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Post by Kliquid on Jun 22, 2009 21:14:30 GMT -5
"Clutch" has more to do with performing in the playoffs, at key moments, which Joe Montana did.
As a Cowboys fan, I'm well aware that regular season victories only get you so far. My team hasn't won in the playoffs in over 10 years.
Montana was 4-0 in Superbowls... He was 83/122 (68%) for 1,142 yards, 11 touchdowns, and 0 interceptions. His Superbowl career QB rating was a staggering 127.8. He also ran for 101 yards and 2 touchdowns in those Superbowls.
Elway, on the other hand, was 2-3 in Superbowls... He was 76/152 (50%) for 1,128 yards, 3 touchdowns, and 8 interceptions. His career Superbowl QB rating is a god-awful 59.3.
Don't talk to me about John Elway being 'clutch' when he was god awful like that. Hell, in his first Superbowl victory, he only threw for 123 yards, 0 touchdowns, and 1 INT. That's pathetic. That's not clutch at all. If Terrell Davis wasn't toting the rock 30 times in that game, the Broncos lose in a landslide.
I don't know who you're trying to convince right now... Yourself, or the rest of us?
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Post by captain master talbot on Jun 22, 2009 21:17:59 GMT -5
As a Cowboys fan, I'm well aware that regular season victories only get you so far. My team hasn't won in the playoffs in over 10 years. 4557 days.
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Post by Jean-Ralphio on Jun 22, 2009 21:26:15 GMT -5
That's right, keep suckin on that Denver Bronco teat. The reason you think John Elway is the best QB ever is because you're from Colorado. Look, no one is trying to argue that John Elway isn't good. He's one of the best ever. But the first post you made when you came into this thread is the reason that people are berating you. He's only mentioned once because, quite frankly, no one else thinks he's the best ever. When it comes down to it, John Elway isn't the best ever at anything... In terms of clutch play-making, I'd rather have Joe Montana. When it comes to career statistics, Marino threw for 10,000 more yards, 120 more touchdowns, and just 26 more interceptions -- his career QB rating was also almost 7 points higher... Peyton Manning's career statistics will almost certainly surpass Elway's, as well... In terms of Superbowl victories, Tom Brady and Joe Montana, Troy Aikman (and even Terry Bradshaw) are ahead of him... I just don't understand why Elway is such an obvious choice for you. He's not the best ever at anything. Not any statistic, not wins, not Superbowl victories, not Pro Bowl appearances, not completion percentage, not QB rating... He's GOOD at everything, but not the best at anything. And I feel like Dan Marino, Peyton Manning, and Tom Brady are all overall better. What QB has the most 4th quarter comebacks? That would be John Elway with 48. I guess that makes him more clutch than Montana, doesn't it. I guess that makes him the "BEST" at that. Maybe on THIS FORUM, no one thinks Elway was the best, but plenty of other forums I talk on several people do. Sean Salisbury used to mention it every chance he got when he worked for ESPN. Like I said, it's the never ending debate. And Elway was way better than "good", he was great. If you think he was just "good", that's worse than any argument I've made. I'll give credit where credit is due, Brady is a very good QB. I just won't sit here and say that a guy who is still playing is better than Elway after the terrific career Elway had. Bring up the Super Bowls he won all you want and give credit to everyone but him, but keep in mind he pretty much single handedly took them to 3 others. How about you talk about how Brady and Montana cant throw a curveball, so they suck as QB's. That right there made your argument wrong and made you look God awful
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Post by Tim Tebow™ on Jun 22, 2009 21:26:42 GMT -5
"Clutch" has more to do with performing in the playoffs, at key moments, which Joe Montana did. As a Cowboys fan, I'm well aware that regular season victories only get you so far. My team hasn't won in the playoffs in over 10 years. Montana was 4-0 in Superbowls... He was 83/122 (68%) for 1,142 yards, 11 touchdowns, and 0 interceptions. His Superbowl career QB rating was a staggering 127.8. He also ran for 101 yards and 2 touchdowns in those Superbowls. Elway, on the other hand, was 2-3 in Superbowls... He was 76/152 (50%) for 1,128 yards, 3 touchdowns, and 8 interceptions. His career Superbowl QB rating is a god-awful 59.3. Don't talk to me about John Elway being 'clutch' when he was god awful like that. Hell, in his first Superbowl victory, he only threw for 123 yards, 0 touchdowns, and 1 INT. That's pathetic. That's not clutch at all. If Terrell Davis wasn't toting the rock 30 times in that game, the Broncos lose in a landslide. I don't know who you're trying to convince right now... Yourself, or the rest of us? EXACTLY! Elway is one of the best, but when it comes down to it in clutch situations playoffs are more important. Now yes, regular season wins do get you to the playoffs, but its the playoffs that gets QB's championships. And when it came down to Super Bowls, Joe Montana was better than Elway, and Tom Brady was better than Elway.
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Post by captain master talbot on Jun 22, 2009 21:40:28 GMT -5
If we're talking about Superbowl performances....I'm throwing Phil Simms into the mix.
10 consecutive completions, 88% completion, 268 yards, and 3 touchdowns, and a 150.9 passer rating.
I know he was an above average QB in the regular season though.
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wakeman
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Joined on: Sept 18, 2005 1:47:05 GMT -5
Posts: 936
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Post by wakeman on Jun 22, 2009 22:03:28 GMT -5
Elway came up big when he had to more than any other quarterback in NFL history. Even people who hate the Broncos will tell you that. There IS NO ARGUING that.
As for the baseball reference, the guy told me to tell him ANYTHING Elway has done that Brady hasn't and that's what I did. I was trying to make a point that Elway's athleticism made him better than Brady. But of course, I'm sure this board thinks Brady is more athletic than Elway too.
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Post by Kliquid on Jun 22, 2009 22:10:20 GMT -5
I'm an idiot, I quoted the wrong post. Ahem.... As a Cowboys fan, I'm well aware that regular season victories only get you so far. My team hasn't won in the playoffs in over 10 years. 4557 days. You motherfu.... If we're talking about Superbowl performances....I'm throwing Phil Simms into the mix. 10 consecutive completions, 88% completion, 268 yards, and 3 touchdowns, and a 150.9 passer rating. I know he was an above average QB in the regular season though. I know this is a joke, but come on, the guy's best season was 22 touchdowns.
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Post by captain master talbot on Jun 22, 2009 22:14:58 GMT -5
I recognized that when I said "an above average QB in the regular season". I was tlaking about singular Super Bowl performances. That should be a top 5, maybe even top 2 performance.
And I think that day count is going to expand.
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Post by carly1988 on Jun 22, 2009 22:15:02 GMT -5
That's right, keep suckin on that Denver Bronco teat. The reason you think John Elway is the best QB ever is because you're from Colorado. Look, no one is trying to argue that John Elway isn't good. He's one of the best ever. But the first post you made when you came into this thread is the reason that people are berating you. He's only mentioned once because, quite frankly, no one else thinks he's the best ever. When it comes down to it, John Elway isn't the best ever at anything... In terms of clutch play-making, I'd rather have Joe Montana. When it comes to career statistics, Marino threw for 10,000 more yards, 120 more touchdowns, and just 26 more interceptions -- his career QB rating was also almost 7 points higher... Peyton Manning's career statistics will almost certainly surpass Elway's, as well... In terms of Superbowl victories, Tom Brady and Joe Montana, Troy Aikman (and even Terry Bradshaw) are ahead of him... I just don't understand why Elway is such an obvious choice for you. He's not the best ever at anything. Not any statistic, not wins, not Superbowl victories, not Pro Bowl appearances, not completion percentage, not QB rating... He's GOOD at everything, but not the best at anything. And I feel like Dan Marino, Peyton Manning, and Tom Brady are all overall better. What QB has the most 4th quarter comebacks? That would be John Elway with 48. I guess that makes him more clutch than Montana, doesn't it. I guess that makes him the "BEST" at that. Maybe on THIS FORUM, no one thinks Elway was the best, but plenty of other forums I talk on several people do. Sean Salisbury used to mention it every chance he got when he worked for ESPN. Like I said, it's the never ending debate. And Elway was way better than "good", he was great. If you think he was just "good", that's worse than any argument I've made. I'll give credit where credit is due, Brady is a very good QB. I just won't sit here and say that a guy who is still playing is better than Elway after the terrific career Elway had. Bring up the Super Bowls he won all you want and give credit to everyone but him, but keep in mind he pretty much single handedly took them to 3 others. That just means the Broncos usually suck ass during their games....Elway is a great QB, but he's not the greatest. I will go to the grave believing that Joe Montana is the greatest QB of all time, or at least in my generation
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Post by Kliquid on Jun 22, 2009 22:15:20 GMT -5
Elway came up big when he had to more than any other quarterback in NFL history. Even people who hate the Broncos will tell you that. There IS NO ARGUING that. Apparently you didn't read my post where I referenced his Superbowl stats. How, exactly, are those stats, "coming up big when he had to?" The thing is, only people who are Broncos fans would say that he "came up big when he had to" after he had a career Superbowl QB rating of 59.3.
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wakeman
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Joined on: Sept 18, 2005 1:47:05 GMT -5
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Post by wakeman on Jun 22, 2009 22:18:18 GMT -5
Dude, that's all you are is stats. The best QB ever doesn't have the best stats ever. Football is a team sport, it's about winning, isn't it? Steve Beuerlein threw 36 Tds in 1999 which is more than Elway ever had in a season and is 9th most ever. Neil Lomax had over 4,700 yards passing one year. More than any season for Elway and 12th best ever. Are any of those guys even in the conversation for best ever? Good ing lord. When Elway retired, he had 148 wins, more than ANY OTHER QB who ever played the game. What else would you like him to do?
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Post by Kliquid on Jun 22, 2009 22:20:29 GMT -5
I recognized that when I said "an above average QB in the regular season". I was tlaking about singular Super Bowl performances. That should be a top 5, maybe even top 2 performance. Oh, I get ya'. Yes, that was a great Superbowl performance. But, when it comes down to it, no one can touch Steve Young's performance in XXIX. And I think that day count is going to expand. You're probably right. *sigh*
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Post by captain master talbot on Jun 22, 2009 22:25:06 GMT -5
Dude, that's all you are is stats. The best QB ever doesn't have the best stats ever. Football is a team sport, it's about winning, isn't it? Steve Beuerlein threw 36 Tds in 1999 which is more than Elway ever had in a season and is 9th most ever. Neil Lomax had over 4,700 yards passing one year. More than any season for Elway and 12th best ever. Are any of those guys even in the conversation for best ever? Good ing lord. When Elway retired, he had 148 wins, more than ANY OTHER QB who ever played the game. What else would you like him to do? That's a totally different argument. Yes it's a team game in the big picture, but this is talking about the Best Quarterbacks of All Time, not the best Team Players of All Time. Elway has a similar career passer rating to Eli Manning. And I, as big of a homer as I am, would never put Eli near the top of any Greatest of All Time List. We're talking about stats in this argument, not the little things.
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Post by Kliquid on Jun 22, 2009 22:25:37 GMT -5
Dude, that's all you are is stats. The best QB ever doesn't have the best stats ever. Football is a team sport, it's about winning, isn't it? You brought up that he "performed in the clutch" and I simply pointed out how terrible he was in the Superbowl... You know, the biggest sporting event in America. Steve Beuerlein threw 36 Tds in 1999 which is more than Elway ever had in a season and is 9th most ever. Neil Lomax had over 4,700 yards passing one year. More than any season for Elway and 12th best ever. Are any of those guys even in the conversation for best ever? Good ing lord. We're not talking about one season, we're talking about careers. When Elway retired, he had 148 wins, more than ANY OTHER QB who ever played the game. What else would you like him to do? And now he's 21 games behind Favre. So, again, he's not the best. He'll also likely be passed by Peyton Manning in the next 3-4 years.
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wakeman
Superstar
Joined on: Sept 18, 2005 1:47:05 GMT -5
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Post by wakeman on Jun 22, 2009 22:29:20 GMT -5
Yeah, sorry Elway didn't stick around 30 years and play for team after team like that bum Favre, but that's another story. But you're the one who keeps bringing up the stats.
Obviously, we won't be able to agree on anything. Bottom line is, my opinion is John Elway is the best QB ever, which is what this topic is about. You obviously have a different opinion, which is fine.
In the end, it's just an opinion. There's no proof anyone can give that any one player is the best. All I know is if I want to win one football game, I'm taking Elway. End of story for me.
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Post by captain master talbot on Jun 22, 2009 22:31:59 GMT -5
I'm taking Brady, honestly.
His TD/INT Ratio is ridiculous.
It's like +110
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Post by carly1988 on Jun 22, 2009 22:39:40 GMT -5
Dude, that's all you are is stats. The best QB ever doesn't have the best stats ever. Football is a team sport, it's about winning, isn't it? Steve Beuerlein threw 36 Tds in 1999 which is more than Elway ever had in a season and is 9th most ever. Neil Lomax had over 4,700 yards passing one year. More than any season for Elway and 12th best ever. Are any of those guys even in the conversation for best ever? Good ing lord. When Elway retired, he had 148 wins, more than ANY OTHER QB who ever played the game. What else would you like him to do? 148 wins but only 2 were super bowls. If going by wins alone, Ill take half the amount of wins and double the super bowls any day
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Post by Kliquid on Jun 22, 2009 22:41:07 GMT -5
Yeah, sorry Elway didn't stick around 30 years and play for team after team like that bum Favre, but that's another story. But you're the one who keeps bringing up the stats. If we're talking about winning percentage, then Tom Brady is the best ever; once again... .784. Roger Staubach, at .746... Joe Montana at .713. Elway is at .643, right behind Donovan McNabb.
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Post by Tim Tebow™ on Jun 22, 2009 22:45:19 GMT -5
Yeah, sorry Elway didn't stick around 30 years and play for team after team like that bum Favre, but that's another story. But you're the one who keeps bringing up the stats. If we're talking about winning percentage, then Tom Brady is the best ever; once again... .784. Roger Staubach, at .746... Joe Montana at .713. Elway is at .643, right behind Donovan McNabb. pwnt once again.
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Post by sonstuds on Jun 23, 2009 10:35:15 GMT -5
If we're talking about Superbowl performances....I'm throwing Phil Simms into the mix. 10 consecutive completions, 88% completion, 268 yards, and 3 touchdowns, and a 150.9 passer rating. I know he was an above average QB in the regular season though. Doug Williams totally had the coolest SB performance. As for the baseball reference, the guy told me to tell him ANYTHING Elway has done that Brady hasn't and that's what I did. I was trying to make a point that Elway's athleticism made him better than Brady. But of course, I'm sure this board thinks Brady is more athletic than Elway too. Of course he isn't but Brady was drafted in MLB too. Probably could have been easier to make your point by just using Elway's rushing stats but meh.
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