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Post by T R W on Jun 23, 2009 12:23:52 GMT -5
The coolest Superbowl performance was Elway in Super Bowl XXIV.
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Post by Kliquid on Jun 23, 2009 12:29:39 GMT -5
The coolest Superbowl performance was Elway in Super Bowl XXIV. A very awesome performance, indeed. My favorite part was when he made those clutch throws to the 49ers defense.
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Post by heartbreakkid2k3 on Jun 23, 2009 12:51:03 GMT -5
This thread proves that "QB Ratings" are bullsh*t. They may work on a week to week, or game to game basis, but in terms of career stats? No. They mean jack.
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Post by Kliquid on Jun 23, 2009 13:19:37 GMT -5
This thread proves that "QB Ratings" are bullsh*t. They may work on a week to week, or game to game basis, but in terms of career stats? No. They mean jack. I completely disagree, and would say the opposite of what you just said. Most of the top guys in QB rating are among the best QB's of all-time... Steve Young, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Otto Graham, Brett Favre, Jim Kelly, etc. are all in the top-25 all-time.
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wakeman
Superstar
Joined on: Sept 18, 2005 1:47:05 GMT -5
Posts: 936
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Post by wakeman on Jun 23, 2009 15:26:05 GMT -5
An article written by Aaron Mendelson following New England's loss to the Giants in the Super Bowl. I don't know the guy, but he's spot on. You'll also notice a certain QB's name mentioned fairly often.
"One of the big questions in the run-up to Super Bowl XLII was whether Tom Brady of the New England Patriots is the greatest quarterback ever. After his performance in Sunday night's 17-14 stunning defeat by the New York Giants, it is clear to any unbiased pro football fan that he is not.
To even mention Brady's name in the same breath as NFL legends John Elway, Terry Bradshaw or Joe Montana at this stage of his career is a stretch. To his credit, Brady is an excellent manager of the game with an uncanny ability to avoid mistakes. Only 30 years of age, his list of accomplishments is long and impressive, the most notable, of course, being his three Super Bowl victories (XXXVI, XXXVIII, and XXXIX), two Super Bowl MVP awards (XXXVI and XXXVIII), four Pro Bowl invitations and the NFL record for most touchdown passes in a single regular season.
If you want to judge the greatness of a quarterback on Super Bowl victories alone, the book is still open on Brady. But if you look at the record of Super Bowl QBs, Brady can now no longer stand beside Joe Montana or Terry Bradshaw as their equal. With his team’s defeat on Sunday, Brady is now 3-1 in Super Bowls. Both Montana and Bradshaw were 4-0.
The loss also cost Brady the chance of leading a team to an undefeated season. That incredible feat could have ended this debate, but now the Patriots join the 1984 San Francisco 49ers, 1985 Bears, 1998 Minnesota Vikings and the 2004 Pittsburgh Steelers, who were all 15-1.
One can argue that Brady’s success can be found in the fact he has been blessed to be coached by one of the greatest coaches to ever walk an NFL sideline, Bill Belichick. Coach Belichick has the unique ability to take skilled players with troubled pasts and help them fulfill their potential and to turn many average players into great players. This can also be applied to Brady himself. It is almost hard to imagine Brady being where he is without Belichick.
This has led to Brady being a part of extremely good football teams. In this regard, he is no different to Joe Montana was with the 49ers, Troy Aikmen with the Cowboys or Bradshaw with the Steelers. But if you strip away the talent around Brady, is there still greatness? Would he be able to equal the success of Dan Marino, who shattered the record book with inferior teams? Or be even close to doing as well as Elway did early in his career when he literally carried his team on his back? I would argue the answer is no, due to his overall lack of physical tools.
In terms of greatness, one must look at the physical attributes a quarterback possesses. This area is often overlooked by Brady supporters and is his weakest link. Brady is a classic pocket passer who relies heavily on his offensive line for success. This was evident in Super Bowl XLII, when his offensive line broke down. He simply did not have the ability to avoid the pass rush and make things happen.
He is extremely slow, which does not give him the option of making plays with his legs, and only has average arm strength. In comparison with other NFL greats, it is clear Brady does not measure up. He lacks the quick release of Marino, the scrambling ability of Elway and the arm strength of Brett Favre.
It is clear that Brady is the best quarterback of his era, with Payton Manning a close second. He was lucky to be drafted by the Patriots and has made the most of it with hard work and the tutelage of Belichick. But his inferior physical skills compared to other NFL greats, and the complete lack of a proven record of being able to carry an average or bad team on his back to success, eliminates him from ranking alongside Montana or Marino or Elway or Johnny Unitas or Otto Graham as the greatest quarterback of all time".
I'm sure the next argument will be about this writer's credentials or something, but I just wanted to show there are other people who feel this way and are willing to put pen to paper about it.
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Post by captain master talbot on Jun 23, 2009 15:32:06 GMT -5
a. Where's the source?
b. The guy spelled Peyton Manning wrong.
c. Brady has EXCELLENT arm strength.
I think you wrote this article.
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Post by Jean-Ralphio on Jun 23, 2009 15:53:34 GMT -5
So thats one article that is poorly written and wrong, are you going to post the other 384945575895 that say Brady is one of the best and is amazing regardless of that loss in the Super Bowl? Or are you just gonna continue with your one sided lame wrong argument? Guys not a real reporter! www.sportingo.com/sports/a6889_why-tom-brady-cant-matchYou can sign in and POST your own articles! HAHAHA
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Post by heartbreakkid2k3 on Jun 23, 2009 15:58:40 GMT -5
No matter how much you dislike Tom Brady, he's going to be remembered as one of the best ever. Period. I could give a damn about him, but it's true.
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Post by captain master talbot on Jun 23, 2009 16:02:55 GMT -5
So thats one article that is poorly written and wrong, are you going to post the other 384945575895 that say Brady is one of the best and is amazing regardless of that loss in the Super Bowl? Or are you just gonna continue with your one sided lame wrong argument? Guys not a real reporter! www.sportingo.com/sports/a6889_why-tom-brady-cant-matchYou can sign in and POST your own articles! HAHAHA Lmfao. I still say it's wakeman who wrote this.
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wakeman
Superstar
Joined on: Sept 18, 2005 1:47:05 GMT -5
Posts: 936
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Post by wakeman on Jun 23, 2009 16:11:21 GMT -5
No, I didn't write the article, but won't question who the author is. He may very well be "not a real writer", I don't know.
Look, I know Brady will be remembered as one of the best, if not thee best when he's done. I'm not questioning that. I just hate that no one here wants to give Elway credit. I just hate that all anyone wants to talk about are stats. How old are some of you guys? Was anyone here above the age of 12 when Elway retired?
Emmitt Smith has more rushing yards than anyone in NFL history. Is he the best running back ever? Not a chance.
All I'm saying is this is an opinion. Everyone has one and no one in this topic is right because there is no right answer. I can respect everyone else's OPINION, I just want mine respected too. You guys act like Elway isn't even on the radar for best QBs ever, which is laughable and absurd.
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Post by Cult Member BriGuy on Jun 23, 2009 16:14:39 GMT -5
how does elway's dick taste?
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Post by Kliquid on Jun 23, 2009 16:16:19 GMT -5
I don't know who "Aaron Mendelson" is, but the guy is a f*cking moron who has no business writing about football. "One of the big questions in the run-up to Super Bowl XLII was whether Tom Brady of the New England Patriots is the greatest quarterback ever. After his performance in Sunday night's 17-14 stunning defeat by the New York Giants, it is clear to any unbiased pro football fan that he is not. He's not going to throw for 5 touchdowns every game, for Christ sake... 266 yards, a touchdown, and 0 interceptions isn't exactly bad; though. If you want to judge the greatness of a quarterback on Super Bowl victories alone, the book is still open on Brady. But if you look at the record of Super Bowl QBs, Brady can now no longer stand beside Joe Montana or Terry Bradshaw as their equal. With his team’s defeat on Sunday, Brady is now 3-1 in Super Bowls. Both Montana and Bradshaw were 4-0. a. Brady's career isn't over. b. Terry Bradshaw, in his career, threw 2 more touchdowns than he did interceptions. His QB rating was a paltry 70.9, and he played with arguably the greatest defense of all-time. To even have Terry Bradshaw in the conversation of top-10 QB's of all time is completely preposterous, let alone the SINGLE BEST EVER. c. Since when is being 3-1 in the Superbowl a bad thing? &The loss also cost Brady the chance of leading a team to an undefeated season. That incredible feat could have ended this debate, but now the Patriots join the 1984 San Francisco 49ers, 1985 Bears, 1998 Minnesota Vikings and the 2004 Pittsburgh Steelers, who were all 15-1. Wrong wrong wrong. a. The 2007 Patriots finished 16-0 in the regular season, something which none of those teams did. b. The Patriots' final record, playoffs included, was 18-1. Not 15-1. b. The 2004 Steelers lost to the Patriots (oh look, another Tom Brady reference) and finished 16-2. c. The 1998 Vikings lost to the Falcons and finished 16-2. One can argue that Brady’s success can be found in the fact he has been blessed to be coached by one of the greatest coaches to ever walk an NFL sideline, Bill Belichick. Coach Belichick has the unique ability to take skilled players with troubled pasts and help them fulfill their potential and to turn many average players into great players. This can also be applied to Brady himself. It is almost hard to imagine Brady being where he is without Belichick. It's interesting that people bring that up, but no one seems to remember that Joe Montana was coached by Bill Walsh and George Seifert, who were also two of the best coaches of all-time. Or that Elway was coached by Dan Reeves and Mike Shanahan, also two great coaches. Last time I checked, Belichick got fired by the Browns, was not a head coach for 5 years; then finally got hired by the Patriots... Not to mention, the Patriots went 5-11 in Belichick's first season (with Drew Bledsoe at QB) and were off to an 0-2 start in his 2nd season, before Tom Brady stepped in and led them to a Superbowl victory. But yeah, it must be a coincidence that the Patriots missed the playoffs before Brady took over and in 2008 when he was hurt... Right? This has led to Brady being a part of extremely good football teams. In this regard, he is no different to Joe Montana was with the 49ers, Troy Aikmen with the Cowboys or Bradshaw with the Steelers. But if you strip away the talent around Brady, is there still greatness? Would he be able to equal the success of Dan Marino, who shattered the record book with inferior teams? Or be even close to doing as well as Elway did early in his career when he literally carried his team on his back? I would argue the answer is no, due to his overall lack of physical tools.This jackass spelled "Troy Aikman" wrong, and you expect anyone to take his opinion seriously? In terms of greatness, one must look at the physical attributes a quarterback possesses. This area is often overlooked by Brady supporters and is his weakest link. Brady is a classic pocket passer who relies heavily on his offensive line for success. This was evident in Super Bowl XLII, when his offensive line broke down. He simply did not have the ability to avoid the pass rush and make things happen. You find me a quarterback who could have avoided that pass-rush and been successful passing the ball, and I'll make you an NFL head coach right now. Stop discrediting the quarterback and give credit to the defense, for god's sake. He is extremely slow, which does not give him the option of making plays with his legs, and only has average arm strength. In comparison with other NFL greats, it is clear Brady does not measure up. He lacks the quick release of Marino, the scrambling ability of Elway and the arm strength of Brett Favre. Tom Brady is well known for having an extremely quick release. The difference is that, in today's NFL, every team is pass-rushing WAY more than they were even 10 years ago... So yes, NFL quarterbacks today get sacked more than others did in the past; but that isn't a discredit to them -- it's a credit to the defensive coordinators and amazing athletes who now play defense in the NFL. If a linebacker or defensive lineman ran a 4.5 40-yard dash in 1980, people would say he should be playing safety. At this point, in the NFL, speed like that is not even that uncommon. Brady's arm looks pretty strong when he's tossing it 65 yards down the field to Randy Moss, doesn't it? It is clear that Brady is the best quarterback of his era, with Payton Manning a close second. He was lucky to be drafted by the Patriots and has made the most of it with hard work and the tutelage of Belichick. But his inferior physical skills compared to other NFL greats, and the complete lack of a proven record of being able to carry an average or bad team on his back to success, eliminates him from ranking alongside Montana or Marino or Elway or Johnny Unitas or Otto Graham as the greatest quarterback of all time". Again, in the games previous to Tom Brady taking over as the Patriots QB under Belichick, the Patriots were 5-13. How is that not making sense to this guy? I'm sure the next argument will be about this writer's credentials or something, but I just wanted to show there are other people who feel this way and are willing to put pen to paper about it. I'm sure there are people who are willing to put pen to paper about it. I'd just hope that they would be a little more intelligent.
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Post by heartbreakkid2k3 on Jun 23, 2009 16:16:27 GMT -5
how does elway's dick taste? Like Coors Light, I suppose.
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Post by Kliquid on Jun 23, 2009 16:18:08 GMT -5
Emmitt Smith has more rushing yards than anyone in NFL history. Is he the best running back ever? Not a chance. What, exactly, do you have against Emmitt Smith?
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Post by heartbreakkid2k3 on Jun 23, 2009 16:18:40 GMT -5
Emmitt Smith has more rushing yards than anyone in NFL history. Is he the best running back ever? Not a chance. What, exactly, do you have against Emmitt Smith? He's NOT John Elway. Duh.
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Post by Kliquid on Jun 23, 2009 16:25:17 GMT -5
What, exactly, do you have against Emmitt Smith? He's NOT John Elway. Duh. John Elway was too much of an alcoholic, or he probably would've been the best RB ever. You're right.
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wakeman
Superstar
Joined on: Sept 18, 2005 1:47:05 GMT -5
Posts: 936
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Post by wakeman on Jun 23, 2009 16:26:17 GMT -5
Emmitt Smith has more rushing yards than anyone in NFL history. Is he the best running back ever? Not a chance. What, exactly, do you have against Emmitt Smith? I have nothing against Emmitt Smith. He was a great player. But your argument seems to be that the guy with the best stats must be the best, no matter how long they played. So, my question is, is Emmitt Smith the best RB ever since he has the most rushing yards? I would say no.
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Post by heartbreakkid2k3 on Jun 23, 2009 16:27:05 GMT -5
He's NOT John Elway. Duh. John Elway was too much of an alcoholic, or he probably would've been the best RB ever. You're right. Just because he enjoyed his Silver Bullet's doesn't mean he was an alcoholic. It's the whiskey. THAT makes him an alcoholic.
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Post by Kliquid on Jun 23, 2009 16:34:42 GMT -5
I have nothing against Emmitt Smith. He was a great player. But your argument seems to be that the guy with the best stats must be the best, no matter how long they played. So, my question is, is Emmitt Smith the best RB ever since he has the most rushing yards? I would say no. Emmitt Smith had everything you could want in a running back... I definitely think he's in the conversation for best running back ever, though there are a few guys who I could understand people arguing are better... Nevertheless, Smith is top-5, without any question. Anyone who would say otherwise, quite frankly, has absolutely no f'n idea what they're talking about. If you'd like to argue about Emmitt Smith, though, please make a new topic; so I can own you there, as well.
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Post by Cult Member BriGuy on Jun 23, 2009 16:37:36 GMT -5
If you'd like to argue about Emmitt Smith, though, please make a new topic; so I can own you there, as well. I'm going to get my popcorn ready.
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