer title? He hasn't done anything that really excited me or made me take notice. I know he can but he hasn't since being in WWE. I feel like this great performer talk is based off people seeing his indy work and if he was just a no name that came into WWE people wouldn't say he was as great as they do. Its more about what he has done then what he does now, its just people hold out hope he can be that good again if WWE lets him.
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Post by Heresy on Oct 2, 2008 18:33:22 GMT -5
I think you've imagined a different Paul Burchill (or rather, a different crowd) during the Kennedy feud. See for yourself (ie Youtube.) It didn't get main event level pops but the reactions were more than passable for what looked to be a potentially hot midcard feud. So just to confirm - you think a wrestler can't shine in a match where they lose, and every loss is a squash. Righto. Uhhh, what? I'm saying it's next to impossible to go out and have an epic match when a) you've not been booked consistently enough to be familiar with the audience and b) your matches rarely extend past five minutes and consist of you getting pretty much beaten down and made to look non credible. What you're missing is that Batista, Hardy, Umaga and Eugene were all put into their money-making positions because they succeeded in what they were doing before then - and fans dictated that WWE promote them. That's what your golden boy Burchill hasn't done. He has yet to enter a performance in any match, interview or backstage segment that has drawn any sizeable response. All four of the wrestlers I've named did that before they got a big push. Batista, Hardy, and Eugene (fans cared about Umaga?) were booked consistently and placed into storylines where the audience was allowed to invest emotion into their characters. I can tell you won't be "getting this" anytime soon, so I'll stop here.
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Post by Quanthor on Oct 2, 2008 18:45:20 GMT -5
CM Punk lacks great psychology and an identity and because of this I don't think he's going to amount to much in the WWE, unless of course he gets a gimmick change and can actually immerse himself into that character.
It doesn't help either that the WWE ruined him by making Punk lose a million times before slapping the WHC on him for convenience reasons and continues to make him look inferior by making Punk the first ever midcard WHC and still continues to lose.
That's bad booking, that's not Punk fault, but I will say, that being in his position he didn't make the best of it, he didn't really expand his fan base and said nothing memorable on the mic. He should of thought of a clever one liner when speaking instead of continuing to prove that he doesn't have an identity outside of his appearance.
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Post by cenaroxorz123 on Oct 2, 2008 18:49:34 GMT -5
why does everyone hate punk after he won the title? he is a great performer and a deserving champion. if punk didn't win the title there wouldn't be any threads like this. the thing that bugs me though is that wwe doesn't let him show his true talent. e.g the wont let him do the pepsi plunge because hhh thinks it is two similar to the pedigree. CM Punk doesn't WANT to do the Pepsi Plunge because it's hard on his knees. He stopped doing it a long time ago.
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Post by jayjay on Oct 2, 2008 19:04:28 GMT -5
He has done nothing that I am aware of..., MVP should have won MITB and cashed it in on Triple H IMO. Atleast he has well...done something that is in the history books... i don't see how beating a murderer in a 2 out of 3 falls match, or having a long, drawn out title reign that didn't have a big conclusion, or being consistently boring in all his matches, makes him deserving of any higher push than what he has already had. I don't see how beating John Morrison and jobbing to undercarders like the Miz and Hardcore Holly makes CM Punk any deserving of any world title in the WWE
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Post by TeamExtreme718x on Oct 2, 2008 19:06:36 GMT -5
This thread is complete joke..Very typical of the IWC..this one doesnt even deserve my opinion..
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wagwan
Mid-Carder
Joined on: Nov 28, 2007 3:40:07 GMT -5
Posts: 496
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Post by wagwan on Oct 2, 2008 19:42:54 GMT -5
why does everyone hate punk after he won the title? he is a great performer and a deserving champion. if punk didn't win the title there wouldn't be any threads like this. the thing that bugs me though is that wwe doesn't let him show his true talent. e.g the wont let him do the pepsi plunge because hhh thinks it is two similar to the pedigree. CM Punk doesn't WANT to do the Pepsi Plunge because it's hard on his knees. He stopped doing it a long time ago. Lol it might have to do with him damn near KILLING everyone with it, and not to mention some dude named Triple H uses a move quite similar to it, only not as impressive...
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Post by AdamBomb on Oct 2, 2008 21:39:18 GMT -5
why does everyone hate punk after he won the title? he is a great performer and a deserving champion. if punk didn't win the title there wouldn't be any threads like this. the thing that bugs me though is that wwe doesn't let him show his true talent. e.g the wont let him do the pepsi plunge because hhh thinks it is two similar to the pedigree. That's just it. What has he done in WWE that earns him the great performer title? He hasn't done anything that really excited me or made me take notice. I know he can but he hasn't since being in WWE. I feel like this great performer talk is based off people seeing his indy work and if he was just a no name that came into WWE people wouldn't say he was as great as they do. Its more about what he has done then what he does now, its just people hold out hope he can be that good again if WWE lets him. Exactly, YOU feel like that. The higher ups in the WWE who decided to give him a pretty lengthy undefeated streak in ECW, the ECW title, money in the bank, and the World Heavyweight Title feel differently. It's a matter of opinion, I don't see what is so special about Kane, but a lot of people like him. However, you're right. If Punk didn't pull off great matches in the indies for people to talk about, and he came in as just 'some guy' - he wouldn't be where he is now, because people wouldn't know what he can do when he gets the chance. He had to get noticed somehow, and he made a name for himself before ever coming into the WWE. That's what makes him different than a lot of these random guys they bring in, Punk has a past people know about, or can easily learn about. And to be fair, if you want to pull the, "what have they done in the WWE," card talk to the guys who want Burchill to be pushed to the moon.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2008 21:47:47 GMT -5
He has done nothing that I am aware of..., MVP should have won MITB and cashed it in on Triple H IMO. Atleast he has well...done something that is in the history books... i don't see how beating a murderer in a 2 out of 3 falls match, or having a long, drawn out title reign that didn't have a big conclusion, or being consistently boring in all his matches, makes him deserving of any higher push than what he has already had. Yeah, Im sure MVP was given a notice that he would be beating a murderer for the United States Title Not his fault that happened. Now Im sorry, I like Punk. But MVP shouldve won MITB. He's done alot more than Punk has. Great fueds with Kane, Undertaker (sort of), Matt Hardy and Jeff Hardy. Granted his slacked as of late but He wouldve made a better Champion then Punk. Punk shouldve won the title in a face way rather then a heel way. And Not winning an actual title defense cleanly until more then a month after winning the title isnt good either.
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Post by Hollywood Asia on Oct 2, 2008 22:09:11 GMT -5
Punk as a heel is a joke because all the faces are bigger and in better shape...
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Post by Mark on Oct 2, 2008 22:26:21 GMT -5
the theory about a wrestler not being able to shine in a squash match is really canceled as I suggest you watch TAKA vs Triple H or Funaki vs Triple H on Raw
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samsson
Superstar
from the southside
Joined on: Dec 12, 2006 10:29:18 GMT -5
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Post by samsson on Oct 2, 2008 22:48:32 GMT -5
I think that when we get into these discussions a lot can be said about the writing,now I know some people will say you got the chance run with it...but lets be real,when it happens that way, everyone says,"he's not ready for the title".Does everyone on here agree this is why the I.C. title and U.S. title are so important....this is where the build up of someones character should be,at this point,(example ...Savage,HBK,Triple H,Stone Cold,Rock,Bret Hart, Chris Beniot,Eddie,and the list goes on)Even Randy proved it as I.C. champ...make Punk I.C. champ get into some feuds and when its time have him go after the world. I for one would love to see Randy as the world, Punk as the I.C. and they settle it at Mania "old school "style
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2008 22:49:19 GMT -5
That's just it. What has he done in WWE that earns him the great performer title? He hasn't done anything that really excited me or made me take notice. I know he can but he hasn't since being in WWE. I feel like this great performer talk is based off people seeing his indy work and if he was just a no name that came into WWE people wouldn't say he was as great as they do. Its more about what he has done then what he does now, its just people hold out hope he can be that good again if WWE lets him. Exactly, YOU feel like that. The higher ups in the WWE who decided to give him a pretty lengthy undefeated streak in ECW, the ECW title, money in the bank, and the World Heavyweight Title feel differently. It's a matter of opinion, I don't see what is so special about Kane, but a lot of people like him. However, you're right. If Punk didn't pull off great matches in the indies for people to talk about, and he came in as just 'some guy' - he wouldn't be where he is now, because people wouldn't know what he can do when he gets the chance. He had to get noticed somehow, and he made a name for himself before ever coming into the WWE. That's what makes him different than a lot of these random guys they bring in, Punk has a past people know about, or can easily learn about. And to be fair, if you want to pull the, "what have they done in the WWE," card talk to the guys who want Burchill to be pushed to the moon. Well Burchill will be released before he holds any gold. I chalk that off to wishful thinking. I just used Punk as an example since he was given the top prize in WWE without doing much of anything before or during that run.
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Post by K5 on Oct 2, 2008 23:11:13 GMT -5
they definetly should have built him slower, however the idea was the right direction.
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Post by Kurt Burton: Script Doctor! on Oct 3, 2008 1:11:59 GMT -5
Since Burchal's name was dropped, I will say that the difference between Punk and guy's like Burchall, Goldman, and company is that Punk was actually built up. Burchall just randomly showed up one day, never given a lot of mic time, and pretty much buried from day one. Same with Goldman.
I remember Punk's intro, and they built him and Shannon Moore up for weeks, untill Punk bitch smacked Moore. Great build. Goldman having the talking box thing, no build.
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Post by Controversial Maverick PUNK on Oct 3, 2008 1:17:06 GMT -5
CM Punk lacks great psychology and an identity and because of this I don't think he's going to amount to much in the WWE, unless of course he gets a gimmick change and can actually immerse himself into that character. It doesn't help either that the WWE ruined him by making Punk lose a million times before slapping the WHC on him for convenience reasons and continues to make him look inferior by making Punk the first ever midcard WHC and still continues to lose. That's bad booking, that's not Punk fault, but I will say, that being in his position he didn't make the best of it, he didn't really expand his fan base and said nothing memorable on the mic. He should of thought of a clever one liner when speaking instead of continuing to prove that he doesn't have an identity outside of his appearance.He's told exactly what to say - he can't "think of clever one liners", because he's working to a script.. It's impossible to develop a character or identity, when you get no opportunity, or get hardly any mic time..
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Post by dalethegreat on Oct 3, 2008 1:24:52 GMT -5
This thread is complete joke..Very typical of the IWC..this one doesnt even deserve my opinion.. doesn't deserve your opinion? you're nearly as self righteous as punk himself
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Post by Kurt Burton: Script Doctor! on Oct 3, 2008 1:24:54 GMT -5
Punk as a heel is a joke because all the faces are bigger and in better shape... And that's why Shawn Michaels as a heel never got over. Because nobody could ever just be so obnoxious you want to see their face kicked in.... right?
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