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Post by sxexhxc on Jun 8, 2009 14:00:09 GMT -5
Again, it's not just the fact that I hate how it was done, it was the fact that I hate who it was done BY. You still haven't named me one thing he has done to deserve all of this crap, besides bring up ROH matches... Was I mistaken or did I see a few pages back that you want UMAGA to take the belt off him? What the hell has Umaga done to deserve it? A whole lot less than Punk. Umaga has done enough to become WWE Champion. He's had great matches with Cena, Jeff Hardy, Triple H and more. Besides, Umaga isn't a former 2 time MITB winner, Intercontinental Champion, ECW Champion, Tag Team Champion and 2 time World Heavyweight Champion. So that argument is blank...
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Post by Edge618 on Jun 8, 2009 14:02:42 GMT -5
Yeah, they will, because some people are huge fans of CM Punk. If the tables were turned and it was everyone elses favorite wrestler, youd do the same thing. Im glad he's champion and he can do new things on SD!. What would Jeff do with the belt?? Feud with Edge again?? Again, it's not just the fact that I hate how it was done, it was the fact that I hate who it was done BY. You still haven't named me one thing he has done to deserve all of this crap, besides bring up ROH matches... He's been in the business nearly nearly 10 years. He's been in the WWE for 3. And a lot of people have got the belt in their 1st 3 years. He came in with a pretty good following, became the 1st real breakout star of ECW, and he consistently puts on good matches. And even though you crap on his Straight Edge thing for it being the right place at the right time, its still a good character, and he deservered to be pushed for staying clean. He's an example, stay clean, and be a champion. I know you dont like who it was done by, but i dont see how you can say he's undeserving, when you'd gladly hand the belt over to someone who is even more undeserving by your standards, than CM Punk.
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Post by Edge618 on Jun 8, 2009 14:06:36 GMT -5
Was I mistaken or did I see a few pages back that you want UMAGA to take the belt off him? What the hell has Umaga done to deserve it? A whole lot less than Punk. Umaga has done enough to become WWE Champion. He's had great matches with Cena, Jeff Hardy, Triple H and more. Besides, Umaga isn't a former 2 time MITB winner, Intercontinental Champion, ECW Champion, Tag Team Champion and 2 time World Heavyweight Champion. So that argument is blank... Dude im not arguing about it with you anymore. You know nothing, you think having great matches with Cena, HHH, and Jeff Hardy make you deserving of the world title. And Umaga is a former IC champion. And look at the 3 guys that you say Umaga had great matches with, 3 guys that CM Punk hasn't even touched besides his cash in. Thats whats great about Punk, he's fresh, they got him over in the undercard, with out having to have the top stars put him over. So now when he's in the main event, there's a lot of possibilites.
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Post by jfinnomore on Jun 8, 2009 14:08:52 GMT -5
Was I mistaken or did I see a few pages back that you want UMAGA to take the belt off him? What the hell has Umaga done to deserve it? A whole lot less than Punk. Umaga has done enough to become WWE Champion. He's had great matches with Cena, Jeff Hardy, Triple H and more. Besides, Umaga isn't a former 2 time MITB winner, Intercontinental Champion, ECW Champion, Tag Team Champion and 2 time World Heavyweight Champion. So that argument is blank... if Umaga has done enough to be world champ then Punk MORE then deserves it. He's had great feuds with Chavo, JBL, and a short lived one with Regal. He's been with the company for 3 years and has never been out due to injury. He's more over with the fans then Umaga. So to even think Umaga deserves it more then Punk is rather silly.
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bencw
Main Eventer
30 refs. aka ecworiginal.
Joined on: Dec 22, 2008 8:04:49 GMT -5
Posts: 4,273
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Post by bencw on Jun 8, 2009 14:10:07 GMT -5
just saw his win over jeff for the first time...the crowd seems pretty much dead for when he actually wins it. i wouldn't have minded as much if edge won, and he took it from edge.....should have been hardys night IMO. don't find punk the most entertaining there is-found the samoan strap match pretty dire imo, i dunno, but i don't think punk is really the man for the title at the moment.thats all i'm going to say
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Honkey
Mid-Carder
Problem?
Joined on: Nov 28, 2008 13:36:35 GMT -5
Posts: 358
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Post by Honkey on Jun 8, 2009 14:12:46 GMT -5
I like CM Punk, but to me he kinda ruined the PPV for me. The ladder match was spectacular for me, I hadn't seen Jeff Hardy wrestle in almost two months(Dish Network here doesn't support My Network TV), and when he won the belt, all was good, my favorite wrestler won the belt, and wrestled a good match. Happy Day right, NO!!! After the replays were over I pictured Hardy holding the title highly above his head on top the ladder over Edge's dangling body, didn't exactly happen. JR comes in the with a microphone, the first sign of trouble in my book, that almost never happens after a PPV World Title victory, and of course it's followed five seconds later by the opening to Punk's theme music. Mine and my father's reaction: "Bullshit!","What the Hell?!?", and "You've gotta be kidding me." Punk wins belt, I'm upset. CM better be a heel after this because there would be no other explanation for why he chose that time and fellow face competitor Jef Hardy. If think about it, Punk did a similiar thing last year when he won against Edge, but Edge was a heel, and it only made sense punk would remain face. If you aslo payed attention Punk got a negative reaction after winning the belt, so they better turn him heel or this move would've made no sense. I like Punk, but I just don't like the fashion in which he won the belt.
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Post by sxexhxc on Jun 8, 2009 14:13:21 GMT -5
Umaga has done enough to become WWE Champion. He's had great matches with Cena, Jeff Hardy, Triple H and more. Besides, Umaga isn't a former 2 time MITB winner, Intercontinental Champion, ECW Champion, Tag Team Champion and 2 time World Heavyweight Champion. So that argument is blank... Dude im not arguing about it with you anymore. You know nothing, you think having great matches with Cena, HHH, and Jeff Hardy make you deserving of the world title. And Umaga is a former IC champion. And look at the 3 guys that you say Umaga had great matches with, 3 guys that CM Punk hasn't even touched besides his cash in. Thats whats great about Punk, he's fresh, they got him over in the undercard, with out having to have the top stars put him over. So now when he's in the main event, there's a lot of possibilites. I like how you say you're done arguing, but come back anyway. He has everything because he is straight edge. Theres no other reason to hand him everything. And who honestly remembers his JBL feud? Atleast people remember Umaga coming in as unstoppable and crushing everybody. Umaga deserves the world belt, I don't know about deserving all that Punk has won... personally, I don't think anybody deserves THAT much in a span of 3 years...
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Post by Wato Stan Account on Jun 8, 2009 14:19:31 GMT -5
Dude im not arguing about it with you anymore. You know nothing, you think having great matches with Cena, HHH, and Jeff Hardy make you deserving of the world title. And Umaga is a former IC champion. And look at the 3 guys that you say Umaga had great matches with, 3 guys that CM Punk hasn't even touched besides his cash in. Thats whats great about Punk, he's fresh, they got him over in the undercard, with out having to have the top stars put him over. So now when he's in the main event, there's a lot of possibilites. I like how you say you're done arguing, but come back anyway. He has everything because he is straight edge. Theres no other reason to hand him everything. And who honestly remembers his JBL feud? Atleast people remember Umaga coming in as unstoppable and crushing everybody. Umaga deserves the world belt, I don't know about deserving all that Punk has won... personally, I don't think anybody deserves THAT much in a span of 3 years... No one in wrestling deserves anything, it's not a real sport. Yes, they earn their way to WWE. But once they get there, anything goes. If you're booked to win, you're booked to win. Vince had Punk beat Umaga so he would look better when he won later, duh.
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Post by Jimmy on Jun 8, 2009 14:25:29 GMT -5
After sitting on my hands for 10 pages, I'll toss out my opinion again. I really now and always have disliked the "he doesn't deserve the title" arguement. I've had this debate about a number of guys. Sometimes you just need to pull the trigger and make a star. What had Brock Lesnar done to make himself worthy of his first title reign? Other than a match where Mick Foley made him, Orton hadn't done much of anything either as far as great matches go or time spent in the company. Did Kane 'deserve' the title in 1998 after putting on stinky poop matches and being a jobber for most of his life? Did Undertaker 'deserve' the title in 1991 after being the the WWF for a year? By most measures the answer to all of these questions is No. But I personally didn't/don't have a problem with any of them. And this list could go on and on. As a quick add on, I will say there is one guy who was given the WWE Title that was completely 'undeserved' in almost every measureable faucet and that would be Bradshaw. He had been in the Federation for three years before he finally started drawing some heat with Faaroqq in the Acolytes. By 2003 though that team had run it's course and all the fans popped for was their music and when Bradshaw hit the Clothesline from Hell. They sat on their hands through their matches, and rightfully so. But Brock Lesnar leaves and WWE decides to make JBL their new top heel. Questionable decision, but okay. He IMMEDIATELY begins making overatures at WWE Champion Eddie Guerrero in March, by April he's #1 contender without even having wrestled a match, by May he's beat Eddie by DQ, and in June he wins the WWE Title. Who did he beat in that span? El Gran Luchador. To the best of my memory that is it. He didn't beat RVD, Booker T, or any ing midcarder on the roster. The guy went from jobbing to Charlie Haas in February to jobbing to Scotty 2 Hotty and Rikishi in March to #1 contender in April. Literally. THAT is an example of building someone up horribly. And yet, WWE semi made it work by having JBL be champion for so long that the fans (the ones they didn't drive away) HAD to by into this guy as champion. Punk may not yet have that one match that defines him, but I don't see that as a problem or knock on him. He still has yet to face some of WWE biggest stars in the Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, Triple H, John Cena, etc. He's never even gotten to have a PPV match with Edge or Chris Jericho. But even without them he's managed to put on really good matches against the guys he's been programmed against in John Morrision, Elijah Burke, Umaga, JBL (of all people) and others. In conclusion I can see where the "What has he done" arguement comes from, but I just think in professional wrestling it's a moot point. That's a fair point, but Lesnar was still relatively new and Punk has been in the WWE for years now. I have never seen a superstar get as much slack and have as many excuses made for them than CM Punk has....EVER! It's not his fault he has not one memorable match or feud since being in the WWE....that's the WWE's fault for not booking him correctly. It's not his fault that he has not one memorable promo.....that's the WWE's fault for not giving him mic time. It's not his fault he failed to expand his popularity during his first WHC reign....that's the WWE's fault for thrusting him into that position and taking away the title too soon. It's not his fault he has yet to design a wrestling persona...that's the WWE's fault for restricting his liberty. Anybody that's in the know will probably tell you that's all horse sh*t, that stars are self made men, they seized the opportunity when it was given to them, they pitched ideas and created a persona that made them who they are, but why is that not the case with Punk? CM Punk has had ample amount of opportunities to shape his character, have big match moment, carry a World title, to prove to the fans and the company he a a viable star for the future, but his failures unlike anybody else aren't his fault...why? You guys raised some good points....the promos are heavily scripted, however many of them are scripted by the stars themselves. I highly doubt anybody is writing JBL, Jericho, or Cena's promos for them, but then again they do get ample time in the ring to really exploit their character. Most promos in the WWE suck nowadays and I think this is because they tend to script the promos with two or more people involved, instead of allowing them to cut a monologue backstage to develop their character more. Even still, Punk has had both opportunities backstage and in the ring to improvise or establish his persona more and in my opinion that falls on Punk for sounding too generic...not the WWE. Sometimes you have to take chances regardless of what Vince is saying backstage, DX became one of the most popular stables of all time because of that very reason. They took a chance when Vince was saying no, but they kept pushing for it to the point where Vince could no longer question their decisions due to the rise in their popularity. I also disagree with the WWE mishandling his title reign. The buildup was poorly executed(lost nearly every match since winning his first MITB), but once he captured the title the reaction was explosive and they pitted him against a guy they knew would bolster his fan support, a guy that has helped ascend the career of John Cena, a guy who always gets thunderous boos no matter who he is facing ...JBL. The WWE gave him TWO months as champion and put him against an ideal opponent to help his popularity rise, that's more than the WWE has given the majority of their superstars, but for some reason it never fell back Punk and it became WWE's responsibility. Punk has been given the world and he still doesn't have the fan suport to be a champion and that to me is a sign that he doesn't belong there. At least wait until he crafts a good persona that will get a great crowd reaction Perhaps they can bring back the whole "straight edge" persona, but I hate to see the man end up with only one memorable gimmick because if you don't evolve you really go nowhere. Maybe he's not full of ideas, maybe he's just as average as he comes across, maybe he's all "rock star" image and nothing more. Quite frankly I don't know, but I think it's time to stop giving him the benefit of the doubt and start questioning whether this man has the goods to be a top level star in the industry. It's now time for Punk. But Punk's title reign WAS WWE's fault. There's no question about it. He wins the title and then faces Batista a bunch of times, and never goes over him. Then he faces JBL (who everyone knew was reaching the end of his rope and wasn't winning the title) in a series of matches with NO STORYLINE. They had matches and a few individual promos. I hardly remember the two ever interracting. It was COMPLETELY back on the backburner in favor of Cena vs. Batista. His title match at SummerSlam was in the middle of the card and often times he either opened RAW or had his match in the first hour. And then he gets made out to look like a tard who gets punked out by Legacy and forfeits the title not with a bang, but with a whimper. But inspite of all that, the fans STILL cheered for him. It was not a case like Randy Orton's face turn in 2004 where they just didn't buy into it at all, WWE just showed no confidence in Punk after pulling the trigger. I'm not making excuses for Punk, or anybody. I think of myself as someone who can at all times put aside personal biases and make judgements based on performance, crowd reactions, and other factors. In the case of making CM Punk a "star", it's all up to WWE and how they use him. The same goes for anybody on the roster.
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Post by jfinnomore on Jun 8, 2009 14:25:51 GMT -5
Dude im not arguing about it with you anymore. You know nothing, you think having great matches with Cena, HHH, and Jeff Hardy make you deserving of the world title. And Umaga is a former IC champion. And look at the 3 guys that you say Umaga had great matches with, 3 guys that CM Punk hasn't even touched besides his cash in. Thats whats great about Punk, he's fresh, they got him over in the undercard, with out having to have the top stars put him over. So now when he's in the main event, there's a lot of possibilites. I like how you say you're done arguing, but come back anyway. He has everything because he is straight edge. Theres no other reason to hand him everything. And who honestly remembers his JBL feud? Atleast people remember Umaga coming in as unstoppable and crushing everybody. Umaga deserves the world belt, I don't know about deserving all that Punk has won... personally, I don't think anybody deserves THAT much in a span of 3 years... i loved his JBL feud. Those matches were great. Makes me miss JBL just thinking about it.
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Post by AdamBomb on Jun 8, 2009 14:26:19 GMT -5
I just like that everyone swore up and down that Punk would be the first to lose upon cashing it in.
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Post by HugoOne on Jun 8, 2009 14:29:18 GMT -5
Was I mistaken or did I see a few pages back that you want UMAGA to take the belt off him? What the hell has Umaga done to deserve it? A whole lot less than Punk. Umaga has done enough to become WWE Champion. He's had great matches with Cena, Jeff Hardy, Triple H and more. Besides, Umaga isn't a former 2 time MITB winner, Intercontinental Champion, ECW Champion, Tag Team Champion and 2 time World Heavyweight Champion. So that argument is blank... You're absolutely right, Umaga has NOT done all of those things. Punk has. So why does Punk not deserve it from all those accomplishments? He had one GREAT match with Cena, and a few good ones with the others. CM Punk has had GREAT matches with Jericho, and some good ones with Jeff Hardy, John Morrison, and Rey Mysterio, among others. Your "logic" BAFFLES me. Punk had has MANY more solid->good->great matches with people than Umaga has. And I like Umaga too. Your argument is that Punk hasn't done anything to "deserve" the Championship in the WWE, right? Anything outside of WWE is irrelevant? I'll hark back to Jimmy's post in case you missed it. Ric Flair shouldn't have won the 1992 Royal Rumble then. If Punk's five star matches with Samoa Joe don't count, why should Flair's with Steamboat? He hadn't done anything in the WWF. Hulk Hogan didn't do anything do deserve winning the WWF Championship from the Iron Sheik. The Undertaker did nothing to deserve winning it from Hulk Hogan. Brock Lesnar, the Big Show, Kane, all guys who didn't "deserve" to win the WWF Championship by your logic. You cannot disregard what someone does outside of the WWE. Devout fans of Punk will follow his career from ROH to WWE, which will bring them more viewers because of Punk's previous accomplishments. Not to mention Punk is a hot merchandise seller. Hell, even KAYFABE reasons, Punk deserves it. He won a match to enter MITB, he WON MITB, and he won the Championship, fair and square. Obviously, they see a bright future in Punk, which is why they have put so much faith into him. You think people will remember Umaga because he's "an unstoppable monster crushing everybody?" So was Big Show, A-Train, the Great Khali, Giant Gonzales, King Kong Bundy, Brock Lesnar, etc. Again, I like Umaga, he's a solid talent, but that's it. There is no reason that people will remember him in 10 years.
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Post by Mr. Orange on Jun 8, 2009 14:31:48 GMT -5
I'm happy he got the belt again, even happier he's turning heel. For anyone who hasn't seen his earlier work, he's an AMAZING heel. So this title run should be an interesting one if it lasts longer than a month and he's given some room to say what he wants.
As a huge Punk fan, I couldn't be any happier.
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Post by ratedrrocker on Jun 8, 2009 14:33:31 GMT -5
Once again Jeff was lucky to become world champion(as I said after Armagedon) but oh well. Yeah I suppose you get people like Jeff who has been in more than most people who have won major titles(like ECW,WWE and WHC) I think most pissed off Jeff fans need to grow up a little more,come on. Jeff will not die this week or something so he has some more time to do it again but as WWE have changed the WHC 6 (if I'm correct) times this year. So I don't see Punk losing anytime soon (which is good for us Punk fans).
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Post by Quanthor on Jun 8, 2009 14:51:32 GMT -5
That's a fair point, but Lesnar was still relatively new and Punk has been in the WWE for years now. I have never seen a superstar get as much slack and have as many excuses made for them than CM Punk has....EVER! It's not his fault he has not one memorable match or feud since being in the WWE....that's the WWE's fault for not booking him correctly. It's not his fault that he has not one memorable promo.....that's the WWE's fault for not giving him mic time. It's not his fault he failed to expand his popularity during his first WHC reign....that's the WWE's fault for thrusting him into that position and taking away the title too soon. It's not his fault he has yet to design a wrestling persona...that's the WWE's fault for restricting his liberty. Anybody that's in the know will probably tell you that's all horse sh*t, that stars are self made men, they seized the opportunity when it was given to them, they pitched ideas and created a persona that made them who they are, but why is that not the case with Punk? CM Punk has had ample amount of opportunities to shape his character, have big match moment, carry a World title, to prove to the fans and the company he a a viable star for the future, but his failures unlike anybody else aren't his fault...why? You guys raised some good points....the promos are heavily scripted, however many of them are scripted by the stars themselves. I highly doubt anybody is writing JBL, Jericho, or Cena's promos for them, but then again they do get ample time in the ring to really exploit their character. Most promos in the WWE suck nowadays and I think this is because they tend to script the promos with two or more people involved, instead of allowing them to cut a monologue backstage to develop their character more. Even still, Punk has had both opportunities backstage and in the ring to improvise or establish his persona more and in my opinion that falls on Punk for sounding too generic...not the WWE. Sometimes you have to take chances regardless of what Vince is saying backstage, DX became one of the most popular stables of all time because of that very reason. They took a chance when Vince was saying no, but they kept pushing for it to the point where Vince could no longer question their decisions due to the rise in their popularity. I also disagree with the WWE mishandling his title reign. The buildup was poorly executed(lost nearly every match since winning his first MITB), but once he captured the title the reaction was explosive and they pitted him against a guy they knew would bolster his fan support, a guy that has helped ascend the career of John Cena, a guy who always gets thunderous boos no matter who he is facing ...JBL. The WWE gave him TWO months as champion and put him against an ideal opponent to help his popularity rise, that's more than the WWE has given the majority of their superstars, but for some reason it never fell back Punk and it became WWE's responsibility. Punk has been given the world and he still doesn't have the fan suport to be a champion and that to me is a sign that he doesn't belong there. At least wait until he crafts a good persona that will get a great crowd reaction Perhaps they can bring back the whole "straight edge" persona, but I hate to see the man end up with only one memorable gimmick because if you don't evolve you really go nowhere. Maybe he's not full of ideas, maybe he's just as average as he comes across, maybe he's all "rock star" image and nothing more. Quite frankly I don't know, but I think it's time to stop giving him the benefit of the doubt and start questioning whether this man has the goods to be a top level star in the industry. It's now time for Punk. But Punk's title reign WAS WWE's fault. There's no question about it. He wins the title and then faces Batista a bunch of times, and never goes over him. Then he faces JBL (who everyone knew was reaching the end of his rope and wasn't winning the title) in a series of matches with NO STORYLINE. They had matches and a few individual promos. I hardly remember the two ever interracting. It was COMPLETELY back on the backburner in favor of Cena vs. Batista. His title match at SummerSlam was in the middle of the card and often times he either opened RAW or had his match in the first hour. And then he gets made out to look like a tard who gets punked out by Legacy and forfeits the title not with a bang, but with a whimper. But inspite of all that, the fans STILL cheered for him. It was not a case like Randy Orton's face turn in 2004 where they just didn't buy into it at all, WWE just showed no confidence in Punk after pulling the trigger. I'm not making excuses for Punk, or anybody. I think of myself as someone who can at all times put aside personal biases and make judgements based on performance, crowd reactions, and other factors. In the case of making CM Punk a "star", it's all up to WWE and how they use him. The same goes for anybody on the roster. I find that to be the same BS excuses I've been hearing for a long LONG time now. The WWE are very saavy businessmen, they are going to put what sells first over what they are building for the future. That's the way it always has been and has always worked for them. They weren't going to slot Punk over Cena just like they didn't slot Bret Hart over Hogan. Hogan sold, Bret while popular didn't and that's the same case with Punk/Cena. The problem is, Punk didn't expand his fan base despite being champ. He had the same smarky group cheering for him during his regin as he did when he first debuted for the WWE. Wrestling is about putting asses in seats, as a businessman how could you give anymore time than what they did if Punk was failing to do his job as an entertainer? It's not entirely up to the E, superstars have to take chances, all the great ones have and so far Punk hasn't. I gave you the DX example, that was all Triple H and HBK not the WWE. Punk needs to step up and sell himself better. Whether it's a one liner, catchphrase, a motion in the ring, facial expression -ANYTHING will do because he can't continue to do nothing and expect his popularity to rise. The only excuse I will listen to is that he just wasn't ready or just isn't the right man for their future. I don't hate the man, I find him average but I'm more or less just tired of the vast majority of the excuses. This is his second opportunity at top on a show with less competition. It's put up or shut up time for Punk, if he fails this time it's not on the WWE - it's on him.
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Post by v/\v on Jun 8, 2009 14:57:02 GMT -5
Umaga has been around (WWE) longer and done a load more than Punk, for sure.
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Post by jfinnomore on Jun 8, 2009 14:58:06 GMT -5
Umaga has been around (WWE) longer and done a load more than Punk, for sure. hasn't won as many titles as him
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Post by Gazza on Jun 8, 2009 14:59:46 GMT -5
Umaga has been around (WWE) longer and done a load more than Punk, for sure. Seriously?
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D-Rock
Main Eventer
Joined on: Oct 10, 2007 21:36:13 GMT -5
Posts: 2,947
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Post by D-Rock on Jun 8, 2009 15:00:38 GMT -5
Since his first ecw title match I don't find him to be much of anything. He's not that tgreat anymore, his very bland and stale. He needs a very good heel turn. He was awesome as a heel, (in ROH) as a face he's got less and less fan reaction, live shows don't have loaded pops, like TV.
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Post by Mr. PerpetuaLynch Motion on Jun 8, 2009 15:02:09 GMT -5
Eh, why do so many people have such a big problem with so many other people liking the fact that CM Punk is champion? Doesn't make sense to me :/
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