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Post by v/\v on Jun 8, 2009 15:04:19 GMT -5
Yeah. He's awesome in the ring. Been booked just as badly as Punk has. And got jackshit.
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Post by fallenheart on Jun 8, 2009 15:04:38 GMT -5
I really like CM Punk, I want him to go heel, just when he was back in the day
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Post by sxexhxc on Jun 8, 2009 15:07:09 GMT -5
Umaga has done enough to become WWE Champion. He's had great matches with Cena, Jeff Hardy, Triple H and more. Besides, Umaga isn't a former 2 time MITB winner, Intercontinental Champion, ECW Champion, Tag Team Champion and 2 time World Heavyweight Champion. So that argument is blank... You're absolutely right, Umaga has NOT done all of those things. Punk has. So why does Punk not deserve it from all those accomplishments? He had one GREAT match with Cena, and a few good ones with the others. CM Punk has had GREAT matches with Jericho, and some good ones with Jeff Hardy, John Morrison, and Rey Mysterio, among others. Your "logic" BAFFLES me. Punk had has MANY more solid->good->great matches with people than Umaga has. And I like Umaga too. Your argument is that Punk hasn't done anything to "deserve" the Championship in the WWE, right? Anything outside of WWE is irrelevant? I'll hark back to Jimmy's post in case you missed it. Ric Flair shouldn't have won the 1992 Royal Rumble then. If Punk's five star matches with Samoa Joe don't count, why should Flair's with Steamboat? He hadn't done anything in the WWF. Hulk Hogan didn't do anything do deserve winning the WWF Championship from the Iron Sheik. The Undertaker did nothing to deserve winning it from Hulk Hogan. Brock Lesnar, the Big Show, Kane, all guys who didn't "deserve" to win the WWF Championship by your logic. You cannot disregard what someone does outside of the WWE. Devout fans of Punk will follow his career from ROH to WWE, which will bring them more viewers because of Punk's previous accomplishments. Not to mention Punk is a hot merchandise seller. Hell, even KAYFABE reasons, Punk deserves it. He won a match to enter MITB, he WON MITB, and he won the Championship, fair and square. Obviously, they see a bright future in Punk, which is why they have put so much faith into him. You think people will remember Umaga because he's "an unstoppable monster crushing everybody?" So was Big Show, A-Train, the Great Khali, Giant Gonzales, King Kong Bundy, Brock Lesnar, etc. Again, I like Umaga, he's a solid talent, but that's it. There is no reason that people will remember him in 10 years. Yes they will, they will remember Umaga for being one of the most agile samoan wrestlers ever... they're gonna remember Punk for not drinking, smoking and or doing drugs. Ask any casual fan, "Do you remember Punk's matches with Morrison on ECW?" and they most likely will say "Kind of forget them all". Ric Flair was worldwide known at that time, he worked in the NWA. ROH is not NWA... and I'm saying Punk doesn't deserve ALL of what hes got, I wish people would stop putting words into my mouth by saying he doesn't deserve the world title. Personally, I don't think he derseved it yet, eventually he should have got it, but for a guy who debuted in 2006 and got everything and its mother? I don't think so... The Undertaker didn't win MITB two times, the IC title, the ECW title and everything else. Different story...
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Post by Gazza on Jun 8, 2009 15:07:37 GMT -5
Yeah. He's awesome in the ring. Been booked just as badly as Punk has. And got jackstinky poop. How can you say Umaga has done more than Punk? Just look at the facts. CM Punk- 2x World Champion 2x Money In the Bank 1x Intercontinental Champion 1 x ECW Champion 1x World Tag Team Champion Umaga- 2x Intercontinetal Champion So,Umaga has done more how?
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Post by jfinnomore on Jun 8, 2009 15:11:28 GMT -5
You're absolutely right, Umaga has NOT done all of those things. Punk has. So why does Punk not deserve it from all those accomplishments? He had one GREAT match with Cena, and a few good ones with the others. CM Punk has had GREAT matches with Jericho, and some good ones with Jeff Hardy, John Morrison, and Rey Mysterio, among others. Your "logic" BAFFLES me. Punk had has MANY more solid->good->great matches with people than Umaga has. And I like Umaga too. Your argument is that Punk hasn't done anything to "deserve" the Championship in the WWE, right? Anything outside of WWE is irrelevant? I'll hark back to Jimmy's post in case you missed it. Ric Flair shouldn't have won the 1992 Royal Rumble then. If Punk's five star matches with Samoa Joe don't count, why should Flair's with Steamboat? He hadn't done anything in the WWF. Hulk Hogan didn't do anything do deserve winning the WWF Championship from the Iron Sheik. The Undertaker did nothing to deserve winning it from Hulk Hogan. Brock Lesnar, the Big Show, Kane, all guys who didn't "deserve" to win the WWF Championship by your logic. You cannot disregard what someone does outside of the WWE. Devout fans of Punk will follow his career from ROH to WWE, which will bring them more viewers because of Punk's previous accomplishments. Not to mention Punk is a hot merchandise seller. Hell, even KAYFABE reasons, Punk deserves it. He won a match to enter MITB, he WON MITB, and he won the Championship, fair and square. Obviously, they see a bright future in Punk, which is why they have put so much faith into him. You think people will remember Umaga because he's "an unstoppable monster crushing everybody?" So was Big Show, A-Train, the Great Khali, Giant Gonzales, King Kong Bundy, Brock Lesnar, etc. Again, I like Umaga, he's a solid talent, but that's it. There is no reason that people will remember him in 10 years. Yes they will, they will remember Umaga for being one of the most agile samoan wrestlers ever... they're gonna remember Punk for not drinking, smoking and or doing drugs. Ask any casual fan, "Do you remember Punk's matches with Morrison on ECW?" and they most likely will say "Kind of forget them all". Ric Flair was worldwide known at that time, he worked in the NWA. ROH is not NWA... and I'm saying Punk doesn't deserve ALL of what hes got, I wish people would stop putting words into my mouth by saying he doesn't deserve the world title. Personally, I don't think he derseved it yet, eventually he should have got it, but for a guy who debuted in 2006 and got everything and its mother? I don't think so... The Undertaker didn't win MITB two times, the IC title, the ECW title and everything else. Different story... what about Jericho? he was in WWE for 2 years when he got the world title, not to mention he beat the two biggest stars in the E at the time to claim it to boot.
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Post by Hammersmith Hardman on Jun 8, 2009 15:13:06 GMT -5
Yeah. He's awesome in the ring. Been booked just as badly as Punk has. And got jackstinky poop. How can you say Umaga has done more than Punk? Just look at the facts. CM Punk- 2x World Champion 2x Money In the Bank 1x Intercontinental Champion 1 x ECW Champion 1x World Tag Team Champion Umaga- 2x Intercontinetal Champion So,Umaga has done more how? Not our fault, that the creative team creams themselves over Punk. I would rather have Umaga with all those title reigns, at least he's credible.
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Post by sxexhxc on Jun 8, 2009 15:13:45 GMT -5
Yes they will, they will remember Umaga for being one of the most agile samoan wrestlers ever... they're gonna remember Punk for not drinking, smoking and or doing drugs. Ask any casual fan, "Do you remember Punk's matches with Morrison on ECW?" and they most likely will say "Kind of forget them all". Ric Flair was worldwide known at that time, he worked in the NWA. ROH is not NWA... and I'm saying Punk doesn't deserve ALL of what hes got, I wish people would stop putting words into my mouth by saying he doesn't deserve the world title. Personally, I don't think he derseved it yet, eventually he should have got it, but for a guy who debuted in 2006 and got everything and its mother? I don't think so... The Undertaker didn't win MITB two times, the IC title, the ECW title and everything else. Different story... what about Jericho? he was in WWE for 2 years when he got the world title, not to mention he beat the two biggest stars in the E at the time to claim it to boot. Jericho hasn't won as much as Punk has, at that time... plus, Jericho is obviously more talented, so it's again, a different story... Jericho didn't get it because he didn't drink or smoke and he didn't steal it either, which makes things a hell of alot worse...
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Post by pwsphil on Jun 8, 2009 15:14:11 GMT -5
Never got to se his ROH stuff but i thought he was awesome from day 1 in the new ECW.I am happy he won last night.
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Post by WalterF on Jun 8, 2009 15:14:46 GMT -5
I definitely think Punk deserves the belt, regardless of him not being around that long.
For one thing, he's a very good worker. He has consistently good matches and to me, many of his matches have been great. If they let him hold the belt for awhile there alot of possible classic matches that can take place.
Also, WWE is still a business that needs to make money and the guy is over and sells TONS of merch. So, I think from a popularity standpoint he is main event ... or WWE wouldn't put him there. If his stuff didn't sell and if he wasn't over, WWE would not put him uptop in such a short amount of time. The only interesting part is he won the belt in a heel-like fashion so he may go heel which I'd dig.
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Post by Jimmy on Jun 8, 2009 15:15:35 GMT -5
But Punk's title reign WAS WWE's fault. There's no question about it. He wins the title and then faces Batista a bunch of times, and never goes over him. Then he faces JBL (who everyone knew was reaching the end of his rope and wasn't winning the title) in a series of matches with NO STORYLINE. They had matches and a few individual promos. I hardly remember the two ever interracting. It was COMPLETELY back on the backburner in favor of Cena vs. Batista. His title match at SummerSlam was in the middle of the card and often times he either opened RAW or had his match in the first hour. And then he gets made out to look like a tard who gets punked out by Legacy and forfeits the title not with a bang, but with a whimper. But inspite of all that, the fans STILL cheered for him. It was not a case like Randy Orton's face turn in 2004 where they just didn't buy into it at all, WWE just showed no confidence in Punk after pulling the trigger. I'm not making excuses for Punk, or anybody. I think of myself as someone who can at all times put aside personal biases and make judgements based on performance, crowd reactions, and other factors. In the case of making CM Punk a "star", it's all up to WWE and how they use him. The same goes for anybody on the roster. I find that to be the same BS excuses I've been hearing for a long LONG time now. The WWE are very saavy businessmen, they are going to put what sells first over what they are building for the future. That's the way it always has been and has always worked for them. They weren't going to slot Punk over Cena just like they didn't slot Bret Hart over Hogan. Hogan sold, Bret while popular didn't and that's the same case with Punk/Cena. The problem is, Punk didn't expand his fan base despite being champ. He had the same smarky group cheering for him during his regin as he did when he first debuted for the WWE. Wrestling is about putting asses in seats, as a businessman how could you give anymore time than what they did if Punk was failing to do his job as an entertainer? It's not entirely up to the E, superstars have to take chances, all the great ones have and so far Punk hasn't. I gave you the DX example, that was all Triple H and HBK not the WWE. Punk needs to step up and sell himself better. Whether it's a one liner, catchphrase, a motion in the ring, facial expression -ANYTHING will do because he can't continue to do nothing and expect his popularity to rise. The only excuse I will listen to is that he just wasn't ready or just isn't the right man for their future. I don't hate the man, I find him average but I'm more or less just tired of the vast majority of the excuses. This is his second opportunity at top on a show with less competition. It's put up or shut up time for Punk, if he fails this time it's not on the WWE - it's on him. Are you ing kidding me with that DX example? Yeah, they got over huge, because RUSSO wrote them to go out there every other segment and do cool guy stuff. It is not up to CM Punk to say "HEY VINCE TURN ME HEEL YOU bunghole AND LET ME BEAT EVERYBODY UP ALL THE TIME". Yeah guys get over naturally by what they do, and that's WHY Punk is as popular as he is. Remember how badly the fans wanted him to win the ECW Title after only a year in the promotion? And your Hogan/Hart example explains a lot about your opinion. Hogan getting priority over Hart in 1993 was bull sh*t, they did the same thing to Punk that they did with Bret. They pulled the trigger on Bret but 5 months in (without any ratings or buyrate dips) they put the title back on Hogan and bury Bret under Hogan. At some point you have to take a risk, and Hart and Punk are the kind of guys that fans like even though they're not jacked up monsters.
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Post by jfinnomore on Jun 8, 2009 15:15:54 GMT -5
what about Jericho? he was in WWE for 2 years when he got the world title, not to mention he beat the two biggest stars in the E at the time to claim it to boot. Jericho hasn't won as much as Punk has, at that time... plus, Jericho is obviously more talented, so it's again, a different story... Jericho didn't get it because he didn't drink or smoke and he didn't steal it either, which makes things a hell of alot worse... Jericho had 5 intercontinental runs, 1 european 1 hardcore 1 tag title run all in 2 years. So i think he's very comparable to Punk in terms of jumping out so fast.
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Post by sxexhxc on Jun 8, 2009 15:16:33 GMT -5
How can you say Umaga has done more than Punk? Just look at the facts. CM Punk- 2x World Champion 2x Money In the Bank 1x Intercontinental Champion 1 x ECW Champion 1x World Tag Team Champion Umaga- 2x Intercontinetal Champion So,Umaga has done more how? Not our fault, that the creative team creams themselves over Punk. I would rather have Umaga with all those title reigns, at least he's credible. Agreed. Umaga is way more entertaining to me, than Punk is. I hate how people bring up accomplishments as if to say they won them themselves. This debate is about, me saying that Punk DIDN'T Deserve all he got in such a short time. Nobody deserves all of that in a span of 3 years, not even MVP... Would I be happy MVP did what Punk did to Jeff? Yeah, but I'd still feel the same way about Jeff, as I do now. He deserves that damn title, over anybody on the roster. And to see him finally get it, and somebody to "cash in" out of nowhere, is just sickening to me. I'm glad he got no reaction, he f*cking deserved it.
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Post by y2jsucks on Jun 8, 2009 15:17:39 GMT -5
Unlike Punk, Jericho distinguished a character for himself, and was able to generate a decent amount of crowd reaction.
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Post by sxexhxc on Jun 8, 2009 15:18:19 GMT -5
Jericho hasn't won as much as Punk has, at that time... plus, Jericho is obviously more talented, so it's again, a different story... Jericho didn't get it because he didn't drink or smoke and he didn't steal it either, which makes things a hell of alot worse... Jericho had 5 intercontinental runs, 1 european 1 hardcore 1 tag title run all in 2 years. So i think he's very comparable to Punk in terms of jumping out so fast. He was also known to a casual audience as a WCW guy, at that time. Who (apart from the crowd in the Hammerstein Ballroom) rememebers Punk for being in ROH? If I asked a kid, did he remember Punk in ROH, what do you think he would say?
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Post by instant classic on Jun 8, 2009 15:18:47 GMT -5
How can you say Umaga has done more than Punk? Just look at the facts. CM Punk- 2x World Champion 2x Money In the Bank 1x Intercontinental Champion 1 x ECW Champion 1x World Tag Team Champion Umaga- 2x Intercontinetal Champion So,Umaga has done more how? Not our fault, that the creative team creams themselves over Punk. I would rather have Umaga with all those title reigns, at least he's credible.
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DKR
Main Eventer
It's all good...
Joined on: Feb 13, 2008 13:23:53 GMT -5
Posts: 3,916
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Post by DKR on Jun 8, 2009 15:19:01 GMT -5
As one of those people who has been a CM Punk fan for years (well since ROH mostly), I am all for him being in the main event scene in WWE. As a heel, I think he will be much more credible and believable World Champion. He is a GREAT heel, and hopefully WWE is going in that direction.
All the ingredients are there for a super heel CM Punk. He took the WHC from a battered, beloved babyface who gets so much sympathy from the fans it is crazy. I mean Jeff Hardy is basically the only top tier face in the company that NEVER gets booed (mostly because he gets love from the Cena-set fans AND the Attitude Era holdovers). There is no fan backlash because he isn't a forced face (HHH, Cena, Batista); he is cheered because the people have actually invested time into him and care about the person and the TV character.
For CM Punk to come out and blast the newly crowned WHC with two GTS and basically steal the title from him sets Punk up to be a huge natural heel. The promos can be superb between these two: straight laced Punk lecturing about his lifestyle and ripping into Hardy for having personal demons.
Hopefully WWE allows Punk to be a heel. He will be easy to hate and will be a worthy WHC, in my opinion.
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Post by v/\v on Jun 8, 2009 15:19:28 GMT -5
Yeah. He's awesome in the ring. Been booked just as badly as Punk has. And got jackstinky poop. How can you say Umaga has done more than Punk? Just look at the facts. CM Punk- 2x World Champion 2x Money In the Bank 1x Intercontinental Champion 1 x ECW Champion 1x World Tag Team Champion Umaga- 2x Intercontinetal Champion So,Umaga has done more how? Dude be serious. Title reigns are ing redundant, the fact Punk has more than means nothing especially since, except the ECW one, all were pretty pointless and did nothing to get Punk over.
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Post by jfinnomore on Jun 8, 2009 15:20:18 GMT -5
Jericho had 5 intercontinental runs, 1 european 1 hardcore 1 tag title run all in 2 years. So i think he's very comparable to Punk in terms of jumping out so fast. He was also known to a casual audience as a WCW guy, at that time. Who (apart from the crowd in the Hammerstein Ballroom) rememebers Punk for being in ROH? If I asked a kid, did he remember Punk in ROH, what do you think he would say? apples and oranges. the casual ROH fan would know who punk is just as the casual WCW fan would know who Jericho was. You were saying NO ONE deserved that much hardware in 3 years when Jericho got more then Punk has gotten thus far in 2 years so according to your logic, Jericho got it to fast.
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Post by sxexhxc on Jun 8, 2009 15:20:23 GMT -5
Unlike Punk, Jericho distinguished a character for himself, and was able to generate a decent amount of crowd reaction. And this aswell... Punk has no character, no mic time and medicore ringskills. Why on earth, does he deserve this just because he was good in another promotion? I can name 3 good matches - The Elijah Burke one at JD2007, Mystrerio in the IC title final and the one where he beat John Morrison for the belt. His Jericho matches are really nothing THAT special, he had 2 or so good matches with him, most of them were average at best. And his matches with Regal bored the crap out of me, I can't believe people actually liked this crappy storyline of both guys getting DQ'ed intentionally...
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Post by sxexhxc on Jun 8, 2009 15:23:15 GMT -5
He was also known to a casual audience as a WCW guy, at that time. Who (apart from the crowd in the Hammerstein Ballroom) rememebers Punk for being in ROH? If I asked a kid, did he remember Punk in ROH, what do you think he would say? apples and oranges. the casual ROH fan would know who punk is just as the casual WCW fan would know who Jericho was. You were saying NO ONE deserved that much hardware in 3 years when Jericho got more then Punk has gotten thus far in 2 years so according to your logic, Jericho got it to fast. Except the causal WWE fan, knew who Jericho was before he joined. Hence the HUGE pop he got when he debuted, he developed a character for himself, got over with both that and his ring work. What is CM Punk getting over with? He isn't over... he isn't over enough to get all that crap. He has no character, people like him because of his real life choices and the rest of them like him because they enjoy his matches. Nobody can say they like CM Punk as a person, considering the fact that we never even got to see his personality much on WWE TV.
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