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Post by Swarm on Jan 12, 2009 1:33:59 GMT -5
Very interesting show indeed.
The Light Heavyweight rankings intrigue me. Many people can and likely will disagree with how I break this down, but my rankings are very simple; Evans beat Griffin who beat Jackson who beat Liddel who beat Wanderlei. However, Henderson beat Wanderlei which puts him in the fifth spot for me. Now granted you have wildcards like Shogun, Jardine, and Machita but to me, none of them have proven at this point that they deserve a spot above any of those five guys. So...
01. Rashad Evans 02. Forrest Griffin 03. Quinton Jackson 04. Chuck Liddel 05. Dan Henderson
With that, by my very simple logic, if Rich Franklin is to beat Dan Henderson, that would give Franklin the fifth spot on the rankings, which could theoretically put him in line against Chuck Liddel, same if Henderson wins to be honest. Regardless, this is a very interesting bout that I would not make the mistake of calling.
I will say that my gut (which accurately called Evans > Liddel, Lesnar > Couture, Mir > Nogueira, etc...) tells me that Mark Coleman's going to pull out a win over Shogun. I can't explain why I feel that way, I just feel that Coleman's strength over Shogun will allow him to take him to the ground and ground and pound Shogun to a TKO, possibly breaking a limb of Shogun's in some freak accident as it happens.
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Post by James Hetfield on Jan 12, 2009 1:35:55 GMT -5
I think Henderson should stay at 205. He had a good showing in the first round with Silva, but I think he works much better at Light Heavyweight.
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Post by Swarm on Jan 12, 2009 2:08:23 GMT -5
I think Henderson should stay at 205. He had a good showing in the first round with Silva, but I think he works much better at Light Heavyweight. Plus let's face it, there's a lot more money fights for Henderson at 205. Henderson/Franklin, Henderson/Liddel, Henderson/Wanderlei III, Henderson/Griffin, etc...
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jan 12, 2009 2:27:08 GMT -5
Very interesting show indeed. The Light Heavyweight rankings intrigue me. Many people can and likely will disagree with how I break this down, but my rankings are very simple; Evans beat Griffin who beat Jackson who beat Liddel who beat Wanderlei. However, Henderson beat Wanderlei which puts him in the fifth spot for me. Now granted you have wildcards like Shogun, Jardine, and Machita but to me, none of them have proven at this point that they deserve a spot above any of those five guys. So... 01. Rashad Evans 02. Forrest Griffin 03. Quinton Jackson 04. Chuck Liddel 05. Dan Henderson With that, by my very simple logic, if Rich Franklin is to beat Dan Henderson, that would give Franklin the fifth spot on the rankings, which could theoretically put him in line against Chuck Liddel, same if Henderson wins to be honest. Regardless, this is a very interesting bout that I would not make the mistake of calling. I will say that my gut (which accurately called Evans > Liddel, Lesnar > Couture, Mir > Nogueira, etc...) tells me that Mark Coleman's going to pull out a win over Shogun. I can't explain why I feel that way, I just feel that Coleman's strength over Shogun will allow him to take him to the ground and ground and pound Shogun to a TKO, possibly breaking a limb of Shogun's in some freak accident as it happens. How Liddell is the #4 LHW in the world...or even in the UFC on your rankings puzzles me. The guy got knocked out by Rampage and Rashad Evans and lost to Keith Jardine. He won against Wanderlei Silva in a very close fight. Wanderlei smashed on Keith Jardine and KO'd him in under a minute. I agree with Rashad at number one. Undefeated fighter with big wins over Chuck Liddell, Forrest Griffin, Michael Bisping, and a draw against Tito Ortiz. I would put Rampage at number two. Before he lost to Forrest he was on a roll with wins over Matt Lindland, Marvin Eastman, Chuck Liddell, and Dan Henderson..he then rebounds from a loss to Forrest by KO'ing Wanderlei Silva...a fight nobody gave him a chance in. I then...(as much as I hate to) put Lyoto Machida at number 3. The guy has wins over Stephan Bonnar, Sokodjou, BJ Penn, Tito Ortiz, and gave Rich Franklin his first loss. He is undefeated and if he gets past Thiago(which I don't think he will) I can see him getting a title shot after Rampage. Dan Henderson is at number 4. He lost a close fight to Rampage but the guy is a legend in the sport and the only reason being so low is due to him only having one fight so far in the UFC at LHW. Number 5 is a tie for me. Jardine/Forrest. Forrest has wins over Rua and Rampage. A loss to Evans and Jardine. Jardine is I believe the only man to have WINS over Liddell, Griffin, and Vera. But he then has losses to Houston Alexander and Wanderlei Silva. I don't know...it is a toss up for number 5. I suppose a lot of people would put Rua in there but he has only fought in the UFC once and lost...and didn't look all that impressive to me in his fight against Forrest. We will see what Shogun shows up against Coleman...
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Post by Swarm on Jan 12, 2009 2:58:56 GMT -5
How Liddell is the #4 LHW in the world...or even in the UFC on your rankings puzzles me. The guy got knocked out by Rampage and Rashad Evans and lost to Keith Jardine. He won against Wanderlei Silva in a very close fight. Wanderlei smashed on Keith Jardine and KO'd him in under a minute. But with the exception of Keith Jardine, in the past three years Liddell's only been beaten by elite, top tier Light Heavyweights. Meanwhile he's beaten Wanderlei Silva, Tito Ortiz, and Randy Couture, undoubtedly three of the best fighters to ever compete at Light Heavyweight. As for Jardine, he hasn't really proven himself to be anything other than incredibly inconsistent. He wrecks Forrest Griffin then gets trashed by Houston Alexander, puts a beating on Chuck Liddell then gets knocked into convulsions by Wanderlei, etc... I'm not saying he's not a really good fighter, but until he can prove that he can consistently compete with the best, I wouldn't even consider putting him over Chuck Liddell, who at worst has just been passed over by the next generation of Light Heavyweights. I would put Rampage at number two. Before he lost to Forrest he was on a roll with wins over Matt Lindland, Marvin Eastman, Chuck Liddell, and Dan Henderson..he then rebounds from a loss to Forrest by KO'ing Wanderlei Silva...a fight nobody gave him a chance in. I called him winning the Wanderlei fight, . Anyway, as I said in the first post, I have a very, very simple way of approaching rankings. And the way I see it, if A beats B and B beats C, I don't think C can honestly be considered above B until they beat B. So while Quinton clearly has a longer, much more impressive list of wins, I can't put him over Forrest until he beats Forrest (which I hope happens and I would much rather see that rematch with the winner facing Rashad rather than just giving Rampage the title shot). I then...(as much as I hate to) put Lyoto Machida at number 3. The guy has wins over Stephan Bonnar, Sokodjou, BJ Penn, Tito Ortiz, and gave Rich Franklin his first loss. He is undefeated and if he gets past Thiago(which I don't think he will) I can see him getting a title shot after Rampage. Lyoto Machida is an interesting case. Here's a guy who literally has never exchanged with ANYONE he's ever fought. Lyoto Machida represents my nightmare of what MMA could become when everybody is good at everything; A bunch of guys too concerned about getting knocked out, taken down, or submitted so they run away for three rounds occasionally hitting their opponent with love taps to edge out a decision. The guy has never shown anything impressive in MMA. Never. Not once. Besides, his wins over BJ, Bonnar, and Franklin are ancient history and his win over Tito was purely just a way for UFC to trash Tito. For one, Tito was hurt, so he wasn't going to be able to muscle Machida to the ground and impose his will. And for two, let's face it, Tito can't do a whole hell of a lot unless he can get in the clinch and work from there to the ground. You put him against someone who's going to just run away for three rounds, he's pretty much out of it, which really tells you something about a fighter when he's afraid to exchange in a standup fight with Tito Ortiz. Yeah. But anyway, Machida hasn't proven anything. I'll go on record right now saying Thiago Silva is going to MURDER Lyoto Machida. He's going to beat him up every time Lyoto tries to throw a love tap, and eventually Lyoto will get backed into the fence, Thiago will beat him down, and eventually get a Ground and Pound win. And once that happens, we can all forget about Lyoto Machida forever. Thank god. Dan Henderson is at number 4. He lost a close fight to Rampage but the guy is a legend in the sport and the only reason being so low is due to him only having one fight so far in the UFC at LHW. We more or less agree on Henderson. His only recent losses were against Anderson Silva, the best Middleweight in the UFC, and Quinton Jackson, one of the best Light Heavyweights in the UFC. I think this Franklin fight will be very telling as to where Henderson really stands with the best. Number 5 is a tie for me. Jardine/Forrest. Forrest has wins over Rua and Rampage. A loss to Evans and Jardine. Jardine is I believe the only man to have WINS over Liddell, Griffin, and Vera. But he then has losses to Houston Alexander and Wanderlei Silva. I don't know...it is a toss up for number 5. I suppose a lot of people would put Rua in there but he has only fought in the UFC once and lost...and didn't look all that impressive to me in his fight against Forrest. We will see what Shogun shows up against Coleman... I agree completely with your feeling on Shogun. The problem with the Pride vs. UFC debates for years is that you could never gauge the level of competition. I personally feel that Shogun's wins in Pride are really irrelevant at this point since, most will agree, three years in MMA is really like a decade in any other sport, and Shogun hasn't beaten anybody of any significance in over three years. EDIT I should just add so it doesn't seem like I'm trying to pick apart your opinions that I understand where you're coming from with everything except Machida, I just disagree and would like to explain why I disagree. You have perfectly good points on all the other stuff, we just happen to have a different way of seeing things on this topic.
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jan 12, 2009 3:18:42 GMT -5
well we absolutely agree on Machida.
I f***ing marked out like a little girl when Tito sunk in that triangle...It proved that when Machida is caught...he is beatable...so someone needs to go in their extremely aggressive. It has to be someone like Rampage or Evans...if Lyoto fights one of them then he will be KO'd and have to work his ass back up the ladder.
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Post by Swarm on Jan 12, 2009 3:24:32 GMT -5
well we absolutely agree on Machida. I f***ing marked out like a little girl when Tito sunk in that triangle...It proved that when Machida is caught...he is beatable...so someone needs to go in their extremely aggressive. It has to be someone like Rampage or Evans...if Lyoto fights one of them then he will be KO'd and have to work his ass back up the ladder. Or hopefully be locked in one of those crates at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark, never to be seen again.
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Post by gordon on Jan 12, 2009 10:07:59 GMT -5
Dan Henderson - altho its unpredictable, i like both equally but see KO from hendo Mauricio "Shogun" Rua - will KO Coleman is he doesnt wrestle him to the mat Dennis Kang - viscous KO Chris "Lights-Out" Lytle - via KO Rousimar Palhares by Ground and Pound
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the hell demon
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Post by the hell demon on Jan 15, 2009 0:29:23 GMT -5
Lyoto wants people to rush in and be aggressive towards him that way he can use their momentum against them. It's his style. He's basically real life RYU. but I don't wanna start another Machida sucks/is awesome discussion. anyways Is this gonna be free on Spike here in the US? Because I know a free one is coming soon but can't remember when. Thanks
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jan 15, 2009 0:40:32 GMT -5
Lyoto hasn't had an entertaining fight...ever. So does his style work? Yes. Would I buy a PPV headlined by Lyoto as Champion? No.
and no it isn't free...
..I thought it was free too, =/
the UFC put two amazing cards together in one month for PPV. I can't afford both so I don't know which to choose. I might have to go with GSP vs. Penn... =/
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Post by NYdream™ on Jan 15, 2009 1:00:56 GMT -5
Lyoto hasn't had an entertaining fight...ever. So does his style work? Yes. Would I buy a PPV headlined by Lyoto as Champion? No. and no it isn't free... ..I thought it was free too, =/ the UFC put two amazing cards together in one month for PPV. I can't afford both so I don't know which to choose. I might have to go with GSP vs. Penn... =/ Id go GSP/Penn if I were you...
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the hell demon
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Post by the hell demon on Jan 15, 2009 4:38:30 GMT -5
And that's why Ryoto will never get a title shot. Even if he KO's Fedor, Hong Man Choi, and Brock Lesnar in a handicap match. I was thinking of the next Fight Night on Feb 7th. That one is free. I'm not going out of my way to watch this card but if someone orders it I may have to stop by. Hendo/Franklin is gonna be bombs city.
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Post by k5 on Jan 15, 2009 14:04:30 GMT -5
i'll be watching this at boston pizza getting hammed. woo!
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Post by v/\v on Jan 16, 2009 8:52:06 GMT -5
It's free for us - we get all the PPV's live and free of charge over here.. Yup, looking forward to some good fights.
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Post by Mr. Orange on Jan 16, 2009 14:54:10 GMT -5
I have a feeling that Henderson/Franklin will be a razor thin decision. Go Hendo!
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Post by Mr. Orange on Jan 16, 2009 16:33:39 GMT -5
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BigEvilNerd
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Post by BigEvilNerd on Jan 16, 2009 23:55:52 GMT -5
Huh. The size difference between Coleman and Shogun is less apparent at 205 than it was at heavy. Coleman's shredded but you can tell he's lost a lot of mass, especially in his arms, shoulders and neck. Then again he probably cut quite a bit to get down there. I bet by fight time Coleman's in the 220 range. Still small by Coleman's standards, but he was in the 220's for the first fight if I recall and it served him well. He was quick enough to avoid the sub attempts and just bumrushed Shogun...I don't know if he'll be able to do it again. Shogun looks in better shape than against Forrest, that much is sure.
And Hendo/Franklin both look great. I think Dan's taking this all the way...a lot of legendary chins got busted last year (Nog, Hunt, Fujita especially) but I think Dan's will hold up to Rich's power, if it even stays on the feet. I expect Dan's going to try and outwork Rich in the clinch and on the mat though. Why stand with a pretty competent striker if you clearly have an advantage in other areas? Still, Hendo's a crazy SOB and he stood with Wanderlei, Rampage, Anderson, and went to the ground against Big Nog, Lil Nog, Arona, Ninja, and Bustamante, so he's not exactly known for doing exactly what he should do in there. I'm taking Hendo by either wide UD or a late stoppage. I don't think anyone's getting blasted out early in this one. Rich, for whatever failings he has, at least is durable. He got hit real flush by the Crow, Tanner, and even Rivera landed some good shots on him and Rich took them well. The only times he's been finished were two maulings from Silva and the KO to Machida. The Machida KO you can attribute to just a great shot right on the button, and Silva would KO pretty much anyone in the division.
Man I am psyched for this card and Affliction 2. What a great month for MMA.
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Post by Codesters on Jan 17, 2009 0:03:50 GMT -5
Haha...Eddie Bravo and Rogan look Baked.
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Post by magnumkane on Jan 17, 2009 1:06:32 GMT -5
I stand neutral over Hendo vs Ace, I only hope it doesn't propell one of the 2 instantly as the to be #1 contender to the Light Heavy belt, as i'm hoping my man Lyoto Machida gets a title shot!, I also hope this is the night Shogun makes a statement even at the expense of the Hammer, Shogun has much more to offer to the UFC and MMA, than Mark does in my opinion. If Rousimar Palhares, improves his stand up and continues to perform like he did at UFC 88 than he will be a force in the UFC; it could be a short and painful night for Mr Horn. Either way its a nice pre cursour to UFC 94.
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BigEvilNerd
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Post by BigEvilNerd on Jan 17, 2009 1:13:40 GMT -5
I stand neutral over Hendo vs Ace, I only hope it doesn't propell one of the 2 instantly as the to be #1 contender to the Light Heavy belt, as i'm hoping my man Lyoto Machida gets a title shot!, I also hope this is the night Shogun makes a statement even at the expense of the Hammer, Shogun has much more to offer to the UFC and MMA, than Mark does in my opinion. If Rousimar Palhares, improves his stand up and continues to perform like he did at UFC 88 than he will be a force in the UFC; it could be a short and painful night for Mr Horn. Either way its a nice pre cursour to UFC 94. You're definitely right about Machida. If the winner of Hendo/Franklin gets a shot it'll basically prove the UFC is keeping Machida away from the belt on purpose. I go back to my big argument about sport vs. entertainment. MMA is a SPORT. And as such, fighters who consistently have moved up the ranks and WIN should get the title shots, not guys who just happen to be exciting and coming off a win. Lyoto in my mind, deserves the shot at 205 next. He's the only light heavy who really stands out as being an obvious choice. You've got other guys in the mix but none of them bring the kind of record, credentials, and successive wins inside the octagon to the table that Machida does. I mean suppose Franklin wins and gets a shot. He's got 2 wins at light heavy since his return to that weight class, and one was over what I consider an unranked Matt Hammill and one was over Hendo, a legit opponent but not really statistically positioned to give his conqueror a title shot. Hendo wins, and he's got even less of a case. He beats Franklin who is unranked at 205, and that will be Hendo's ONLY win at 205 since returning to the UFC. That is NOT title shot quality work.
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