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Post by Joey Cush on Jun 8, 2009 11:45:06 GMT -5
Did they REALLY change sh*t to shit?
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Post by jfinnomore on Jun 8, 2009 11:49:16 GMT -5
you know i liked CM Punk but what he did last night to Jeff Hardy Was Just Disgusting he ruined a Perfect moment and didnt even Give Jeff a Chance to defend himself which is complete crap , just goes to show you what cm punk is really about haha it shows CM Punk is about doing his job. I'm positive it wasn't his idea to cash in on Hardy but it was creatives idea.
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Post by Edge618 on Jun 8, 2009 12:26:45 GMT -5
Agreed- he should have waited until Summerslam, or cashed in after that sick fall from a 20-footer onto the laid out ladder placed between the barrier and the apron. He could have just mosied on up the ladder set in-ring and given us a totally surprising and neutral(or babyface) capturing of the title...Instead he completely destroys Jeff's moment, and puts the booking team in an uncomfortable situation because they had him pull a heel tactic on the biggest face they've got(seriously, in the whole company Jeff is) and now must work around the fact that noone cares about the WHC. They still want the underdog. Agreed 100%, but the sad thing is people will still defend Punk being champion. Yeah, they will, because some people are huge fans of CM Punk. If the tables were turned and it was everyone elses favorite wrestler, youd do the same thing. Im glad he's champion and he can do new things on SD!. What would Jeff do with the belt?? Feud with Edge again??
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Post by Quanthor on Jun 8, 2009 12:51:51 GMT -5
After sitting on my hands for 10 pages, I'll toss out my opinion again. I really now and always have disliked the "he doesn't deserve the title" arguement. I've had this debate about a number of guys. Sometimes you just need to pull the trigger and make a star. What had Brock Lesnar done to make himself worthy of his first title reign? Other than a match where Mick Foley made him, Orton hadn't done much of anything either as far as great matches go or time spent in the company. Did Kane 'deserve' the title in 1998 after putting on stinky poop matches and being a jobber for most of his life? Did Undertaker 'deserve' the title in 1991 after being the the WWF for a year? By most measures the answer to all of these questions is No. But I personally didn't/don't have a problem with any of them. And this list could go on and on. As a quick add on, I will say there is one guy who was given the WWE Title that was completely 'undeserved' in almost every measureable faucet and that would be Bradshaw. He had been in the Federation for three years before he finally started drawing some heat with Faaroqq in the Acolytes. By 2003 though that team had run it's course and all the fans popped for was their music and when Bradshaw hit the Clothesline from Hell. They sat on their hands through their matches, and rightfully so. But Brock Lesnar leaves and WWE decides to make JBL their new top heel. Questionable decision, but okay. He IMMEDIATELY begins making overatures at WWE Champion Eddie Guerrero in March, by April he's #1 contender without even having wrestled a match, by May he's beat Eddie by DQ, and in June he wins the WWE Title. Who did he beat in that span? El Gran Luchador. To the best of my memory that is it. He didn't beat RVD, Booker T, or any ing midcarder on the roster. The guy went from jobbing to Charlie Haas in February to jobbing to Scotty 2 Hotty and Rikishi in March to #1 contender in April. Literally. THAT is an example of building someone up horribly. And yet, WWE semi made it work by having JBL be champion for so long that the fans (the ones they didn't drive away) HAD to by into this guy as champion. Punk may not yet have that one match that defines him, but I don't see that as a problem or knock on him. He still has yet to face some of WWE biggest stars in the Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, Triple H, John Cena, etc. He's never even gotten to have a PPV match with Edge or Chris Jericho. But even without them he's managed to put on really good matches against the guys he's been programmed against in John Morrision, Elijah Burke, Umaga, JBL (of all people) and others. In conclusion I can see where the "What has he done" arguement comes from, but I just think in professional wrestling it's a moot point. That's a fair point, but Lesnar was still relatively new and Punk has been in the WWE for years now. I have never seen a superstar get as much slack and have as many excuses made for them than CM Punk has....EVER! It's not his fault he has not one memorable match or feud since being in the WWE....that's the WWE's fault for not booking him correctly. It's not his fault that he has not one memorable promo.....that's the WWE's fault for not giving him mic time. It's not his fault he failed to expand his popularity during his first WHC reign....that's the WWE's fault for thrusting him into that position and taking away the title too soon. It's not his fault he has yet to design a wrestling persona...that's the WWE's fault for restricting his liberty. Anybody that's in the know will probably tell you that's all horse sh*t, that stars are self made men, they seized the opportunity when it was given to them, they pitched ideas and created a persona that made them who they are, but why is that not the case with Punk? CM Punk has had ample amount of opportunities to shape his character, have big match moment, carry a World title, to prove to the fans and the company he a a viable star for the future, but his failures unlike anybody else aren't his fault...why? You guys raised some good points....the promos are heavily scripted, however many of them are scripted by the stars themselves. I highly doubt anybody is writing JBL, Jericho, or Cena's promos for them, but then again they do get ample time in the ring to really exploit their character. Most promos in the WWE suck nowadays and I think this is because they tend to script the promos with two or more people involved, instead of allowing them to cut a monologue backstage to develop their character more. Even still, Punk has had both opportunities backstage and in the ring to improvise or establish his persona more and in my opinion that falls on Punk for sounding too generic...not the WWE. Sometimes you have to take chances regardless of what Vince is saying backstage, DX became one of the most popular stables of all time because of that very reason. They took a chance when Vince was saying no, but they kept pushing for it to the point where Vince could no longer question their decisions due to the rise in their popularity. I also disagree with the WWE mishandling his title reign. The buildup was poorly executed(lost nearly every match since winning his first MITB), but once he captured the title the reaction was explosive and they pitted him against a guy they knew would bolster his fan support, a guy that has helped ascend the career of John Cena, a guy who always gets thunderous boos no matter who he is facing ...JBL. The WWE gave him TWO months as champion and put him against an ideal opponent to help his popularity rise, that's more than the WWE has given the majority of their superstars, but for some reason it never fell back Punk and it became WWE's responsibility. Punk has been given the world and he still doesn't have the fan suport to be a champion and that to me is a sign that he doesn't belong there. At least wait until he crafts a good persona that will get a great crowd reaction Perhaps they can bring back the whole "straight edge" persona, but I hate to see the man end up with only one memorable gimmick because if you don't evolve you really go nowhere. Maybe he's not full of ideas, maybe he's just as average as he comes across, maybe he's all "rock star" image and nothing more. Quite frankly I don't know, but I think it's time to stop giving him the benefit of the doubt and start questioning whether this man has the goods to be a top level star in the industry. It's now time for Punk.
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Post by The Best on Jun 8, 2009 12:52:04 GMT -5
Don't like him, don't hate him. I don't think he's that great really, hasn't had a memorable match in the WWE yet. Sure he's a good wrestler and has had some good matches, but none of them stand out.
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Post by y2jsucks on Jun 8, 2009 12:52:18 GMT -5
Where does it state that just because your a huge fan of someone, you have to defend him to the grave?
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Post by Edge618 on Jun 8, 2009 12:54:20 GMT -5
Where does it state that just because your a huge fan of someone, you have to defend him to the grave? Don't you have the WWE Enyclopedia??
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Post by jfinnomore on Jun 8, 2009 13:08:31 GMT -5
Don't like him, don't hate him. I don't think he's that great really, hasn't had a memorable match in the WWE yet. Sure he's a good wrestler and has had some good matches, but none of them stand out. the ones that stand out for me are his matches with JBL. Those were pretty great, but granted I'm a big fan of Punk and love JBL as a heel so maybe thats why i was so into them.
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Post by Joey Cush on Jun 8, 2009 13:16:49 GMT -5
Don't like him, don't hate him. I don't think he's that great really, hasn't had a memorable match in the WWE yet. Sure he's a good wrestler and has had some good matches, but none of them stand out. the ones that stand out for me are his matches with JBL. Those were pretty great, but granted I'm a big fan of Punk and love JBL as a heel so maybe thats why i was so into them. The main argument is that he hasn't had any memorable matches/feuds. We all know he can wrestle very good, but it's not very memorable. Mysterio Vs Bourne was a great match but it was not memorable.
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Post by The Silent Flute (joepetree) on Jun 8, 2009 13:17:38 GMT -5
i cant wait for Hardy to beat Punks ass , i was a fan of Punk but im still pissed about last night
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Post by Thick Justice on Jun 8, 2009 13:18:42 GMT -5
I love Punk one of my favorites. He is my role model.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2009 13:21:15 GMT -5
Punk has worked hard to get where he is at and hasnt let substance abuse hold him back. Jeff Hardy has a history of drug problems and has two recorded strikes right now. So Punk cashing in on Hardy does not make Hardy look bad. Not to mention Jeff just finished a hellious ladder match. Not to mention its not even certain if Jeff is going to sign again because hes like to live on the edge or whatever his reasoning is for holding out. Facts are Jeff isnt the most reliable guy on the roster and Punk is one of them.
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Post by renownedwarrior76 on Jun 8, 2009 13:25:31 GMT -5
hes gettin borin but the idea of him beingg a heel is pretty cool, but hes not ready to be world champ
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Post by jfinnomore on Jun 8, 2009 13:29:13 GMT -5
hes gettin borin but the idea of him beingg a heel is pretty cool, but hes not ready to be world champ correction 2 time world champ
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2009 13:30:29 GMT -5
hes gettin borin but the idea of him beingg a heel is pretty cool, but hes not ready to be world champ I love when people say someone inst ready to be world champion. Punks been in this business awhile, and hes been in the WWE about three years. Within their first three years with the WWE John Cena, Batista, Steve Austin, the Rock, among others became champion.
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Post by The Future on Jun 8, 2009 13:43:51 GMT -5
That's a fair point, but Lesnar was still relatively new and Punk has been in the WWE for years now. I have never seen a superstar get as much slack and have as many excuses made for them than CM Punk has....EVER! It's not his fault he has not one memorable match or feud since being in the WWE....that's the WWE's fault for not booking him correctly. It's not his fault that he has not one memorable promo.....that's the WWE's fault for not giving him mic time. It's not his fault he failed to expand his popularity during his first WHC reign....that's the WWE's fault for thrusting him into that position and taking away the title too soon. It's not his fault he has yet to design a wrestling persona...that's the WWE's fault for restricting his liberty. Anybody that's in the know will probably tell you that's all horse sh*t, that stars are self made men, they seized the opportunity when it was given to them, they pitched ideas and created a persona that made them who they are, but why is that not the case with Punk? CM Punk has had ample amount of opportunities to shape his character, have big match moment, carry a World title, to prove to the fans and the company he a a viable star for the future, but his failures unlike anybody else aren't his fault...why? You guys raised some good points....the promos are heavily scripted, however many of them are scripted by the stars themselves. I highly doubt anybody is writing JBL, Jericho, or Cena's promos for them, but then again they do get ample time in the ring to really exploit their character. Most promos in the WWE suck nowadays and I think this is because they tend to script the promos with two or more people involved, instead of allowing them to cut a monologue backstage to develop their character more. Even still, Punk has had both opportunities backstage and in the ring to improvise or establish his persona more and in my opinion that falls on Punk for sounding too generic...not the WWE. Sometimes you have to take chances regardless of what Vince is saying backstage, DX became one of the most popular stables of all time because of that very reason. They took a chance when Vince was saying no, but they kept pushing for it to the point where Vince could no longer question their decisions due to the rise in their popularity. I also disagree with the WWE mishandling his title reign. The buildup was poorly executed(lost nearly every match since winning his first MITB), but once he captured the title the reaction was explosive and they pitted him against a guy they knew would bolster his fan support, a guy that has helped ascend the career of John Cena, a guy who always gets thunderous boos no matter who he is facing ...JBL. The WWE gave him TWO months as champion and put him against an ideal opponent to help his popularity rise, that's more than the WWE has given the majority of their superstars, but for some reason it never fell back Punk and it became WWE's responsibility. Punk has been given the world and he still doesn't have the fan suport to be a champion and that to me is a sign that he doesn't belong there. At least wait until he crafts a good persona that will get a great crowd reaction Perhaps they can bring back the whole "straight edge" persona, but I hate to see the man end up with only one memorable gimmick because if you don't evolve you really go nowhere. Maybe he's not full of ideas, maybe he's just as average as he comes across, maybe he's all "rock star" image and nothing more. Quite frankly I don't know, but I think it's time to stop giving him the benefit of the doubt and start questioning whether this man has the goods to be a top level star in the industry. It's now time for Punk. *Applauds* You know, I honestly don't think you can argue this issue better than in this post right here. While I feel the blame still lies partly in the camp of the Creative team- Punk does have tons of excuses made for him. I just don't really see the appeal of him currently, and it's because of his complete lack of character development and any traits to pull you in and care about him. Well said, Quanthor.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2009 13:44:12 GMT -5
i'm indifferent cuz I was on the cm punk band wagon from the time he debut up until wrestlemania 25. When he won MITB at WM24 I marked out no doubt. But when he won this year I was really annoyed. I didn't want a repeat winner cuz to me the match puts a fresh face in the main event scene(or they go the way of mr. Kennedy) & I feel that win was wasted on him. After that I was happy he was drafted off raw & off my tv since I only watch smackdown when I remember it's on. And last night at extreme rules made me dislike him even more. I think it's cool that he's champ but at the same time I hate it. I would rather have punk cash it in for a match like RVD. If he goes heel then that'll be a good thing I'll like him alot more but right now idc either way
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Post by Mr. PerpetuaLynch Motion on Jun 8, 2009 13:48:59 GMT -5
I just rewatched the PPV and I have come to this conclusion. Given the crowd reaction he got after beating Jeff Hardy (arguably the number 1 face in the WWE), the way he was carrying himself around in his celebration basically rubbing it in all of Hardy's fans' faces, the facial expressions after Jeff kicked out and after Jeff rolled him up, the way this thread is going, there is honestly no way I can feasibly see the WWE keeping CM Punk as a face. I mean there are so many other people Punk could face as a heel (Hardy, Cena, Batista, Triple H, etc), turning him heel at this point would be as simple as him saying that the fans still don't believe in his abilities to be champion despite winning it yet a second time... It all fits so perfectly and I can see a full on heel turn come Smackdown.
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Post by sxexhxc on Jun 8, 2009 13:56:33 GMT -5
Agreed 100%, but the sad thing is people will still defend Punk being champion. Yeah, they will, because some people are huge fans of CM Punk. If the tables were turned and it was everyone elses favorite wrestler, youd do the same thing. Im glad he's champion and he can do new things on SD!. What would Jeff do with the belt?? Feud with Edge again?? Again, it's not just the fact that I hate how it was done, it was the fact that I hate who it was done BY. You still haven't named me one thing he has done to deserve all of this crap, besides bring up ROH matches...
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Post by HugoOne on Jun 8, 2009 13:58:28 GMT -5
Yeah, they will, because some people are huge fans of CM Punk. If the tables were turned and it was everyone elses favorite wrestler, youd do the same thing. Im glad he's champion and he can do new things on SD!. What would Jeff do with the belt?? Feud with Edge again?? Again, it's not just the fact that I hate how it was done, it was the fact that I hate who it was done BY. You still haven't named me one thing he has done to deserve all of this crap, besides bring up ROH matches... Was I mistaken or did I see a few pages back that you want UMAGA to take the belt off him? What the hell has Umaga done to deserve it? A whole lot less than Punk.
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