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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jan 28, 2013 20:54:32 GMT -5
Libertarian. What's so appealing about Marxism? Over the summer I decided to read the Communist Manifesto, and I found it to be very fitting and to be me. It also awoken me to how evil and manipulative the capitalist system is to teaching greed, taking away the profits of the workers, and dividing up society to fight are all fine. So then I became a Marxist then I read State and Revolution by Lenin which reinforced my knowledge of Marxism and I became a Marxist-Leninist. And then you became a bad trader? Explains so much.
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Post by alwayssunny on Jan 28, 2013 21:08:30 GMT -5
Over the summer I decided to read the Communist Manifesto, and I found it to be very fitting and to be me. It also awoken me to how evil and manipulative the capitalist system is to teaching greed, taking away the profits of the workers, and dividing up society to fight are all fine. So then I became a Marxist then I read State and Revolution by Lenin which reinforced my knowledge of Marxism and I became a Marxist-Leninist. And then you became a bad trader? Explains so much. Nah, I got that awhile ago when the payment got lost in shipping, tried to resend it but the guy already sold it to someone else and got me the bad trader title. Then he deleted himself so yeah! Im stuck with it!
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Post by alwayssunny on Jan 28, 2013 21:17:10 GMT -5
Over the summer I decided to read the Communist Manifesto, and I found it to be very fitting and to be me. It also awoken me to how evil and manipulative the capitalist system is to teaching greed, taking away the profits of the workers, and dividing up society to fight are all fine. So then I became a Marxist then I read State and Revolution by Lenin which reinforced my knowledge of Marxism and I became a Marxist-Leninist. Whats so appealing about Libertarianism? What profit of the workers? Are you saying that the company does not own what the employees produce? Why do the employees own it? They are paid to make the products. I'd see some argument for employees owning what they produce if they were not paid for their duties but they are paid so they relinquish anything they produce to the employer. We leave everyone alone, let them do what they want as long as they harm no one else and adhere to the NAP. 1. Ya know the fruits of your labor type of thing? The workers made and they deserve the money from the profit through government paying for there healthcare, housing, and if they have a child, then there education. 2. Look at the living standards of working class people, they are simply horrible because they have to spend money on bills to keep the water and the heat on instead of food and a better place to live on their terrible wage! 3. The workers own the means of production! not the lazy boss sitting in his shiny golden throne! And by everyone, you leave the elderly to die, the workers to get cheated, the bankers to scavenge the land, the borders to be shut, and the drug addicts to run rampant!
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Post by slappy on Jan 28, 2013 21:59:51 GMT -5
What profit of the workers? Are you saying that the company does not own what the employees produce? Why do the employees own it? They are paid to make the products. I'd see some argument for employees owning what they produce if they were not paid for their duties but they are paid so they relinquish anything they produce to the employer. We leave everyone alone, let them do what they want as long as they harm no one else and adhere to the NAP. 1. Ya know the fruits of your labor type of thing? The workers made and they deserve the money from the profit through government paying for there healthcare, housing, and if they have a child, then there education. 2. Look at the living standards of working class people, they are simply horrible because they have to spend money on bills to keep the water and the heat on instead of food and a better place to live on their terrible wage! 3. The workers own the means of production! not the lazy boss sitting in his shiny golden throne! And by everyone, you leave the elderly to die, the workers to get cheated, the bankers to scavenge the land, the borders to be shut, and the drug addicts to run rampant! Why do they deserve the profit? They exchanged the goods they made for a paycheck. Why does the government need to pay for their health care, housing, education, etc? What claim do they have to other people's money to pay for those things? Yeah, if you want something you have to work to earn money so you can pay for what you want. You don't simply get it just because. If the workers don't like it then get another job. Start their own business where they can be the boss. No need to give labor any part of the profit because they signed away any rights to that when they accept the paycheck. How do we leave the elderly to die? Workers get cheated because they get a pay check in exchange for their work? lol. I don't know what you mean by bankers scavenging the land. What would be the Marxist solution to drug addiction?
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Post by alwayssunny on Jan 28, 2013 22:09:29 GMT -5
1. Ya know the fruits of your labor type of thing? The workers made and they deserve the money from the profit through government paying for there healthcare, housing, and if they have a child, then there education. 2. Look at the living standards of working class people, they are simply horrible because they have to spend money on bills to keep the water and the heat on instead of food and a better place to live on their terrible wage! 3. The workers own the means of production! not the lazy boss sitting in his shiny golden throne! And by everyone, you leave the elderly to die, the workers to get cheated, the bankers to scavenge the land, the borders to be shut, and the drug addicts to run rampant! Why do they deserve the profit? They exchanged the goods they made for a paycheck. Why does the government need to pay for their health care, housing, education, etc? What claim do they have to other people's money to pay for those things? Yeah, if you want something you have to work to earn money so you can pay for what you want. You don't simply get it just because. If the workers don't like it then get another job. Start their own business where they can be the boss. No need to give labor any part of the profit because they signed away any rights to that when they accept the paycheck. How do we leave the elderly to die? Workers get cheated because they get a pay check in exchange for their work? lol. I don't know what you mean by bankers scavenging the land. What would be the Marxist solution to drug addiction? Im sending you a pm so this thread doesn't get locked for arguing
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Post by slappy on Jan 28, 2013 22:11:40 GMT -5
As long as there is no name calling I don't see how a debate about ideologies would be locked.
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Post by Kliquid on Jan 28, 2013 22:13:03 GMT -5
LoL at how badly I would destroy any "Marxist" in an actual philosophical debate about long-term fiscal policy.
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Post by Quanthor on Jan 28, 2013 22:21:06 GMT -5
Straight up independent. I'm not a fan of ideologies and even a lesser fan of ideologues.
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Post by alwayssunny on Jan 28, 2013 22:35:30 GMT -5
LoL at how badly I would destroy any "Marxist" in an actual philosophical debate about long-term fiscal policy. Sure, I dont see how you would since most libertarians go off in a crazy rant during a debate like these two: And this Long-term fiscal policy debate, when do you want to do it? Exchange pms?
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Post by slappy on Jan 28, 2013 22:45:19 GMT -5
LoL at how badly I would destroy any "Marxist" in an actual philosophical debate about long-term fiscal policy. Sure, I dont see how you would since most libertarians go off in a crazy rant during a debate like these two: And this Long-term fiscal policy debate, when do you want to do it? Exchange pms? LMAO. Alex Jones is not a libertarian.
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Deleted
Joined on: Sept 30, 2024 15:17:37 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 22:53:06 GMT -5
Democrat although I just go with what my family is other then that I don't really consider myself anything.
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Post by alwayssunny on Jan 28, 2013 22:56:01 GMT -5
Sure, I dont see how you would since most libertarians go off in a crazy rant during a debate like these two: And this Long-term fiscal policy debate, when do you want to do it? Exchange pms? LMAO. Alex Jones is not a libertarian. Oh yes he is, Wiki puts him as a libertarian and so does he, he calls himself a libertarian!
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Post by slappy on Jan 28, 2013 23:02:01 GMT -5
LMAO. Alex Jones is not a libertarian. Oh yes he is, Wiki puts him as a libertarian and so does he, he calls himself a libertarian! Because Wikipedia is always reliable. He doesn't understand what the term means because he is clearly not a libertarian. But you really shouldn't group all libertarians together and claim Jones represents us all because he's a loon and does not at all.
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pero
Superstar
Joined on: Jan 13, 2011 23:27:15 GMT -5
Posts: 635
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Post by pero on Jan 28, 2013 23:22:22 GMT -5
Independent, somewhere left wing if anything
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Post by Tim of thee on Jan 28, 2013 23:26:44 GMT -5
I am a registered Independent
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2013 0:17:49 GMT -5
Some argue (and probably correctly so) that both parties in America are the same (with a little difference from the center-right to the center-left), but I'd go so far as to argue that all ideologies are the same. Clearly individuals would argue that there's a strong difference between libertarian anarcho-capitalist, leftist socialism/communism (whether anarcho, or government-controlled), fascism, and others, but I would claim that at the heart of these debates as well as any other hot button issue (abortion, evolution, etc.) these are debates we humans create because we must be tribal and pick sides, and are also created out of a primitive boredom and confusion on where to direct energy instead of just letting energy disintegrate. At the end of the day, every ideology results in imperfection, asymmetry, chaos, and lots and lots of disease, starvation, death, and a variety of other things. Millions die in capitalistic, communistic, fascistic systems. They may die with different methods or different ways, but it's all the same. There is no such thing as a "difference," as all humans are the same and create illusory, fictitious differences for tribal reasons (the "left" and "right," or equivalents therein in any nation at any time both benefit from these created differences); humans have too much energy and do too much thinking to ever be on the same page to agree in large ways. Why? Because nature doesn't allow for it. Look at the universe, physics and science illustrate the fact that planets and stars are constantly crashing into each other and destroying one another; humans, from the first cell to now, formed from that same material, part of the same universe and reality. There is no "great answer," no way to make things agree or work symmetrically. The universe is a mish-mash of lunacy and imperfection. The right says everything was great, but is terrible now, and we must return to the old ways to restore perfection; the left says everything was terrible in the past, and we must progress forward to make everything perfect and fantastic; I say everything was terrible in the past, is terrible now, and always will be terrible. This is shown in nations being built, and creating ideologies; racial, religious, political, economic. They all result in death, disease, destruction, and starvation. This will happen regardless of the ideology. So relax! Once you admit that everything is chaos, you begin to not care and enjoy the actual pleasant things in life. Wear Hawaiian shirts, enjoy some 1970s Hannah-Barbera cartoons and screw everything else! Hong Kong agrees.
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Post by Kliquid on Jan 29, 2013 0:50:54 GMT -5
Sure, I dont see how you would since most libertarians go off in a crazy rant during a debate like these two: I'm not sure what Austin Peterson did that was wrong here. Actually I think he sounded like the rational person in this conversation. Hartmann (poorly) attempted to bash the entire libertarian philosophy, misrepresented beliefs, and repeatedly raised his voice. Even the title of the video says, "Thom Hartmann Explodes at Libertarian." So yeah. I ah... I guess you're right...? Crazies on the left, crazies on the right. Crazies everywhere. Can we have an actual discussion now or do I need to post a video of the "ObamaPhone" lady in response to this? Alex Jones is not the libertarian messenger. He runs essentially a shock-jock radio program. By the way, I find it funny how Piers repeatedly asked for the banishment of "assault weapons" in this video while Alex mentioned that it's not the gun that people should be blaming - it's the mental instability that is the problem. Turns out no assault rifles were even used in the Sandy Hook elementary shootings. I wonder when Piers is going to do a show where he talks about that. Because DON'T WORRY AMERICA, he doesn't want to take ALL of your guns - just the "assault rifles that do this kind of damage." What an imbecile. And this Long-term fiscal policy debate, when do you want to do it? Exchange pms? No, I'm perfectly fine with doing it right here on the boards. I don't try to shy away from the things I say by posting them where no one else can see them because I'm very confident that my principles are as consistent as they come. I don't just search YouTube or Google for "bad things to say about ________." I actually, you know, research the topics I'm talking about, discuss the policies with people on multiple sides of the argument and form an opinion based on as much of the evidence as I can come across. I don't just find a photo that says, "RON PAUL VOTED AGAINST MARTIN LUTHER KING DAY" and say, "WELL THAT'S TERRIBLE! WHAT A RACIST!" without looking into WHY he voted that way.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jan 29, 2013 8:44:40 GMT -5
What profit of the workers? Are you saying that the company does not own what the employees produce? Why do the employees own it? They are paid to make the products. I'd see some argument for employees owning what they produce if they were not paid for their duties but they are paid so they relinquish anything they produce to the employer. We leave everyone alone, let them do what they want as long as they harm no one else and adhere to the NAP. 1. Ya know the fruits of your labor type of thing? The workers made and they deserve the money from the profit through government paying for there healthcare, housing, and if they have a child, then there education. 2. Look at the living standards of working class people, they are simply horrible because they have to spend money on bills to keep the water and the heat on instead of food and a better place to live on their terrible wage! 3. The workers own the means of production! not the lazy boss sitting in his shiny golden throne! And by everyone, you leave the elderly to die, the workers to get cheated, the bankers to scavenge the land, the borders to be shut, and the drug addicts to run rampant! So the worker is entitled to both the results of their labor and a paycheck for their labor as well? Why would any employer pay people to produce goods that they (the employer) get no benefit from? That makes no sense at all.
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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Jan 29, 2013 9:12:35 GMT -5
Because Wikipedia is always reliable. Its more reliable the the vast majority of statements made in these political threads. Also, I would love to see a Libertarian-Marxist debate in here. The super right vs. the super left. I'll get the popcorn.
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Post by J12 on Jan 29, 2013 11:19:07 GMT -5
At this point, I truly don't know. When I was younger, I wholeheartedly distinguished myself (and registered as) a democrat, but I don't feel that way at all anymore. While I still side with them on most issues involving individual liberties (pro-choice, pro-gay rights, etc), I in no way support their corrupt nature. The same goes for the Republican party, which, quite honestly, has become a bit of a joke to me.
Simply put, I'm incredibly disheartened and frustrated with American politics and absolutely appalled by what those in power, on both sides of the spectrum, get away with and attempt to force on us. It's disgusting.
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