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Post by punksnotdead on Jan 10, 2012 11:46:30 GMT -5
You guys seem to forget, as always, that us collectors are very much the minority of the target market of action figures. They make thousands of each figure, but there just aren't thousands of us collectors. There are however hundreds of thousands of kids into wrestling. These kids aren't interested in figures of wrestlers from 20+ years ago. I understand that. Put yourself in a ten year olds shoes. When I was 10, my parents could only buy so many figures, what was I going to get if I had a choice? The Hasbro Legion of Doom 2 pack? Or the (theoretical) Pedro Morales? Kids vs Collectors has been the most debated topic over the last 20 years. I think the kids are losing. I just don't see them buying or wanting action figures anymore. TRU is a ghost town 10 months of the year. The toy companies have to either accept the collectors, design a hot figure that attracts the kids, or close their figure divisions. And of course the collectors have to stop whining about $15 - $20 figures. T he way I see it, I buy about 400 wwe figures a year. The average non collector buys, what, maybe 10 a year? Therefore I equal 40 non collectors.That is actually a really unique way to look at it, and I know you are not alone. I've probably purchased, in totality, at least 200 WWE Mattel figures. So mark me down for about 100 a year, and I consider myself pretty casual in terms of collecting, as I only get the guys I like or stuff I need for customs/fixups, although I trade and sell off quite a bit. I think Mattel respects our opinion, to at least some degree, but I think a lot of companies, down play the significance of today's collector market, as I think we do account for more than we are given credit for in terms of a target consumer. Bottom line, I can afford to spend 10 times what a kid can on toys, and I do. I still think we are the minority, just due to the sheer volume of WWE fans under 12, but in buying quantity I think people would be shocked at the percentage of sales we account for right now.
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maske2g
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Post by maske2g on Jan 10, 2012 11:52:14 GMT -5
But how many of the figures you bought are in the "For collectors" catagory.
I can bet that if you bought 400 Mattel figures this year (a lie, unless your selling on) that 75 % of your Mattel figures are of current superstars.
The sales figures don't lie. These things are on a much larger scale than you realise.
I agree, that we buy a lot more than the individuals. But when we narrow it down to our collector aimed figures, that number diminishes sharply.
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Post by punksnotdead on Jan 10, 2012 11:57:34 GMT -5
But how many of the figures you bought are in the "For collectors" catagory. I can bet that if you bought 400 Mattel figures this year (a lie, unless your selling on) that 75 % of your Mattel figures are of current superstars. The sales figures don't lie. These things are on a much larger scale than you realise. I agree, that we buy a lot more than the individuals. But when we narrow it down to our collector aimed figures, that number diminishes sharply. Well I think therein lies the catch 22 of it all. Mattel can say that the current era figures aren't collector driven but we can account for a really big portion of those sales. But then, I think that is why we see Flashbacks in the Elite line. That technique pretty much covers both segments. The Legends were damn near a 100% collector driven market. However, there were a number of issues. Poor attire or character selection, poor distribution, stores over ordering, and then a high price point. So there were more issues with that endeavor than collectors just not buying enough imo.
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maske2g
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Post by maske2g on Jan 10, 2012 12:10:58 GMT -5
But how many of the figures you bought are in the "For collectors" catagory. I can bet that if you bought 400 Mattel figures this year (a lie, unless your selling on) that 75 % of your Mattel figures are of current superstars. The sales figures don't lie. These things are on a much larger scale than you realise. I agree, that we buy a lot more than the individuals. But when we narrow it down to our collector aimed figures, that number diminishes sharply. Well I think therein lies the catch 22 of it all. Mattel can say that the current era figures aren't collector driven but we can account for a really big portion of those sales. But then, I think that is why we see Flashbacks in the Elite line. That technique pretty much covers both segments. The Legends were damn near a 100% collector driven market. However, there were a number of issues. Poor attire or character selection, poor distribution, stores over ordering, and then a high price point. So there were more issues with that endeavor than collectors just not buying enough imo. I don't think attire's have much to do with it. With the exception of Sgt Slaughter, the rest were pretty fine. There are two real problems that are never addressed. 1) A lot of these characters have already been oversaturated in very recent years. We had about 5 Legion of Doom CS. In my collection I have Demolition Hasbro, Ax single CS, Smash Single CS, Demolition 2 pack, Demolition 3 pack, and now Mattel Demolition. I have the money for it....how many people really want 5 different Ax figures? I don't think the world was ready for more legends yet, not enough money, not enough space. 2) There is a very real, global economic problem, that we didn't have in the first years of classic superstarts. This both compounds the above problem, and prevents many new collectors getting in on the act.
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Post by mrhoss on Jan 10, 2012 12:54:59 GMT -5
Well I think therein lies the catch 22 of it all. Mattel can say that the current era figures aren't collector driven but we can account for a really big portion of those sales. But then, I think that is why we see Flashbacks in the Elite line. That technique pretty much covers both segments. The Legends were damn near a 100% collector driven market. However, there were a number of issues. Poor attire or character selection, poor distribution, stores over ordering, and then a high price point. So there were more issues with that endeavor than collectors just not buying enough imo. I don't think attire's have much to do with it. With the exception of Sgt Slaughter, the rest were pretty fine. There are two real problems that are never addressed. 1) A lot of these characters have already been oversaturated in very recent years. We had about 5 Legion of Doom CS. In my collection I have Demolition Hasbro, Ax single CS, Smash Single CS, Demolition 2 pack, Demolition 3 pack, and now Mattel Demolition. I have the money for it....how many people really want 5 different Ax figures? I don't think the world was ready for more legends yet, not enough money, not enough space.2) There is a very real, global economic problem, that we didn't have in the first years of classic superstarts. This both compounds the above problem, and prevents many new collectors getting in on the act. Being an action figure fan I was surprised to learn this. I think it caught Mattel off guard too. Although I like the older versions of Demolition, Mattel's (Legends) are easily the best of the group. Automatic sales, right? Eh, nope. So the wrestling fan doesn't collect like a Star Wars or Superhero fan who has about 30 different Luke and Batman figures.
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Post by chillax on Jan 10, 2012 13:48:07 GMT -5
The Legends were damn near a 100% collector driven market. However, there were a number of issues. Poor attire or character selection, poor distribution, stores over ordering, and then a high price point. So there were more issues with that endeavor than collectors just not buying enough imo. I agree with these issues except the poor attire. You really think Sgt. Slaughter in blue or Jimmy Snuka in boots is what caused this line to fail?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2012 13:59:26 GMT -5
Sgt slaughter and snuka arn't what caused the line to fail but they definetly contributed. If you were already reluctant to buy the figure in the first place you could be swung by costume selection, and sarge just wasn't known for the blue tights and white tank as well as the camo.
I'm hoping that in a couple years when economy is going strong , mattel gives legends in retail another shot but makes sure to anchor the set with big name superstars , flashbacks and throwbacks, hbk , undertaker, kane, mysterio etc etc
I agree about the percentage of matty collectors, they keep saying were 5 percent but I don't see it. I buy hundreds of figures a year, I buy the current figures to make customs and fix ups, and I buy legends for the same reason and also to collect. We may just be 5 percent to mattel, but if they completely ignored the collector market I would bet that their sales would go down more than 5 percent.
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Post by LaParka on Jan 10, 2012 14:56:57 GMT -5
Its both the WWE's and Mattel's fault. Supposedly WWE is blocking some big names that aren't in rival organizations. The other half of the blame goes to Mattel personally I would have rather had the Legends line done in the basic format with a few elite style ones here and there. Think if the Legends were 9.99 and the 2 packs started out at 17.99-19.99 they would have sold a lot better than they did. They say the collectors are about 5% of their buying market, but I think its a little higher than that in certain areas.
If there DC line went on for 20 waves with half of their C list characters theres no reason to say the WWE line couldn't have been successful if it was executed right, but they had some poor decision making in the process, certain case breakouts stink. look at Basic 17 Zack Ryder is over and popular yet they pack him 1 per case, but Rey ( i don't sell as well because i'm in every single assortment) Mysterio will be 4 or 5 per case.
Mattel needs to take chances and a few more gambles in the Battle Packs 3 the Bellas divas are 1 per case why not follow that same format and due classic teams/feuds Rougeau Brothers, Hart Foundation, British Bulldogs, Powers of Pain, Headbangers, Midnight Express, Rock and Roll Express, IRS and Ted Dibiase.
They claim John Cena, Rey Mysterio sell how about packing them in 2 packs with obscure legends that supposedly won't sell which seems to be every single guy that there asked about
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Post by mrhoss on Jan 10, 2012 15:15:24 GMT -5
I know everyone wishes the Legends were $9.99 but I just received a Jakks Tajiri from the Raw/Smackdown Draft wave, the TRU price tag was... $8.99 . Impossible for Mattel to charge only $1 more than a Jakks figure from about 10 years ago (?).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2012 15:25:44 GMT -5
Mattel could try again with the sets being exclusive to TRU, RSC, & Matty! Maybe even allow spam & spam to have an exclusive here and there as well.
But they need to realistic about prices. 9.99 seems TOTALLY Fair like U^^^ said, & 17.99 per tag team. You can buy the set of 5 for $50 plus tax when they come out.
But, they need more help from wwe other than the LAME Classics.com site and a 1 page ad in wwe/toy mags. FREE TV!
" They claim John Cena, Rey Mysterio sell how about packing them in 2 packs with obscure legends that supposedly won't sell which seems to be every single guy that there asked about"
Man, this seems to be so true. SOOO Many guys either wont sell or cant get signed. And they give you a bit of an attiude when asking about them.
Its seems to be all about the $$$ though. but they wanted the quick buck. as I said before, Jakks series 1 was on clearance as well. By series 6, everyone knew, and BOOM!
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Post by qdogg on Jan 10, 2012 15:40:28 GMT -5
Action figure lines dont last forever and other than like Star Wars I cant think of any other toy line that has had nonstop new releases for the last 20 or so years.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2012 19:40:00 GMT -5
9.99 is what they sold figures @ 10 years ago, inflation, gas + oil (plastic prices) go up.... i agree they need to cut back on what they can, maybe legends without accessories ? but 9.99 ? wont happen again
i hope they try again in retail one day, even as a store exclusive
where WWE is at a definite fault is when they told mattel not to put anyone in a current contract in the legends line..... which meant hbk, undertaker, kane , triple h , rey mysterio etc etc etc couldnt be in the line. and those guys would have generated revenue and interest.
WWE is also at fault for refusing to let mattel make certain wrestlers due to heat with vince or adult situations, Come on, if legends is a collector driven line aimed at adults then why try to protect us from a razor ramone figure because he killed a man.
Mattel Could have chose a better line up of legends to market imo or better costumes, they also sunk 2 packs with the most boring 2 pack line up in the history of wrestling figures . And they should have never listened to the "no current stars in legends"
Defining Moments was a hinder to the legends line also, defining moments kept some of the big stars out of the actual legends line, and @ 10 bucks more for a few more accessories, mattel was far too ambitious , far too quick. They should have put the work into legends, put the big stars in the line and waited for it to gather steam, gain success and popularity, then add 2 packs , or niche lines like entrance greats or d.m .
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2012 22:25:48 GMT -5
Jakks lost the line at end of 2010. the last few series of Jakks legends were still 9.99 just over 3 yrs ago. gas prices are the same as then, BUT The economy is worse, people have less money. better to sell some figs at 9.99, then just a few at $15.99, turn people off, then have them on clearance for $3.99, then have stores not order anymore, then the line cancelled.
Everyone pretty much agrees high prices in the worst economy since the depression, was the main culprit.
and your right about DM and such. Warrior & Steamboat are two AWESOME figs, yet STILL sit on the shelf even after last minute christmas rush. $26.99 is WAAAAAAY to much.
Yep, they needed the current legends to some butt kickin in this line. Literally shoulda copies Jakks with the 1st series of both singles & Tag Teams.
Jakks burnt people out on Iron Sheik already. The only one I would have ever bought again was the longer pants version in series 2. which I did. Man, what horrible choices for the 1st series. and its Frikin MATTEL. Like they are so broke, they cant realize a mistake and try again. Like if 1 more series of tag teams pooped, Mattel would go bankrupt. Half the people who would buy an awesome 2 pack like the Rockers will never even know they exist. Not everyone is on wfigs.com or buys wwe/toy mags to know about Matty.
It takes people workin with people. gotta have the right person talkin to jakks, Vince, dead wrestler estates, etc about allowing these figs to be made for the fans & the the legends to get paid. and quit the selfish BS.
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maske2g
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Post by maske2g on Jan 11, 2012 7:36:39 GMT -5
I'm hoping that in a couple years when economy is going strong Good luck with that I'm an equity deriv's analyst by day.....try 15- 20 years.
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maske2g
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Post by maske2g on Jan 11, 2012 7:43:28 GMT -5
Mattel needs to take chances and a few more gambles in the Battle Packs 3 the Bellas divas are 1 per case why not follow that same format and due classic teams/feuds Rougeau Brothers, Hart Foundation, British Bulldogs, Powers of Pain, Headbangers, Midnight Express, Rock and Roll Express, IRS and Ted Dibiase. They claim John Cena, Rey Mysterio sell how about packing them in 2 packs with obscure legends that supposedly won't sell which seems to be every single guy that there asked about I'll go back to saturation and the poor economy. I bet every collector has at least 1 Hart foundation 2 pack. We don't need a 4th Hart foundation set. I have the money for one, many don't. Didn't the Jakks midnight express sit on the shelf for 3 years? Why make another? Who really want's the Headbangers? AWFUL!! The wouldn't CLAIM they sell Cena's and Rey, if it was false. Those figures make them money hand over fist. WWE's action figure profits are very good. Mattel know what figures are making that cash. How do they improve it? By not making losses on stuff that DOESN't SELL!
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Post by LaParka on Jan 11, 2012 8:43:07 GMT -5
The Jakks midnight express sold very well in my area, the Strike Force pack was the dead set from the wave and sat on the shelves.
I'd rather the see the headbangers/midnight express packed 1 per case, then see a John Cena Rtruth battle pack gathering dust on shelves since they packed it 3 per case
When you take on a line like WWE you have to try and cater the everyone so if you have a handful of slow sellers year its not that bad. There clue less when it comes to knowing what people want.
Mattels biggest problem is they over saturate the market with waves look at all their other properties/lines they screwed up on Green Lantern movie masters the first 4 figures were way overshipped and sat on shelves for a long time to complete the build a figure th other waves had to be ordered online, from specialty stores, or have the hope of finding a store that somehow got lucky to get a later asst.
There doing the same thing with WWE John Morrison don't sell that great yet they'll pack him either 2 or 3 per case
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maske2g
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Post by maske2g on Jan 11, 2012 8:53:27 GMT -5
The Jakks midnight express sold very well in my area, the Strike Force pack was the dead set from the wave and sat on the shelves. I'd rather the see the headbangers/midnight express packed 1 per case, then see a John Cena Rtruth battle pack gathering dust on shelves since they packed it 3 per case When you take on a line like WWE you have to try and cater the everyone so if you have a handful of slow sellers year its not that bad. There clue less when it comes to knowing what people want. Mattels biggest problem is they over saturate the market with waves look at all their other properties/lines they screwed up on Green Lantern movie masters the first 4 figures were way overshipped and sat on shelves for a long time to complete the build a figure th other waves had to be ordered online, from specialty stores, or have the hope of finding a store that somehow got lucky to get a later asst. There doing the same thing with WWE John Morrison don't sell that great yet they'll pack him either 2 or 3 per case I'm not sure about area's, as I live in London, where we're screwed at every corner. All I know is, I saw a stack of them in a Toys R us in Florida 2010, years after release!!! We cannot justify our opinions based a on experiences with local stores, it's too small a scale. But when Jakks say we make loads of Cena's cos we sell loads of them....they simply wouldn't lie about that. If legends were profitable, they would make them. It's out of their hands that they are not. They tried to jump on an already collapsing bandwagon.
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Post by The Boondock Syxx on Jan 11, 2012 9:18:47 GMT -5
i stopped collecting for the most part maybe just 1 or 2 figs a year but i would have bought every defining moment had they not been 30 dollars, ridiculous price even for a figure that good
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2012 10:36:58 GMT -5
here in canada the 3 3/4 inch line marvel universe sells for 9.99 i think elites for 16-17 is pretty fair, theres lots of toy lines selling @ that price now i agree if they could cut costs they would sell better but i dont see it happening. 14.99 @ 3.75 inches by hasbro while others are listed @ 11.99 price may suck but were stuck with it
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Post by Halloween King on Jan 11, 2012 15:04:02 GMT -5
I think it was the price. Mattel expects you to pay 20 to 30 dollars for DM figures. 12 to 20 for 1 Legends figure and 30 to 40 for a legends 2 pack. That was just a really high amount of money to pay IMHO. And then I think it didnt help them that they were making guys Jakks had already made. Legends 1 for mattel had LOD, Dusty, Sgt, and I forgot who else, point being those were all guys made by Jakks.
Me personally when legends came out I wasnt interested. Jakks made classics out of regular molds not deluxe. So right away I wasnt interested because Mattel was Deluxe not regular as Jakks was. And then the line up sparked 0 interest from me because I already had all those guys in Jakks form. And then I saw Mattel, wow, was I disappointed in the figures. I thought they had horrible facial sculpts and the bodys looked like r3 from jakks. So it looked like a step backwards to me. IMO we got inferior sculpts from mattel for a higher price than jakks.
Of course those jakks total abandonment of wrestling figs in ra form made me flock to mattel and they have grown on me now.
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